Live Sound recording

[Barry Beckham]

I get a number of questions about live sound recording and while I have done a little using a Pixman portable hard drive I have heard people saying that a digital recorder is very good.

Are any of you using these devices for PTE shows and if so what do you have and how to you rate it.

If you do use one, would it be possible for me to hear a sound file that has been recorded live, I would be most grateful for any current up to date info.

One question I have has come from using the pixman. With the Pixman the on board microphone does pick up a bit of sound from the spinning hard drive, but I suspect that is not an issue with a digital unit.

Do they record good clear sound?

What sound file format do they use?

Are they better when used with an external mike?

Thanks

[Ken Cox]

SEE

http://www.picturestoexe.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7677

http://www.picturestoexe.com/forums//index...;f=2&t=2941

http://www.picturestoexe.com/forums//index...;f=2&t=2935

KEN

[RonH]

I have used a Sony HD recorder the quality of which was really good but it was so fiddly to use and, of course it has a separate hand-held microphone; this combined with the headphones which were vital to ensure that the wind noise was avoided, meant that I was forever tangled in wires. Good old Sony made it as difficult as possible to convert the sound into .WAV files for use in sound editing software.

I now have a Zoon H4 which records WAV files directly onto an SD card. It has excellent built in stereo microphones as well as professional XLR connectors if you fancy connecting a rifle mic etc. It’s not dirt cheap but a lot less than some small hand-held recording devices.

Regards

Ron

[Barry Beckham]

Thanks for the replies so far. I have downloaded the sample, but the ambient sound is difficult to judge. Is there anyone else with some more specific samples.

[fh1805]

Barry,

Ken has already pointed you to the thread where I told about my use of the Zoom H4. It is probably my ambient (Low Barns ambience of birdcalls and a light aircaft fly over) that you have downloaded. What else are you looking for by way of samples? Within reason I'd be willing to make some more samples and post them for you. Be aware that there is now a Zoom H2 retailing at about £150-160 in UK.

[Conflow]

Hi Barry,

Well I've spent nearly 40 years in the 'Sound Equipment Business' both as a user, and a Manufacturer

of equipment for Irish Railways and various 'Outdoor Event Organisers' and let me first say that anything

to do with 'Sound Recording' is very much a subjective business ~similar too~ but not far removed from

Photography,...choices,choices !!

To get you up to speed a visit to:- www.zzounds.com is a must as its the 'Holy Grail' of Semi-Professional

Recordists and the American Music Industry. Open their Web.Page and search down the RH.side for what

you want. (Some "Attachments" below for info purposes) ~ They also 'Export' worldwide.

Names like:- Zoom ~ Fostex ~ Tascam are the 'Recorders' you are looking for.

Names like:- Shure ~ Soundlabs ~ AKG are the 'Microphones' you are looking for.

I use Soundlabs because I've lost too many expensive Mics in the field ~ people love messing with Mics.

Model: G147 Shockproof Super-Cardoid (directional) for outdoor usage and Model: G150 for general usage.

For Mic selections see:- http://www.htfr.com/microphones/

Shure PG-48 (£80) and Shure PG-58 (£60) are the expensive alternatives to Soundlab.

For your type of work you really need a small Multi-Track Recorder ~ examples below.

Brian.Conflow.

PS. I note that Peter is using the Zoom-H4 ~ its a very nice Mini-Digital.

[jfa]

Barry I have been using the Zoom H2 for several months now and am delighted with the results.

I reported on it here:

http://www.picturestoexe.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7677

You can see the stats on it and watch videos on its use here:

http://www.samsontech.com/products/product...6&brandID=4

If you let me know what the subjects are that you would like to hear recorded, I will see if I can make a recording and post it for you to preview.

My wife and I are about to leave on a two week holiday so it may be a little while but I will try as soon as I get back.

[Barry Beckham]

The samples I am looking for are maybe birdsong, or any individual sound, church bells, waves, rain etc

Something that we would typically get from a sound effects CD

I am also interested in how many AV enthusiasts actually use these recorders. I don't tend to see many shows where sound is used.

I don't want to get heavily involved in recording live sound, but would like the opportunity when it presents itself, but I am a bit fussy when it comes to sound and picture quality.

The small hand held unit looks OK, but my burning question is, why don't I hear more examples of this recorder in slide shows, or perhaps I do?

[fh1805]

Barry,

You asked: "...why don't I hear more examples of this recorder in slide shows?"

If the question in your mind really was "why don't I hear more examples of ambient sound in slide shows?" then I suspect the answer is that, for too many people, audio-visual means putting some music as "sound wallpaper" to the images. Taking the next step up, adding a voice-over, is a major leap forward in complexity which few seem willing to take. And in this situation all the recording variables are entirely within the individual's control. The next step, mixing a complex multi-source sound-track that involves outdoor sound bites, is seen as being something beyond the skills of mere mortals. And these are not my views, they are the views expressed to me by members of local camera clubs and photography societies when I visit to show them how easy it is to build an A-V sequence with music and voice-over.

You also asked: "...or perhaps I do?"

I offer you these next thoughts based on having seen many sequences over the last two years at RPS AV events and lasy year's National Championships. If the music and sound combinations on the soundtrack are handled well, the viewer/listener should not be aware of them in a conscious manner. If there is conscious awareness then some aspect of the technique has not been handled as well as it should. Natural sound should sound natural! If it does you will not register it. You will only register when natural sound sounds unnatural.

[Conflow]

Peter & Barry,

Peter: I completely agree with you, I did say to Barry "....let me first say that anything

to do with 'Sound Recording' is very much a subjective business..." and I must say that

I like your description of 'Sound-Wallpaper' ~ how true that is !

Barry: Very few people use Live Sounds in their Slideshows which is a terrible pity as

'live sounds' add a very real artistic input to Slideshow.

You ask why its not used ? ~ Peter has part answered that question, and here is the fill in:-

1)

Sound Wallpaper, yes nearly 98% of Sounds in any Slideshow are simply 'Wallpaper' and are

artificial Studio abstractions of the real thing ~ even TV & Radio Sounds are Studio abstractions.

2)

Live Sound Recording or reproduction is an 'Artform' which takes some considerable time to learn.

As Peter will assure you, you simply don't go out, switch on your Recorder and make a good 'Take'

nothing could be further from the truth. Good 'Sound Takes' need careful planning and a keen ear.

3)

Sound Management plays an extremely important part in the process. Here is a simple example:-

Go to 'live-location' ~ switch on Recorder for 1 minute ~ Now 'Replay' through Stereo-Headphones

and acknowledge the 'ambient-background'. This goes into your Subject Recording as background.

So now you have to choose Microphone dynamics and orientation in order to get that solo-Subject Sound.

4)

Replay Location Acoustics: What you recorded perfectly will not replay perfectly in a Domestic

setting because the acoustics are different that the Source acoustics. To get that perfect you need to add

some 50~75 millesecs of Reverberation to mimic the Source.....Thats why we have Recording Studios.

Dont worry, "Audacity" does this perfectly.

5)

Climatic Conditions: Microphones must be suitable for 'outdoor-usage' and not be influenced by

Fog~Mist~Rain~Cold~Heat, many are, particularily Condenser Microphones.

6)

The 'Human-Ear' is a very strange beast ~ It has the selective-ability to filter out a whole range of sound

artifacts such as: Countryside aurora noise ~ ambient rustlings ~ tyre noise ~ wind noise and the actual

sound of our voices. When we speak,what we hear is not as others hear us. So again one need care when

we make 'Live Recordings'.

Peter has offered to send you some samples from his 'Zoom H-4' he is a generous man in doing that, but

please be aware what he hears on his Sound System IS NOT what you are going to hear on yours.

Speaking as a professional I would never dare send a 'Sample Track' unless it was processed to Studio Standards

but I must commend Peter in his efforts to help you ~ Barry,it is subjective.

Having said all that I wish more people would make an effort in coming to 'grips' with this important art form as

it enriches any Slideshow and lifts it out of the 'Wallpaper' category and makes it truly dynamic.

I hope this has been of some help to those thinking of trying out 'Live-Sounds'...

Brian.Conflow.

[Ken Cox]

This fella has been around for quite some time

http://www.naturesongs.com/

http://www.naturesongs.com/Telinga.html

has a pretty complete collection

but you better have deep pockets for his recommendations

ken

[Barry Beckham]

fh1805/Brian

You are preaching to the converted really , but there are times when live sound could be usefull.

I used to own a Fostex 4 track tape recorder in the old film AV days and I am well aware of ambient noise and how that can destroy any sound recordings.

I tried some recordings of the woodland Bell Birds in Australia with my portable hard drive (Aqua Pixman) and it did a pretty good job. In many circumstances, especially mixed with low volume music those recording would have been usable.

People tell me that digital recorders are better and I would like to explore that, but my thoughts are these. This forum has probably the greatest number of enthusiasts in AV that I know. I am not really concerned about those who don't feel they can add sound/commentary, because they see it as beyond them. As you know its easier than Image editing, thats for sure.

If live sound recording is possible to the quality enthusiasts want, why do I not see it used more often, if we don't see it from this forum, where will we see it. My gut feeling is that while these digital recorders are good, to get something acceptable we need more than those £150-200 bits of kit.

That is really what I am interested in. If I bought a H4 Handy Recorder and went some miles from the nearest road and ambient noise, would the birdsong or running river/surf be of good enough quality to use without music accompanying it.

I am beginning to think that perhaps it isn't, unless we start to lug around a portable recording studio or invest in a second mortgage.

I want good quality from a hand held device, or I will forget the idea.

_____________________________________________________________

As an aside, I don't care much for this term Wallpaper category. It seems to get used as a derogotory remark and I don't feel comfortable with it.

The one great thing about AV/slide shows/presentations call them what you like, is that people can pitch in at any level and get a great deal of pleasure from it. Put a slide show together in minutes automatically or spend all year doing it is a personal choice.

Give me a Wallpaper category slide show with great quality images and I will watch that over and over again and can often prefer those to the more Serious AV. Some serious AV's are not so wonderful and they are not elevated in my view for the inclusion of commentary.

They can be, but I can't see anything wrong with hanging a batch of images to music. KISS

[Conflow]

Barry,

I have seen some of your Productions and very nice they are ~ and of course I realise that you have "been there before" but

other's are reading our Post's and they also might like to see some additional input into this subject from both of us.

Speaking personally and thats all I can do at this point: I personally use an 'Analogue Stereo Recorder' in preference

to a 'Digital Recorder' ~ having said that, once again, I must make the point that Sound Recording is Subjective.

For general 'On-the-Fly' Recordings, there is very little available which will beat a nice Recorder such as the Zoom-H4 not the least because its very adaptable and will accept external Mics and those Mics will tell their own story. The 'Technology' used in 'Digital Recorders' very rarely uses WAV Format because memory size is the limiting factor. It is also quite easy to accidently over-record with these,viz:- Loud shot-noises where 'analog-recording' is quite forgiving. But like everything else, once you watch those 'nuances' there is nothing wrong with machines such as the Zoom-H4 ~ in fact it's excellent for what it is.

I use Analog Recorders because its 'Raw-Sound' I am recording. Cassette's will run for an Hour, same memory size as a CD-Disc. I have absolute control over the 'Sound Editing' ~ in fact I can do anything I like with it ~ try that with Mini-Disc or MP3 etc; also the power demands are easily met with Rechargable AA Batteries. You can also 'edit-on-site' and there are many more peripherals available for Cassette Recorders. Some people make a great play about 'Tape-Hiss' ~ its a thing of the past because 'Audacity' will remove it and Professional Engineers use 'Dolby' to remove it ~ in one single pass, without effecting the sound-bandwidth.

But at the end of the day, its down to Mic selection and the 'Electronic Deployment' of these with a 'Special Mixer' which will give you what you want.

When I am recording a 'Single-Source Sound' its done with Stereo-Mics but rendered to Mono in a Special Mixer (more later) The Mics are a (shockproof) Super-Cardoid and a matching Semi-Directional Mic. The Super-Cardoid can be fitted within a short lenght of 4" PVC Tube which is covered with Rubber Foam (not Plastic). The Directional-Mic can be used as is, or with a Parabolic Reflector.

The Mixer is a 'Subtractive Mixer' where the pick-up from the Directional Mic is subtracted from the Super-Cardoid Mic. Care is needed NOT to subtract all the ambient noise otherwise what was a 'Live Recording' becomes a sterile 'Studio Recording'.

Its a general rule with 'Live Single-Source Recording' never to record in Stereo, this to avoid 'ping-pong' effect in Replay as a result of any single-source movements.

Thats my take on the subject gained from bitter experience over many years recording Machines and artifacts of all types for Surveys and Engineering Reports where the 'sound-sources' were on Land, Rivers, and the Sea ~ the latter being the most difficult.

But it is enjoyable when you have the results...

Brian.Conflow.

[JudyKay]

Brian,

How do you get from analog to digital? From your cassette to your computer? My best attempts introduce hummmmmmzzzzzz.

jk

[Barry Beckham]

This is all getting far too complicated for me, I like simple

I am not interested in using tapes, done that, didn't like it and don't really want to go there again.

All I really need to find out is if a digital hand held recorder is good enough for my needs.

I have no desire to start going into omni directional microphones, I don't understand them, I would not know what to buy and I don't have the enthusiasm to learn about microphones too. I want something much simpler than that and I suspect 99% of AV enthusiasts do too.

If I can't buy the gadget, keep it in my bag and use it when I need to, then I will give up any thought of live sound recording.

An example was the burners I recorded at the balloon fiesta this year. Not quite up to standard with the Pixman, would it have been OK with the hand held digital recorder.

Is there no-one out there with a few examples from one of these machines or an AV where they were used?

Hearing is believing

[fh1805]

Barry,

If you can give me a week or so, I'll take a walk down on the seashore and into the wooded valley not far from where I live and record some "natural sound" for you on the H4.

I would also like to state that I had no wish to offend you or any other forum member with my choice of the phrase "Sound wallpaper". It's just that I firmly believe that A-V is more than just images set to music. To me it should include, when appropriate to the content and theme, voice-over and sounds (natural or otherwise).

For about twenty years I made sequences involving one projector, music and voice-over - and that was enough complexity for me. With the advent of software such as PTE and Audacity I am now moving slowly into more complex sequences. I bought the H4 because I was struggling to get a noise-free voice-over recording. Now, using the H4 I can get a noise-free voice-over. The surprise came when I walked around the nature reserve and pointed the H4 at the birds singing, or just left it to record the sounds coming from all around me. For such a compact little box it delivered what, to me, was absolutely brilliant sound quality.

Be back when I've got some sound captured for you.

[Barry Beckham]

If you can give me a week or so, I'll take a walk down on the seashore and into the wooded valley not far from where I live and record some "natural sound" for you on the H4.

That would be very nice of you, thanks. I really would like to hear what they produce.

I would also like to state that I had no wish to offend you or any other forum member with my choice of the phrase "Sound wallpaper". It's just that I firmly believe that A-V is more than just images set to music. To me it should include, when appropriate to the content and theme, voice-over and sounds (natural or otherwise).

I am not offended, I am too stupid and thick skinned for that. However, I can't really agree with your paragraph above. AV is whatever you make it and at any level. What is basic AV to one person, is advanced to another and we all have to start somewhere. I hear that term or something like it too often and I don't think it is helpful to send out a message that putting images to music is not real AV. That is what comes over when that phrase is used and it can put people off, especially beginners.

I encourage newer users of PTE to do just that, hang some images to music, becuase I know that once they have made a show or two they will be hooked. Then later they may move onto to something more adventurous, but many are quite happy to hang images to music.

For about twenty years I made sequences involving one projector, music and voice-over - and that was enough complexity for me. With the advent of software such as PTE and Audacity I am now moving slowly into more complex sequences. I bought the H4 because I was struggling to get a noise-free voice-over recording. Now, using the H4 I can get a noise-free voice-over. The surprise came when I walked around the nature reserve and pointed the H4 at the birds singing, or just left it to record the sounds coming from all around me. For such a compact little box it delivered what, to me, was absolutely brilliant sound quality.

Be back when I've got some sound captured for you.

Well, if it can create noiseless voice recordings that a great start. I will look forward to whatever you can post.

[Conflow]

Peter,

I agree fully with what you are saying and with the sentiment "when appropriate to the

content and theme" ~ and of course that ranges right across the board from the Novice

to the Professional...we each one of us, are always learning.

Concerning your Zoom-H4 ~ a great Recorder, well up to the job, and with a few "add-ons"

it can tackle most everything. As I said in my previous Post I personally use 'Tape' for other

professional technical reasons which I can't do with a Digital Recorder ~ wish I could.

Brian.Conflow.

[Conflow]

Barry,

I have tried to help you in your quest for a 'Flexible Adaptable Recorder' which would

be as universal in usage as your Main Camera, and then you throw in a caveat,quote:-

.."If I can't buy the gadget, keep it in my bag and use it when I need to, then I will

give up any thought of live sound recording"...Thats fair comment..

But correct me if I am wrong, my assumption is:- That you wish to take the Recorder

from your Bag, hit the 'record-button' and it does it all by itself ? to your requirements?

I have one question:- 'Do you expect your Camera to perform likewise'....I think not !

So whether one likes it or not, one has to become familiar with the equipment being

used and that includes one's Camera and setting it up with Lenses etc,etc; never

mind taking the Photograph...Why should a Sound Recorder be any different ?

Anyway, I hope what I posted was of some help and assistance to those who may

be thinking of 'Live Sound Recording' ~ it's just as fascinating as using a Camera.

Brian.Conflow.

[denwell]

Barry

I have used a minidisc recorder to capture both live sound and to do voice overs - it served me well, but was a little slow in transferrng to PC as it had to be done in real time.

You will have seen my posts concerning the Zoom H2 as a suitable replacement. It has all I would need : no moving parts, small and portable'slips in the bag easily', records digitally in MP3 or WAV onto SD cards, transfers to PC via USB2 and accepts external mics. What more could I want?

I hesitated, but after talking to Peter recently I have just taken delivery (£130 or so if you shop around).

I have just used it to record live sound and interviews at a local living museum in preparation for another AV project.

The quality is much better than I anticipated - and it's so simple to use and takes up no room at all in the camera bag.

I shall be carrying it with me all the time from now on. You're right of course - simplicity is the key.

I have held the same views as Peter regarding many, many presentations where the music is an add-on to a set of images - wallpaper if you will. A good AV with a mix of appropriate live sounds and good music and/or voiceover is a pleasure to experience - that's not taking anything away from your own productions Barry which, as we all would agree, are excellent but I feel you're testing us here - you surely have seen many super presentations ( really what should we call them?) which included 'real' audio as well as music.

Each to his or her own skills limits - nothing wrong there.

I hope this thread runs as we should be debating the whole package - not just the software and hardware but the artistic content ( images and sound ) of the final product to be enjoyed.

DEN (NE UK)

[Conflow]

Judy,

You said..."How do you get from analog to digital? From your cassette to your computer?

My best attempts introduce hummmmmmzzzzzz"...jk...There are 2 questions here.(BK).

Yes Judy you are correct,most people who do this experience "Hum" for many reason's and

the most likely causes are:-

1) Mains induced 'hum' on an unscreened connector cable between the Recorder and PC.

2) If its a 'Mains Powered Recorder' try reversing the Mains Plug if its a 2.Pin Plug.

3) Sound signal level from the Recorder is way too low for the PC Line Input socket.

4) There is no common "Earth" ~ particularily with a 2.Pin mains Plug. Connect a wire from

the PC Metal Cabinet to the Recorder Chassis or its enclosure if its Metal.

5) Make absolutely sure that the PC is actually "earthed" via its Mains Plug.

How do you get from analog to digital ?

Well I have a Sound-Mixer Desk and when I finish primary Tape Editing I send the corrected

Recording to my PC. On that PC I have a good 'Software Recorder' which allows me to record

the edited Tape into any 'sound-format' I choose, be it WAV~MP3~WMA etc.

Also the sound editing program: Audacity...will do the same job without the bells & whistles

and its Free Software.

Alternative to above:

You could also use an "iMAC Audio Input Adapter" ~Suitable for Macs and Windows PCs'.

This 'Griffin Audio Module' simply plugs into any USB Port and you connect your Audio Source

to it and it does the rest. Costs in U.K £30.

See "Attachments"

Brian.Conflow.

[davegee]

If you can channel your cassette output through something with an OPTICAL DIGITAL output such as a MD Deck then EDIROL make an OPTICAL TO USB adaptor which I use to eliminate MOST problems. Tape noise has to be dealt with by either Audacity or Audition noise filters.

DaveG

[Barry Beckham]

Denwell

Couldn't have put it better myself. That all I want, Just what you describe, nothing complicated.

Conflow

Well, yes I do expect the same from my camera, but that is a little different. I have had 30 years to learn all about those. I don't want to have to do that with sound recording.

Denwell, has summed up just what I want and I would love to hear some samples.

[Tomuk]

You could also use an "iMAC Audio Input Adapter" ~Suitable for Macs and Windows PCs'.

This 'Griffin Audio Module' simply plugs into any USB Port and you connect your Audio Source

to it and it does the rest. Costs in U.K £30.

See "Attachments"

Brian.Conflow.

[JudyKay]

You are all immensely helpful. Its like having lots of pockets and walking around in a diamond mine.

Thanks!

jk