Urmas

Maybe sRGB as default. Since sRGB is most widespread space. All images coming from compact cameras (and phones) are in sRGB. Another option is to run through few questions during setup like: do you have calibrated display etc. Actually is is wise to guide users politely towards color managed workflow. The results are always better.

Thanks for another good effort. It works as intended. On my Adobe RGB capable display: ProPhoto RGB source file: #1 no color management - dull colors #2 assuming sRGB output - oversaturated colors #3 reading automatically my monitor calibration profile - correct colors. Just for educational purposes (for those who are not yet familiar with color management background): sRGB source file: #1 no color management - oversaturated colors #2 assuming sRGB output - oversaturated colors #3 reading automatically my monitor calibration profile - correct colors. Adobe RGB source file: #1 no color management - almost correct colors #2 assuming sRGB output - oversaturated colors #3 reading automatically my monitor calibration profile - correct colors. Actually there is very minute difference between #1 and #3 with Adobe RGB image. The most probable reason is different rendering intent applied by Windows color engine. Using proper profile works best. As for practical implementation for color managed workflow just few thoughts: 1) When building slideshow, all images (jpg-s) should have the same color space. It is not good idea to mix different profiles. Makes color management a lot easier. User defines color profile in project options and when adding slides PTE could just check and warn in case of profile mismatch. I do not expect PTE to act as profile converter. 2) png and bmp images do not have profile information. However, when you prepare them on Adobe RGB capable display and use them together with Adobe RGB jpg-s, PTE can safely assume everything being in Adobe RGB. And the same principle applies for everything in sRGB workflow. 3) Video files have slightly different color profiles. There is a bit more mess in the video world with different codecs etc. Most out-of camera DSLR videos are probably close to sRGB colors. However, when you edit videos, you can always find suitable output profile matching Adobe RGB gamut. There is a nice video player called Media Player Classic (freeware) and it has color management. So, if the video objects could be color managed separately within the slideshow - excellent, if not, there are workarounds for experienced users just like with bmp-s or png-s. 4) It will be good idea to have four output profile options in PTE - #1 No color management - as it is now. There is no need to confuse those, for whom color management is initially to complex. They must have time to adopt. Could be default choice after installation. #2 Select manually sRGB monitor profile - again, just for easy start, a preselected choice. Also usable, when you happen to present your show in uncalibrated small gamut environment. Just a quick choice. sRGB profile could be included in PTE installation. #3 Select manually any (installed) output profile - somewhat replicates also #2, but you might want to prepare the show for different particular environment than your own monitor or projector. Might be good for testing purposes as well. #4 PTE (EXE) reads automatically current display profile. Or active display profile in case of two monitors. 5) In case of exe files #1 Automatic display profile reading and using is the best and should be default option in color managed slideshows. #2 If no display calibration profile is set in OS, then reasonably safe is to assume sRGB. #3 If the slideshow has been built without color profile settings, then exe can't use any profiles, it means exe can't be color managed as well. Just as it is now. #4 Probably there might be a good idea to have some hotkey to open output color management menu settings and have choice manually select output profile when executing the exe file. As for best and probably most used workflow with color managed PTE would be using Adobe RGB slideshows. If you use Adobe RGB monitor or projector, you can have full use of Adobe RGB color space. If you show Adobe RGB slideshows in color managed sRGB (or even lesser gamut) devices, oputput colors are correctly transposed to target space and the show colors is still accurate.

Yes, the internal structure of these files is the same. So the profiles can be read and used by different software. And I can even apply my monitor profile to rgb images in Photoshop. But it is highly unlikely, that standard Adobe RGB profile describes and takes into account your particular monitor hardware white point, brightness, contrast and color properties. Even high end monitors must be calibrated again after some use. Usually once or twice a year is enough for new monitors, more frequently for older ones.

As much as I have read and understand color management, using AdobeRGB1998.icc as monitor profile does not work. That profile is to be used by image editing software when describing colors. If you trust your monitor factory calibration, then you should have proper monitor profile (usually having icm extension) associated in Windows. You will get it automatically when installing display driver (or find necessary profiles from the software disk that came with the monitor). BUT No hardware factory calibration is ever perfect. The proper way to get your monitor color managed is to calibrate your monitor with calibrator (X-Rite or ColorSpyder). During calibration required icm profile will be created automatically and you can use it as correct profile for your monitor. The same procedure applies for projectors.

Many thanks in advance!

1. As far as I have read and experienced, sRGB is not (or does not need to be) Windows internal color space. Windows assumes by default, that RGB values without color profile, are in sRGB and treats them accordingly. For example that's why Windows icons look oversaturated on wide gamut display - bmp-s do not have color profiles and the same RGB values result different color in Adobe RGB space. To multiply RGB values from 30:30:30 to 60:60:60 there is no need to consider color profile at all. Math is always the same. But the resulting colors, either 30:30:30 or 60:60:60 are different with different profiles attached. It is important to understand, that no RGB colors are absolutely defined unless particular color profile is attached (or assumed). Actually, in Windows 7 (presumably in 8, don't remember about Vista) you can define any color profile to be Windows default under advanced color management settings. The only thing it changes, is how Windows treats RGB values without color profile. 2. Color management is not the case of using wider color space only. Also slideshow with sRGB images need color management for proper output. The idea behind color management is to match input colors to output device gamut as close as possible. You need calibrated displays/projector for it to understand and use it. And you need to work with images having color profile tags. Color management is an universal concept and universal need. As your small test application clearly showed, you can have an input file of any RGB space, the profile is understood, corrected with monitor profile and displayed at its best. The same method works universally. Definitely, the key is to have both PTE preview and exe color managed. Although, when color management module is added it should be usable everywhere. You are right about 8-bit ProPhoto RGB image gradient problems. Nobody in pro world uses ProPhoto RGB with 8-bit images. And for practical purposes it is still reasonable to limit PTE input with 8-bit images (16-bit doubles the file size) since most video card output will be 8-bit anyway for a while. 10 bit is coming very slowly. So it rules out using ProPhoto RGB yet. But 8-bit Adobe RGB images do not have any of those problems in practice. And to repeat once again: color management is not about sRGB or Adobe RGB color gamut. It is about matching input colors to output device colors as close as possible. Once the workflow is color managed, you can use either color spaces on any calibrated display/projector. And get best possible results. And when hardware enables to start using 16-bit images, color management is still the same.

YES! That's exactly we were talking and longing about! Just for the curiosity, tested your small application with images having different profiles (sRGB, Adobe RGB, even Whacked RGB) and on two different computers (both Win7 Ultimate 64-bit), desktop computer with NEC PA241w (Adobe RGB gamut), Dell M4400 laptop with nearly Adobe RGB gamut display and laptop with projector (LV-8320) with nearly sRGB gamut. Everything calibrated. And results were as expected - color management works and results are as accurate as is particular workflow. Cant wait PTE to be color managed. And as a byproduct - the small test application you made, is an excellent tool to show to the audience the importance of color management. Many thanks Igor for that already!

Actually I think, the impact on performance would not be that large if at all. The color aware software knows (reads) the source profiles of the images and videos. When rendering final image to be displayed through color managed OS, all the software has to do, is to pass that profile information over to OS. The OS now accomplishes necessary conversion on the fly as the pixel values are sent through the video card to the monitor. The only problem I see, could be users mixing images/videos having too large diversity of different profiles. But when compiling slideshow, PTE can warn users in case of too many profiles or missing profiles. Just like it does excellent job checking videos and offering conversion options.

Your suggestion was to convert images to particular monitor profile. It is cumbersome workaround and can be used only by yourself. You need a source project with 16-bit ProPhoto RGB images (not supported by the PTE at the moment) or if you are not that kind of purist, Adobe RGB will do (although my cheap LV8320 projector can display better yellows that Adobe RGB). Then each time you have to convert all images to destination color profile for particular environment. It is a workaround but only for yourself. Imagine Photoshop or other image editor not being color managed and having suggestions endlessly convert your images to particular device profile... It will end up in total mess. Imagine you have made an exe to be distributed and used in schools as educational material. And some schools have knowledgeable IT specialist and they have calibrated projectors. There is no way to convert images but why should they be punished? The only solution is to add hotkey to open corresponding menu to set color management settings. And/or you can set any software to check and use operation system color management settings. That's why I made suggestion to PTE developers - implement color management. During its development PTE has been always a resource demanding software with clear dedication to high quality presentations. For a while it had even two options - with or without hardware acceleration. On less powerful computers you could not use particular features. If the color management on the fly could affect some animations, just add two options like earlier - these features can be color managed, and these can't. The users can make their decisions. I can survive with a bit less bells and whistles in return for accurate colors. Or to upgrade hardware like earlier days. Actually I doubt, that color management implementation has that large impact on performance. Let Igor tell us his opinion.

Color management means, that in the process of displaying particular media, both, the input media color space (image or video file color profile) and output device calibration profile (screen or projector color capabilities) are taken into account. Correspondingly the best available possibilities and capabilities to show color information are analyzed and used (on a fly). And the image on the monitor or screen is as correct as possible under the particular presentation environment. Today the color management is a useful feature in multimedia software. Some have it, some not. Tomorrow it is the must feature defining which product survives and which does not. As simple as that. So far PTE has been excellent product and its capabilities of high quality transitions and animations are state of art. Introducing style features recently has been long waited valuable and useful feature. No complaints whatsoever. Hats down from Igor's team. I have been happy PTE user for years. And I am sure, they can incorporate color management into next PTE release. I hope color management is on top of their ToDo list.

Dear jt49 and cjdnzi, and most of all, dear Igor! Color management means, that in the process of displaying particular media, both, the input media color space (image or video file color profile) and output device calibration profile (screen or projector color capabilities) are taken into account. Correspondingly the best available possibilities and capabilities to show color information are analyzed and used (on a fly). And the image on the monitor or screen is as correct as possible under the particular presentation environment. The world is not perfect. It is the common myth, that computer displays show full sRGB. No, it is not the case. Even today the average computer (especially laptop) screen or average classroom projector rarely is capable to show 100% sRGB colors. Just default color management, built into Windows operating system assumes default sRGB input. The output colors are as diverse as is the list of computer screens and projectors. And majority of users don't know or don't care. However, knowledgeable users know, how to use color management and how to get the best possible and repeatable results when displaying images. And to get best possible results, we must use color management even when our images are in sRGB color space. Not to talk about Adobe RGB or ProPhoto RGB. Maybe 10 years ago, the Adobe RGB monitors and projectors were extremely expensive. Used rarely even in professional world in well paid projects. Today you can buy Adobe RGB capable devices for the reasonable price. In 2012 I paid for the PA241w wide gamut monitor less money than I paid for for the Apple Cinema Display (sRGB) in 2007. Adobe RGB is not as bad, as Ken Rockwell stated in 2006. In 2009 Ken Rockvell also stated, that shooting raw does not give any reasonable benefits over jpg. Today the color management is a useful feature in multimedia software. Some have it, some not. Tomorrow it is the must feature defining which product survives and which does not. As simple as that. So far PTE has been excellent product and its capabilities of high quality transitions and animations are state of art. Introducing style features recently has been long waited valuable and useful feature. No complaints whatsoever. Hats down from Igor's team. I have been happy PTE user for years. And I am sure, they can incorporate color management into next PTE release. I hope color management is on top of their ToDo list.

I would like to save the set of properties of objects from "Objects and animation" window as a (custom) style. And then apply the same (or another) saved style to a new object. Like text in editors users can define their own set properties as a style and then reuse it or change the style and all objects with the same style change as well. At the moment the templates feature or simple copy and paste enables to clone the same set of properties and replacing text and/or images applies the same properties to a new object. It would be real benefit being able to edit the style and correspondingly change the properties of all objects with the same style in the same slideshow or (re)use the same styles in another slideshow. For example, I create an educational slideshow with explanatory text appearing on slides. However, after completing the slideshow, It appears, that there is need to change lets say font or fine tune some animations of all text. Or there appears need to fine tune some animation properties of picture (video) objects on several slides. Some of such tasks can be done with editing the pte text file directly. Some changes are difficult of impractical in this way. Having possibility to create, edit and apply styles when seeing it on monitor, would be really helpful.

I see, that this thread has a lot of misunderstanding going on. I see, that PTE really needs to incorporate color management (being aware and taking into account color profiles of images and output devices). At the moment we have workaround using sRGB (as default) profile in images. However, modern (wide gamut) monitors and projectors are capable to display full Adobe RGB gamut already. Using only sRGB color gamut is becoming disadvantage.

Haven't you tried to convert PTE video output to another format, usable in Sony Vegas Pro? There are many video converters available.

I'll strongly second to that. Wide gamut devices are already here.

Yes, it is possible to use some video editing software and put together stills and video already now. However, if you use PTE to show a still image for 5 seconds, it results in file size of just that one image file plus few lines of commands. It you use video to show the same image for 5 seconds, it results 5*25 (or 24 or 30 depending on your output frame rate and resolution) times the size of the image. It means, if you need to use 20 seconds of video in 10 minute slideshow you actually result in 10 minute video clip. Here the file size gets unnecessary large and ability to integrate still images with video without rendering still images to video stream is of real importance and real space saver. Still images are here to enable a viewer to see high quality details, to go into the picture. Video is to show movement. Being a nature photographer I realize the importance of both and really wait for the possibility to integrate still images with video in PTE. Hope it can be done.

With the inclusion of video capabilities info DSLR-s soon we will be able to take a photo and consequently record a short video clip. Consider following slideshow: nice butterfly on photo suddenly starts moving and after some seconds butterfly flies away. And after that video transits into still photo and slideshow continues until maybe next movie clip. I think, here we have many interesting possibilities for innovative slideshows. Here follows the idea: how about the possibility to include video objects together with jpg-s into the slideshow? Urmas

Tested Beta 5 (Vista Ultimate) and everything seemed OK. Like the new features. Thanks, Igor!

Seems, that solution provided by ATI does not solve all problems. I have laptop from Twinhead Durabook series (2 year old) and a new ATI driver says "Hardware not compatible". Although it has Mobility Radeon 9600/9700. Meanwhile future gamma fix provided by Igor in PTE worked fine and restored calibration profile for the show. So, I will probably have to wait until new release of PTE with ATI gamma fix.

Profile fix works fine on ATI Mobility Radeon 9600/9700 series.

There is often need to make same slideshow for different language audience. With present PTE I have to make separate slideshows for each language. That actually consumes space and text has to be edited newly for each presentation. It would be real space-saver and time-saver to have the ability to create different sets of text for same slideshow and to switch between them during presentation. Something like using subtitles on DVD but being able to define position and style for text objects on each ślide. Urmas

I just bought a new computer with above mentioned Video Card with passive cooling. Vista Aero runs smoothly. And PTE 5 slideshows are just perfect.

Steve, after upgrading my NVidia video card (7600 GT) and display (23" ACD) my desktop computer calibration works perfectly with PTE 5.0. Still a problem with my laptop ATI card and calibration. While I do not do photo editing on my laptop, I have this problem only when using video projector used to present the show. Display calibration would be meaningless for video projector anyway. On the other hand, modern projectors have many opportunities to have "internal calibration" via menu.

Will wait for that. Maybe initially would be easier to make backward transition work when no animations are used with the slide. I need such effect often when giving lectures about photography. When comparing photos with different settings with each other, it is very nice to move forward and backward to show show what changes happened. And here I do not need any animations. Urmas

Manual transition question. In old (4.48) version when I change slides manually forward or backward during show, same transition effect is applied to both directions. For example I mostly use Fade option. In ver 4.48 both, forward change and backward change is with fade effect. In ver. 5, transition effect is applied only to forward change. Forward change is fade, but when I go backward, transition is simple quick transition. Is this caused by limitations if new engine or could ver. 5 backward transition to be made act as in ver 4? Urmas