Black and White are colours too

[Almark]

Hi folks,

I made a short AV to try and highlight that not all AV's have to be in colour, and that black and white are colours too. Sadly it didn't really work. While I knew what I was trying to convey, the message was not clear. I had converted the first three images using the blue, green and red channels. For some reason I thought that some eagle eyed observers might have picked it up, but I was wrong. No one did. Clearly a serious case of me thinking too much!

So; after some discussion at my local AV workshop, John suggested that I add colour to these images, and others suggested I should add some text 'triggers' to link the emotion of the colour and what I was thinking about. I was recently reminded that I had said I would update the AV, but had failed to do so! Therefore, I have had another go. Of course my computer has had numerous re-installs and so on, but I was able to get it it sorted.

I also received feedback, at the AV workshop, about using white borders. Some folk thought it 'framed' the image well (as it does for a single image or print), but many others thought that borders should not be used in AV's as it was a distraction. So I welcome your feedback on this.

On an aside, I have used this AV to illustrate the concept of 'lines from the corners' as just one aspect of good composition. I welcome your feedback on this as well, if you have time!

Click here to Download

[Barry Beckham]

I did raise this point some time ago after I got fedup with people coming to me and saying I like your slide show, but the AV group would never accept borders. Maureen gave me a bit of a telling off at the time, because I think I mentioned that it may have come from the RPS.

However, there is no doubt in my mind that many people are influenced by this view and believe any lines should not be used. I suppose we could argue this till we are all blue in the face and we could out it down to personal preference. However, when I ask these people why, I don't think I have had one who could give an answer. Their views come from what others had told them.

So, why don't we apply common sence and make up our own mind, rather than allowing some know all to do it for us.

If we place images on a black background and the edges of those images sometimes run to black the overall effect doesn't look too good. It almost looks like someone has taken a bite out of the corner. Almark, I hope you don't mind me using your images as a demo. I think a thin line is far better. When we think of images where there is white on the edge and we present them on a white border, we have the same issues.

So, shouldn't the answer to this be, lines are right when its right to apply them and in Almarks case they look OK to me. I would prefer thinner lines, but that is just preference.

AV is all about presentation and I think this issue is a valid part of that presentation.

Is it just me that feels that we can be pushed down an accepted path by the "Establishment" Most of what we choose is a preference and I am not sure it is right to ever hear, a line round an image is not acceptable. As Almark says, much of his audience approved of it.

[jfa]

<snip>....many others thought that borders should not be used in AV's.....<snip>

Well, in all my 30+ years in the AV area I have never heard that one and I am a little, (no completely), complexed as to why not?

I would love to hear an explanation as I cannot see this is a valid point. In some cases it may not be the best choice to use a boarder but I am genuinely interested to find out why some feel boarders should never be used.

By the way Mark I enjoyed your show, (boarders and all), very much, thanks.

[Maureen]

a line round an image is not acceptable

This is not the case!

In photography your eye is drawn to the brightest part of an image.

We take trouble to make sure highlights are not burnt out.

The problem arises when in a darkened room projecting a sequence the image is surrounded by white !

Immediately, the eye is drawn there. This is why judges find it so off putting and such a pity when beginners all put up this white border.

The answer if any border is really preferred or wanted is to choose a suitable colour from the images on the screen which blends in without a sharp contrast or pick a narrow grey line.

I have stated all this here on the Forum in the past so this is nothing new.

How many photographers deliberately insert white highlights into their photography?

Why then do some AV workers think it is OK, especially since their work will be viewed in a darkened environment?

There are very few rules for AV just common sense and advice. Obviously competitions and Distinctions do require some uniformity as judges can't sit through days of 40 minute sequences.

My advice is firstly always create your work to please yourself and to be proud of it.

Secondly don't be arrogant enough to assume you will really honestly interest an audience for more than 10 to 12 minutes without them feeling bored, tired or switching off and dreaming of something else. There are very few exceptions to this and you may be one of the major Oscar winners who should be working in films with Steven Spielberg and making a fortune.

If your subject is so interesting it needs hundreds of images then think about sorting it into "chapters" ie mini interesting parts. Authors don't expect us to read a long book all in one go. Think of your audience and divide the subject into mini AVs which can be linked. This is especially true with family events - divide the wedding intop parts - arriving at the church, ceremony, arriving at reception, group photos, speeches & cake cutting, evening. one Av of the best photos - all under 12 minutes. Then if Aunty Flossie is in one section you don't have to all sit through hours of every picture to show her how good she looked in the photos.

The very hardest part of improving your AVs is not learning new techniques but "killing your baby" - editing out large parts to make it much better and the more advanced you get it doesn't get any easier. You have your absolute favourite images which you must include at all costs and the advice you are given is edit and cut .... it feels llike murder but at the end of the day the sequence gets stronger and far more interesting.

Thirdly if you have an image with text in it, again the eye will be drawn there to read it and brain reads first, listens secondly. If the text is not important either clone it out or blur it.

Again when your images are unavoidably full of clutter - as you could not take a picture of your main subject without it, select your main subject, put a large lazy lasso on it and a large feather. invert the selection and blur out all that clutter. The eye will immediately be drawn to what attracted you to the scene first for your AV.

Your local AV Group, Forums and CDs are all there to help. You can't beat one to one contact and advice so if you can go to a meeting you will learn so much and faster. Even swopping your AVs with more experienced workers can help.

I personally don't find giving points for images, sound, borders, script, etc, etc at all helpful. Go for creativity and forge your own path. Beginners have sometimes taken a great new idea and produced a fantastic sequence. Technique is important only to polish the product so your brain doesn't jar on one element. e.g bad recording so you have to strain to listen so much, you don't enjoy the images.

What is always important is the overall end product.

Hope this helps.

[Almark]

Thanks for the feedback

[Barry Beckham]

Almark

Maureens pointers above are spot on in my view. Especially the length of a sequence.

[Almark]

I agree, the length is most important. I usually go for 3 to 4 minutes. I would rarely go over 5.

Clearly every AV will be created with a specific audience in mind. The audience may be wide, (eg anyone interested in PTE) or narrow (eg a special interest club, hill walkers, family members, or folk that attended a wedding.) However IMHO all AV's must capture the viewers interest.

With the attention span of a goldfish I often hit the 'Esc' button after just 30 secs. However, (albeit rarely) I have also viewed and enjoyed AV's of 15 mins - simply because I was interested.

[JagJag]

Mark (and an explanation for jfa)

Where do I start - at the beginning, I suppose.

I'm the John referred to, a member of the RPS AV Ireland group Mark refers to.

(at this point I have to say that I have just watched the new sequence and, for reference, the old one which I had downloaded some time ago)

We suggested the first 3 slides should depict the Blue, Green, Red in the dialogue but I think what we were suggesting was more along the lines of a colour image where that single colour was the predominate colour, not what has been done, applying a colour layer to an already black and white image. The effect we were after was the 3, single colour, colour images leading into the colour spiral staircase which then blended to black and white and then our eye goes down the steps into the rest of the black and white sequence. Speaking personally I would try this colour to black and white fade as an overall fade and not the corner to corner fade used throughout the sequence.

With regard to the white borders I don't recall it being said "they should not be used in AV". We showed another sequence of all the same size images bounded by a strong white line. We felt that this served subliminally to separate each image from the next whereas the style/mood of this particular sequence was to flow uninterrupted from one image to the next and we felt the white line interfered with this flow. We mentioned that the purpose of the white border on a print was to hold the eye within the print when being displayed in a lighted room with other prints to distract from it but, as I think Maureen has said earlier, and speaking personally, the feeling for me with AV is that, in a darkened room, one wants to be taken through and around the edges of an image into the next image and this is more easily achieved without the white line getting in the way. In Mark's sequence there certainly are parts where a border is necessary because of the overlaying of the images. Here it works for me but that does not mean it works where it is not necessary. The point was made that, when watching TV we don't have a white border; we are held in by the cinematography and the emotion, and so it should be with AV.

Still on the subject of borders, as Barry says "I would prefer thinner lines" and, as Maureen has said, they cause a spectral highlight which draws our eye. My preferred method is to work with a very small % of the image's bigger measurement and apply this all round. I find that using other units of measure leads to the line being to pronounced.

Still on the subject of white, it is distracting. The superimposed text in the early images are not in the original sequence and again, speaking personally, the earlier sequence is all the better for it. Also further into the sequence there is no need for the text "Window Detail". They burn into you and remain in your brain to long. Mark's script, timing, delivery, and images mirroring the words throughout the sequence, is more than enough.

That said this is a lovely sequence and all the above is splitting hairs to give the piece a final fineness. As our colleagues in the IPF AV group would put it, adding the sparkle (a topic they will be discussing at their next meeting)

As a final salute to Mark's excellent work I had already chosen the earlier version to include in an AV Extravaganza I am doing at a few local camera clubs, starting next week, to try and encourage new blood into the art. I hope this is OK with you, Mark, and that you can have Version 3, which should include all of the above, ready before next Tuesday. (you have my personal e-mail and phone number)

PS Please, please, hide the Mouse Cursor in Project Options/Advanced 3rd drop down menu box from top and give the new download the same title as the sequence, it makes for easier filing. (see http://www.picturestoexe.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=10788&st=0&p=69895entry69895)

Also, why is this new version restricted to 1024 X 768 whereas the earlier one ran full screen on my 30" 2048 X 1536 monitor and I would prefer this for all sequences, especially as screens and projectors are more and more capable of running higher resolutions; all to be corrected in version 3.

Hope you will still be talking to me at our next meeting on the 28th.

John

[Almark]

John, thank you for your detailed feedback. You were one of many that offered kind advice and support. I took all the 'advice' and used it as I saw fit.