Extremely vexing problem in PTE 6.0 and 6.02

[Ed Overstreet]

I have encountered a very vexing problem in a PTE 6.0 project (I’ve upgraded to 6.02 and the problem persists there too). I am attaching three different steps to demonstrate the problem (I hope)

The problem arises in slide 10 (and did not arise when working on earlier slides in the sequence).

In the project name Problem Step One, notice slides 10, 11 and 12 on the timeline. They are three different files. Slide one is a 1400x1050 JPG, while slides 11 and 12 are 4000x3000 JPGs, photos of the same object but zoomed out on the camera lens so I can perform an extensive pan and zoom on both of them to form a "superzoom" out of slide 10.

In Problem Step Two I remove slides 11 and 12 from the timeline, using the Remove Slide button after highlighting both slides. (I did the same thing in an earlier slide sequence with no trouble). However, though the file name and preview display from the main timeline, when clicking on Slide 10, says it’s still the same file name and displays the same photo when I'm in the main PTE window, when I open the Objects and Animations window for slide 10, while the correct photo is displaying, the object in the Objects palette has the file name for what had been Slide 12 and has now been removed from the timeline. In spite of this, under Properties>picture dialog the correct file name and thumbnail for Slide 10 is still displayed.

Then we go to Step Four (there was no step three, this was a mis-numbering on my part sorry). Here I have tried to add as new objects in the O&A window for slide 10 the two files that had previously been slides 11 and 12 on the main timeline. But now things are much worse. On the main timeline, I am now seeing the picture from the former slide 12 displayed even though the file name display at the bottom of the main PTE window says it’s the file that was supposed to be in slide 10. When I go into the O&A window, instead of seeing the files that were in slide 10 and former slides 11 and 12, I see in the Objects palette two copies of the file name for former slide 12 and a copy of the file name for former slide 11. The file formerly in slide 10, whose name is still displaying at the bottom of the main screen associated with slide 10, in the O&A window is nowhere to be seen. Moreover, when I click on each of the three objects listed in the O&A palette, only the image from the file formerly in slide 12 appears FOR ALL THREE OBJECTS even though for each object, if I click open the properties>picture link, the three different file names appear to be associated correctly and the correct thumbnails appear in the dialog box.

It is impossible for me to work with this catastrophe. I wanted to do a “superzoom” between the three files, but the displays for them in the O&A window are utterly corrupted. I am supposed to be giving a group presentation on PTE to an audience of maybe 20 persons (all AV producers many of whom are undecided between PTE and ProShow) in three weeks, and this part is going to be an utter shambles and isn’t going to make either me or PTE look very good.

What is the problem here, and how can I fix it? Any ideas, anyone? Preferably very soon if possible.

This is utterly strange, I've never seen this before in PTE.

And yes the problems identified above persist after a reboot, after reinstalling the software, and after removing slides 10, 11 and 12 from the main timeline in step one and re-inserting them, then repeating the processes in steps two and four (as identified above).

I am attaching the *.pte files for all three steps in a zip file.

I realize this description must sound very confusing, believe me the problem itself is very confusing and surreal. Have a look at the attachments, maybe that will make more sense. If anyone from Wnsoft wants to see the three JPGs involved, send me a private email and I'll post the JPGs to you privately. I don't want to put them on a public forum, due to some copyright restrictions (they are photos taken at a local museum on condition that the photos are for personal use and are not in any way to be displayed on the internet, and I want to respect that limitation).

strange problem with PTE 6 and 6-02.zip

[Lin Evans]

Hi Ed,

You need to zip up the entire project complete with images or all we will be able to see are missing photo messages.

If you zip your entire project and post a link for it, and let me know exactly what you want to happen, I'll program it for you and zip it back up and you will be able to see where you may have gone astray.

You can email the link to me at:

lin@learntomakeslideshows.net

Best regards,

Lin

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Ed

In view of the restrictions viewing the pictures and your obvious concern, can you not construct the same sequence in an earlier version of PTE and see if the "fault" persists. Personally I am not able to diagnose the cause of what you say is going wrong due to lack of technique.

Regards Eric

Yachtsman1

[fh1805]

Ed,

I've tried to replicate your problem using 6.01 and cannot. Might I suggest the following:

• Create a new, empty project
  
• Use the "Hawk" method to copy across all the slides EXCEPT the three troublesome ones
  
• Save the project and close PTE
  
• Relaunch PTE
  
• Add "Slide10"
  
• Check the sequence and slide details
  
• File Save As newname
  
• Close PTE and re-launch
  
• Add "Slide11" as object to "Slide10" - NO ANIMATION
  
• Check the sequence and slide details
  
• File Save As newnewname
  
• Close PTE and re-launch
  
• Add "Slide12" as object to "Slide10" - NO ANIMATION
  
• Check the sequence and slide details
  
• File Save As newnewnewname
  
• Close PTE and re-launch
  
• Add animation as desired
  

At least this will tell you at what exact point in the build the problem first appears.

regards,

Peter

[TonyFalla]

Hi Ed

I may have misinterpreted your problem but there is a file naming problem within PTE that has existed for several versions now. I have found that if you replace your original image with another using O&A then the original imnage's file name still appears in the slide list.

An example has recently occurred with a sequence I am currently working on. I wanted two black slides to start the sequence so I created an image Black-Slide and used this as my first two slides. On the second of these I used O&A to show the titles of my sequence. I then decided that it would look better if the first two slides had a border so using Photoshop I created Black-Slide-3.

In PTE I removed the first slide and then inserted Black-Slide-3. On the second slide I went into O&A inserted the image Black-Slide-3 moved it to the back and deleted the image Black-Slide.

Now if I look at my slide list I have

1. Black-Slide-3

2. Black-Slide

Although occassionally causing me confusion as I have an image listed which is no longer part of my sequence the sequence works as intended but then I do not very often use large zooms

Tony

[fh1805]

Ed,

Further to my post above and arising from Tony's post. If you are witnessing what Tony describes then my suggested re-build technique should "clean up" PTE for you.

regards,

Peter

[nobeefstu]

Ed and Tony

There has been several discussion(s) and debate(s) of how PTE names its Objects as seen in the Object List. I suspect the issue(s) you are experiencing is that you when you the change the original image file to another image file ... the Object container tag name used initially to create the object should also change. This is not suppose to happen in PTE current design ... so its not really a bug or problem that needs to be fixed. The current process may need to be addressed with some additonal flexability or tweaking ... but currently its not a flaw or bug issue.

The real issue is just basically understanding how PTE currently (and has always) treats its Objects naming as seen in the Objects List.

Briefly, the Object names PTE uses are just editable tag names of the object container. PTE initially uses part of the image file name by defaualt to create the Obect container name to be displayed in the Object List. If you change/replace the original internal image file used in the object container ... only the image file name has changed and does not reflect changes used in the object container name.

Some users normally expect the Object container name used within the Object List to change whenever there is a new change or replacement of the image file name used. You currently have two options to address this naming issue

1- You have to manually Edit the current Object container tag name to whatever your workflow needs ( Image1 or the ne w filename)

2-Delete the current Object (this removes the object container tag name) and then create a new Object of your new image file in which the Object container tag name to reflect.

As I said, there has been lots of debate of how this Object naming should work or expectected to work. However, there is different work flow and habits for each user and one size does not fit all.

But the bottom line is ... the Object List does not reflect changes in its original container tag name whenever a image file name is replaced.

I will see if I can find the old topics of this discussion.

[Ed Overstreet]

Thanks for the quick replies everyone.

I had a good night's sleep, woke up remembering something I'd done that is probably the cause the of the problem, and came up with a work-around that lets me do what I wanted to do originally, then came here and discovered that Nobeefstu hit the nail on the head.

What I'd forgotten that I'd done before trying to the the super-zoom in a single O&A window (for slide 10) is that originally in my timeline the images were in the sequence slide 12-slide11-slide10 (which would have been a superzoom INTO the scene) and that instead I wanted a superzoom OUT OF the scene. So I used the Change Image File command in the main window to swap slides 12 and 10 into the current position, leaving slide 11 unchanged. I did this much earlier in the edit process and forgot about it.

So the problem I'm seeing is the result of the Change Image File operations that I performed, and probably why in my "step four" it's slide 11 that displays in the O&A window regardless of which of the three objects I click on -- that's the only slide whose original file reference hasn't changed by my Change Image File operations.

I disagree however with Nobeefstu this isn't a bug -- I think it is, or a mistake that should be fixed. If I Change Image File then it seems intuitive to me (as a non-techhie user) that should mean that all the file name references for that file should remain consistent throughout whatever else I do later. For example, the slide C1... that was originally in the Slide 10 slot is now in the Slide 12 slot (where C3... was, with C3... now being in the Slide 10 slot). I then Removed Slides 11 and 12 (file names C2... and C1...) and then opened the slide 10 O&A window. In that window, I Added Image for C2... and C1... by loading them from the Add Image dialog box (which accesses the Windows Explorer menu, where one would think the file names haven't been modified) and that's when all the trouble began with the incorrect file references that I couldn't figure how to fix. It seems to me, in my naive way, that C1... is C1... regardless of what slide-number slot in the main timeline it's occupied in the past, and that when I point to C1... in Add Image in another slide's O&A box, C1... is what I should get, not the mess that I did get. Bug, bad design, call it what you will, it's not even slightly intuitive to me and ought to be fixed IMO. I hate to think what a less patient and less experienced user (like one of the folks in my audience coming up) would do if they ran into this situation, they'd likely run screaming from the room and never go back into PTE. I know that's how my wife would react if she did AV shows (she doesn't); she has much less tolerance for glitches like this than I do. Most of the folks I know are like my wife, not like me, in that regard.

I will post the whole backup zip for this mess on mediafire and email the link to Lin so he can see what I mean; thanks very much for the offer to help, Lin. (If Tony, Peter or Nobeefstu is a glutton for punishment and wants the link, send me a private email and I'll happily provide it to you.) I will also try Nobeefstu's and Peter's suggestions and see if those work for me, and would appreciate any earlier links Nobeefstu might find and post here (I'll keep watching this thread).

The work-around I came up with this morning before logging in, as I awoke, is to work with slides 10, 11 and 12 on the main timeline, doing the superzoom as Lin suggests in his superzoom tutorial rather than trying to do it entirely in a single O&A window for one slide (which is what I successfully did with two other superzoom sequences earlier in the show, but in those cases I HADN'T played any Change Image File games with the slides involved, so there was no problem. Anyway that all-on-the-timeline method did work for me, so I now have a sequence that does what I want it to do, though not quite the way I thought it should have worked ... The file-name references in O&A for slides 10 and 12 are still messed up, but it doesn't seem to be affecting the way the images display on the main timeline, in the O&A windows, or on preview for the show, which is what counts "at the end of the day" I guess.

I don't think this necessarily should be marked RESOLVED because I really really think this aspect of the Change Image File operation ought to be fixed in the software ... to make life a lot easier for future users who might trip over this. Perhaps not a major priority for Wnsoft, as probably not many users will encounter this particular manifestation of the problem, but still ... This is a very confusing and counter-intuitive way for the software to behave re file naming and referencing, at least to my aging non-technical brain

However, at least for my preparation for my presentation in three weeks, all's well that end's well. I just won't mention to my audience the real reason I did the slide 10-12 superzoom sequence differently from the other ones, I'll lie and said I wanted to show there are two different ways of getting the same effect not that it was the only way I could get the software to behave properly before I came back to this thread. But now my demo show does in fact illustrate two different ways of doing a superzoom

[nobeefstu]

The most logical approach to address this function is to implement the adding of a image object to work exactly like the Mask container.

This would make the object naming function conform to a standard. The adding of a Mask was a later added feature in the object development of PTE. PTE has offered here the best for both worlds... to show the container type ( which name is independently editable)and also displays any image changes used within the container. This will also benefit any future development if object grouping is implemented

See the attachment

[fh1805]

Ed,

Please to hear that you've resolved your problem. As to whether it is a bug or not, consider this:

If you had changed the name of the objects using the Common tab before you changed the image files around, would you still have wanted the image file names to replace your carefully chosen object names?

As Stu points out, there is no simple solution to this problem. But I agree with him that it would of great help to us all if PTE was consistent in its naming standards and behaviour.

As regards the names given by default to objects; I'm happy that PTE should assign the image file name as the default object name. But, if I then change the image file for a different one, it seems logical to me that PTE should also change the object file name. However, if I elect to change the object file name via the Common tab then there should be a tick box on the Common tab that allows me to "lock" that object name so that it doesn't change if I assign a different image file.

Between the three of us (you, Stu and me) we should be able to formulate a suggestion to go in the Ideas sub-forum.

regards,

Peter

[Ed Overstreet]

Thanks Peter and Stu. I completely agree with both of you; there needs to be some consistency in the software in handling file naming and keeping them consistent with how they're named in the Windows Explorer window, lest the unwary (like me) trip over the inconsistencies and not understand what the is going on and why. I think a separate post under ideas for next version is a great idea, but I'd prefer one of you to post it, I'm not sure I can word the topic header or the content coherently enough. I know what the problem is (I think) but I'm having trouble articulating it. I just know it's a problem for me, I really don't like it, and I think there are lot of other users out there less sophisticated and patient than I am who are going to bridle big-time if and when they trip over something like this. I won't repeat in a public forum the inventive stream of invective that poured out of my mouth when I first saw this happen

[fh1805]

Thanks Ed. I don't mind doing the post but I'll wait until Stu gives his reaction here before I do anything.

regards,

Peter

[Ed Overstreet]

Thanks Peter.

In the meantime, maybe it might clarify things a little if I paste below a paragraph that I included in my private email to Lin when I sent him the mediafire link to the zip backup of the problem. It's probably a clearer exposition of why I got into this mess in the first place, than my rambles in my earlier posts to this thread:

"I was playing around with superzoom effects to demonstrate to my club (see slides 6 and 8, all effects done in the O&A window for those slides) and was doing zoom-in effects when I thought, why not try a zoom out. I'd already programmed slides 10-12 (in the original layout in step one) as a zoom-in, so I swapped slides 10 and 12 for a zoom-out using Change Image File, then removed slides 11 and 12 from the main timeline and tried to insert them into the O&A objects list for slide 10. That is when the proverbial handcart went merrily off to Hell (see step four). The work-around is also included, which works with the three slides out of the main timeline as (Lin) suggest(s) in (his) tutorial. I now see why (he) went that route in (his) tutorial and not my route Smart move ..."

I had done the image swap several hours (maybe even a day) before actually getting to the O&A work, and when the problem occurred I'd forgot about the Change Image File stuff I'd done earlier. I remembered that when I woke up this morning ...

There no doubt are other circumstances in which this problem can be triggered, but this is the one that I tripped over.

[nobeefstu]

Peter,

Thanks Ed. I don't mind doing the post but I'll wait until Stu gives his reaction here before I do anything.

regards,

Peter

Please make the post in suggestions to start ( or revive) the excitement and interactivity on this subject.

I have been trying to deduce if Igor's comment " - "Go to slide" will support slide names in addition to slide numbers" on the next version has any impact relating to our topic. If Igor is implemeting a addition of something like a Slides common names editing ... I would also fit this into the O&A Object List scheme of things.

[Ed Overstreet]

It has finally sunk into my thick skull that my entire problem was caused by the fact that PTE doesn't update the Name field in the Properties tab in O&A when one replaces a picture in the Object List. It doesn't even do this when one changes the image file using Change Image File in the main timeline, even when there are no other objects in the O&A Object List for that Slide.

I think this is absurd. If I change the image file, certainly in the main timeline Slide point never mind in the Objects List, it seems to me the Name should automatically update. It is far far too confusing for the novice, intermediate or even fairly advanced user to have to "know" that the field needs to be updated manually to avoid confusion, especially when this is not mentioned anywhere in the user manual that I can see. This behaviour is utterly inconsistent, not at all user-friendly, and IMHO utterly absurd.

The Name field in O&A Properties automatically is filled with the correct file name when one first adds a slide to the main timeline. Why should it not automatically update when a Change Image File operation is performed, given this?

I thought I should post this here, rather than in what I hope soon will be a post under Ideas and Suggestions as well, for the benefit of any poor soul who tripped over this bad programming decision, finds this thread, and wonders how to fix the problem in current versions of PTE. It's easy to clear the confusion manually, but you have to know that, it isn't obvious or even easy to know this, and why the should you have to?

I gather from private corresondence there are those who think any changes to the Name field should be manual, but honestly I can't imagine why I or most other users I know would ever want to change a picture in PTE, whether in the Objects List or in the main timeline, and NOT want the name automatically updated appropriately. The current behaviour of the software in this regard defies my concepts of logic and consistency. If someone wants to change the Name to something other than the file name, or for God knows what reason wants it left at the name of the PREVIOUS occupant of that slot in the Objects List (which is what is now happening), put the onus on that person to make the manual change, not the other way around.

My two dollars' worth (I feel a lot more strongly on this than two cents' worth, in case you can't tell)

[xahu34]

... PTE doesn't update the Name field in the Properties tab in O&A when one replaces a picture in the Object List ...

... there are those who think any changes to the Name field should be manual, but honestly I can't imagine why I or most other users I know would ever want to change a picture in PTE, whether in the Objects List or in the main timeline, and NOT want the name automatically updated appropriately ...

Ed,

Here is an example: You have 2 very similar versions of a red house, say Im_4712.jpg and Im_4713.jpg. You load Im_4712.jpg into PTE. In the object list of the O&A window you change the initial object name Im_4712 into Red_House. Later, you decide to replace Im_4712.jpg by Im_4713.jpg. Should PTE now replace the name Red_House by Im_4713

Best regards,

Xaver

[Ed Overstreet]

Ed,

Here is an example: You have 2 very similar versions of a red house, say Im_4712.jpg and Im_4713.jpg. You load Im_4712.jpg into PTE. In the object list of the O&A window you change the initial object name Im_4712 into Red_House. Later, you decide to replace Im_4712.jpg by Im_4713.jpg. Should PTE now replace the name Red_House by Im_4713

Best regards,

Xaver

Interesting. So it boils down to whether in the Object List you prefer to work with the actual file names or to work with some other names you choose to give the objects. Personally, I much prefer working with the original file names, no matter how arcane they may be (thanks to the camera's automatic file-numbering), to keep things absolutely clear in my own mind what picture I'm working with. But I take your point, not everyone works that way.

Which reinforces a suggestion made in private correspondence that PTE's behaviour in this regard should be conditional on the user's choice between some default behaviour ("preserve original Object List names on file replacement") and an alternative ("automatically replace Object List names with new file name, on replacement"). At least that way the user can choose and not be compelled to have to remember to go in and do a manual correction each time, whichever his/her work preference. Also providing this option somewhere, probably in Project Options, would help remind at least some users that there is a choice to be made here ... and that also would provide a place in the user manual to mention and perhaps briefly explain the choice. As I mentioned earlier, at the moment there is no mention of this in the user manual or anywhere else convenient to a user, and IMO there ought to be, since (at least to people like me) the current behaviour isn't logical or at least isn't what I'd expected.