DRAWING THE LIGHT

[Barry Beckham]

John

I have always assumed differently than that and if we stop and ask ourselves why we post anything on the internet, particulalry an enthusiast website it is to reach a wider audience and get a response isn't it? If we posted a show here and no comment was ever made, it would be quite disappointing. Well, to me it would as I do try to please most of the people most of the time while still pleasing myself too.

If we saw an introduction thread that attracted no response at all we would all think that was strange wouldn't we. I have always (wrongly it seems) assumed that the posting of the show on this forum was an invitation to comment, but as the old saying goes "assume makes an ass out of u and me"

Well, it all now seems rather confusing as some authors welcome comment and some (obviously) do not, but how does one tell? The only safe way is keep quite unless you can be positive about all aspects of the show.

Perhaps the safest way is to have two categories for posting shows, one for those who invite contructive comments and those who don't.

Staying with only positive comments, is worthless because no matter how experienced or skilled you are, others (even those unconnected with photography) can have a genuine comment and often they can be right too. My grandmother has never driven a car in her life, but she knows when one is being driven badly.

I for one fall repeatedly into the Self Indulgence trap and we often need someone not connected with our project to shake us out of that with a contructive comment.

Moderators

Is it worth considering another place for authors who welcome comment so we avoid any upset in the future. This may not be the best place for this reply, so please move it if you think it appropriate.

[jfa]

Barry

You make some good points most of which I agree with.

I have always viewed this section of the forum as a public exhibition where anyone can post their work, and as with a real exhibition, unless the maker is present at the exhibition they will not get any feedback on their work from the viewers.

Perhaps the norm here should be

"All comments welcome positive and/or negative unless stated otherwise".

and it should be part of the section heading.

EDIT 10min later.

If a poster does not welcome comment they simply add "no comments please" to their post.

The current section heading does read

"Announcements of new slideshows and discussions"

[Barry Beckham]

John

I always look on a forum in a similar way to Photographic club, particularly one like this forum where there is a fair number of core contributors. We come together to share a common interest and critiquing is the core of any photographic club as many will know and it has been accepted here (in the most) for as long as I can recall.

It was the critiquing and comments that helped me over the years and I always welcomed it. I didn't seem to have any problems when a judge didn't see my image/slide show quite as I did and I either accepted the comments or not. I have to say that on some occasions the comments did seen easier to understand after some weeks had passed. As the years passed I began to understand why. The self indulgent mist that was clouding my judgement had cleared by then and I was able to take others views a little more easily.

However, I also experienced a number of people who got so upset at comments made about their work that they left the club. Once wonders why they ever entered images at all. Well, I have a theory that they were looking for adulation and when it didn't come they threw their dummy out of the pram.

I have a test for any slide show I make. When complete I place the exe on my desktop and I play that slide show at least once a day for a week to 10 days. If after that time I feel no changes need to be made I will publish the show.

The truth is I never make it, there is always something to be found and when I break that rule someone else always spots what I should have done and I kick myself for being impatient.

The trouble is there is no emtion in the written word and that makes it so easy to read into the words what is not there. Then someone assumes a motive is there, which isn't and replies accordingly. That's how arguments start. Forum members should realize that before they put pen to paper, so to speak. They could be wrong couldn't they?

[LumenLux]

This forum excels with less arbitration/moderation than any I have ever seen. Even this discussion stands at a very "high level" in terms of respect among the participants. As suggested, any form of communication carries a risk of misunderstanding. Sometimes there might be less conflict if things were mis-understood. The thing that remains clear is that this forum exists for communication among the members. We should continue to welcome any discussion that a writer intends to be helpful. As the purposes of sharing a presentation are many, it should be up to the poster to indicate any expectations or desires relative to his shared work. If we are really "in tune", all discussion here will serve to improve our own work - at least in our own mind.

[cici]

Hello Sam, Would you be able to post a Mac version? I would love to see your presentation. Thanks Bill

Hi Bill,

here is the link, hope it works

http://www.mediafire.com/?qzxiz03mnnz

I did not save the Ebglish project.

Anyways, here are the translation of the french animated titles appearing in this order , on the first page

10 years railworks

Rail traffic never interrupted

New Station LIEGE)GUILLEMINS

Work by SANTIAGO CALATRAVA

10.000 Tons Steel

33.000 m2 glasses

30.000m3 concrete

for

Drawing the light

Thank You for your interest

[cici]

Hi Sam

My comment about the length of your show, was aimed at posting it on this forum. Many of the members of the forum are camera club members and usually six minutes is normal for submitting a show and tolerance level.

For myself, the length of a show is determeined by the content & audience. I have a public show a week Monday which is 65 minutes long but split into two halves.

Are you going to tell us how you did the escalator effect?

Please don't get the wrong impression about this forum, there are more sympathisers than knockers.

BTW I think the word critique has a different inferance in English, it has been mentioned before on here by French members.

Regards Eric

Yachtsman1

Hi Eric,

I know very well what's the general opinion about duration but as you I considere length of a show is determined by content.

Many years ago I had to present for days, a 1 hour show but people had to whatch at it standing!

About 200-300 people each day, and you could hear a fly flying. Never anybody went out before the end. And it was always a big ovation.(But never I could know if iit was an actual standing ovation or just an ovation, lol)

So, a good show is not a show less than 6 minutes but it's a problem af content and almost quality.

As far escalator effects are concerned , I just draw two small lines and saved them as transparent gifs which I entered as "objects" choosing for each one 5 Key points in the " O/A " window. But I had to correct their direction helping me with 3D parameters.

I thank you for yor interest and wish you good Luck for your next presentation;

Friendly

[cici]

HI cici thank you for your reply, I think you really need to read all of my post to understand the point I make, which is:

If people post their work on this forum, do they want comment, constructive or critique or other wise, or are they purely seeking adulation?

It would be nice to know this, so that I dont have to bother posting if this is not what is required.

Hi morturn,

what does this mean?

"However if a show is posted here on WinSoft, then the author is testing the water, they are inviting comment;"

Are you sure of this?

Regards

[cici]

Hi John

Hi morturn

Hi bbdigital,

the actual problem coming out from this discussion is not to know if somebody welcoms or not

positive/negative comments, but just a way making them.

"

However for someone who thinks architecture is nothing special this AV may be a little long."

John, this is your way, and I was very impressed by your gentleness.

Now, please, compare your style, and almost your spirit to bbdigital ones

Your way is reflecting your respect , in this case, for me.

But do you find the same spirit in bbdigital's comments?

I personnaly have no preblem with negative comments if they are done respecting my pmerson. For sure I'll reply but correctly.

So, the actual problem is just a question of respect.

Regards

[cici]

I'm not sure what the argument is about here but I thought this was fantastic. As a photographer of many years, the photos fitted the theme of leading lines and to me, were very well done. Was it really nine minutes? I had to watch it twice and time it the second time around. Even watching it for the second time and timing it, the time went very quickly and I was surprised it was nine minutes. A very enjoyable nine minutes too. The music to me was fine since the images reminded me of the architecture of church interiors. Fantastic images. Fantastic timing. Fantastic show. In the words of John Barrowman - Fantastic, Fantastic, Fantastic!

Put simply, I would love to do a show like this. Give me a few weeks.

Edit. Just watched for a third time and counted just 65 images. None of them repetitive as mentioned in the argument.

Hi Freegle,

wel, thanks a lot for your so "fantastic" enthousiasm about my show.

I'm wayting for your next show and I'll be glad to watch at it.

Please, mail me when ready

Thank you again

[JEB]

Hi,

Firstly I would like to say that I enjoyed this sequence immensely.

I wish I could take such wonderful pictures. I do like architectural images both ancient and modern and for me you appear to have portrayed a mood of grandeur that I find exciting. I don't know if I'll ever have the opportunity of visiting Liege but if I do you have given me a very good excuse for going by rail!

I'm truly sorry that personal differences have tainted this thread, particularly as I generally respect the opinions of all parties concerned. Perhaps language has played its part. Despite this and for what it's worth I will give below my opinion. I do this in part because I believe that as has been said above anybody posting a show generally does so in order to receive the views of others and also because it helps me to see how my views compare to those of others.

Normally I would not take the trouble to download a show of more that about six minutes, unless the title particularly interests me. In this instance it did and to be perfectly honest the comments above also encouraged me to do so. I DID NOT find it too long nor if there were any repeated images did I notice them.

It's difficult now to be certain that I have not been influenced by what has been said by others but I do wonder if the opening sequence of framed images was necessary. I liked it though for me, perhaps if it had been slowed down a little and if "smooth" had been applied to the motion, it would have worked even better.

Regarding the music, I thought it worked very well indeed and certainly augmented the cathedral impression of the images which I would have thought was the objective. If I have any criticism of the music it would be with the Handle piece, only because of the use of words which to my puritanical upbringing sounded just a little bit out of place in a railway station. I have no problem with the use of religious music. However, as a native English speaker who can understand the words they add a third dimension which on this occasion are just a little bit distracting.

I hope you do not mind but from time to time as part of my campaign to encourage members of my camera club to take up AV I show the occasional sequence. I will undoubtedly use your show at some stage as an excellent example of an architectural topic.

Thank you for making this sequence available to the forum.

Regards

John

[xahu34]

cici,

I personnaly have no preblem with negative comments if they are done respecting my pmerson.

I would like to say that reading this thread gives rise to some doubts!

... but this does not mean I’ve nothing to say ...

... I’ve a more important photographic and AV back ground and especially a more prestigious one than yours: this just to demonstrate to you the efficiency of my method doing pictures or slideshows, and that in these matters I perfectly know what I do ...

... If I take off a single picture from my show, it has no more sense. There are no repetitive pictures, all the pictures have a reason to be there ...

...Quality of pictures is perfect ...

...

You seem to consider yourself as an AV artist of first degree. So, I wonder why you present your art in this rather technical forum. What about sending your work to Hayange, Epinal, Trophée de Paris, Villingen-Schwenningen (Medienfestival), ... ? This may give you a hint where your position is among the very best!

Regards,

Xaver

[Barry Beckham]

Cici

As I have already said, there is no emotion in the written word and had I made my original observations to you in person, there is no way you would not have been upset, I am not that type of person. I apologise for my phrasing, but I would like you to understand there was no intention to be less than diplomatic. Having said that, if someone does say something which you or any other forum member feels is out of place, isn't it better to ask for clarification before assuming the worst and then reacting accordingly.

Another point missed, especially by Eric is the fact that I don't actually dislike your sequence I think it is fine. Had I visited that place I would have done much the same as you. I like the building, the sweeping lines and the general photography, but my approach would have been different from there as I have already (not very well it seems) said.

I still think that there needs to be clarification regarding shows posted here, but there seems to be a roaring silence on that matter.

I know very well what's the general opinion about duration but as you I considere length of a show is determined by content.

I hope I don't upset you again, but I am not sure I could go along with what you say above. What makes a batch of images interesting is often determined by what the author decides not to show. In other words what they edit out. What I have in mind here is the family friend who visits you following their holiday and insists on showing you every image they shot on their holiday, all 500 of them. Some of us would rather slit our wrists than sit through torture like that. Of course we are far too polite at the time to tell our friend what we really feel, so we give them a huge ovation at the end. Whether that is for the content or the relief it is all over is another question. However, the same batch of images edited down to 50 or 60 are far more watchable. I think one of the most important skills in AV is editing.

An opinion is just one persons view, who is to say that view is right? Well, surely that is you the author, you listen to what is said, but at the end of the day you can choose to ignore that contribution or not.

Here is a question for anyone to just consider. You have an unlimited number of suburb photographs to view, which are not your own and you have never seen before (choose any subject that interests you). How many of these photographs can you look at before you start to get bored. When you find a great website and gallery on line how many images do you look at in one sitting, I bet it isn't 60.

[fredor]

For what it is worth, I download a PTE show to be either entertained or educated, I have to say that this did neither for me so as is my right I hit the escape key half way which up untill now I have never done when watching a Barry Beckham show, neither have I ever downloaded a show simply because someone else did not like it

Regards

Fred W

[Bruss444]

Hello Sam, How can I thank you enough for also providing a Mac version of your fine presentation which ran perfectly on my Mac Pro and sounded beautifully through the stereo sound system! This massive structure is amazing accomplishment and is beautiful in form and design. Sam, I must mention the music. Many times for Christmas and Easter we sing in our church choir either all or parts of the Händels Messias. Particularly blessed was it to hear the part "..and the Glory of the LORD" . Sam, thank you so much and my wife and I send you and your family greetings from our little town of Quarryville here in southeastern Pennsylvania, USA. (It was interesting to see the animation at the escalator and the text in the sky at the end too!!)

[cici]

For what it is worth, I download a PTE show to be either entertained or educated, I have to say that this did neither for me so as is my right I hit the escape key half way which up untill now I have never done when watching a Barry Beckham show,

As you say, it’s your right.

“[size="2"]I had to present for days, a 1 hour show but people had to whatch at it standing!

About 200-300 people each day, and you could hear a fly flying. Never anybody went out before the end. And it was always a big ovation.(But never I could know if iit was an actual standing ovation or just an ovation, lol)”

I precise you that I was sponsored By the town of Miland (the scond town of Italy),

The italian WWF, The Regional Ministery Of Agricolture, and by National Park of Stelvio. The Show was in the most prestigious place of Miland,( just besides the “Duomo”) normally dedicated to exhibitions to be visited standing . For security reasons firemen , last day before show, did not give permission for chairs

What do you say about this?

And after reading this didn’t you have the doubt that maybe you missed something good?

neither have I ever downloaded a show simply because someone else did not like it

What do you mean? You are offensive against people who downloaded my show.

They did not download because somebody else did not like it, but as they explained, because of the enormous difference of view between who did not like and who did.

It’s quite different! Please, do not loose your mind; please. I begin to be tired of this!

Regards

[cici]

Cici

As I have already said, there is no emotion in the written word and had I made my original observations to you in person, there is no way you would not have been upset, I am not that type of person. I apologise for my phrasing, but I would like you to understand there was no intention to be less than diplomatic.

Bbdigital, it’s difficult to believe you and I’m sure that everyone who has any psychological hability, will agree with me. But I do not want to develop this argument I wrote about it on my first reply but I decided not to publish it. I can reed behind the words.. And I think you have a quite personal way of being “diplomatic”.

“Your avatar shows you as a man of senior years, so I guess you know that it requires almost no effort to say "That's nice", more nerve to give contructive feedback. (no criticism of the other four contributor”

Do you actually think is a diplomatic way this?

Having said that, if someone does say something which you or any other forum member feels is out of place, isn't it better to ask for clarification before assuming the worst and then reacting accordingly.

To public provocation , public reply! Always. (legal right)

Another point missed, especially by Eric is the fact that I don't actually dislike your sequence I think it is fine. Had I visited that place I would have done much the same as you. I like the building, the sweeping lines and the general photography, but my approach would have been different from there as I have already (not very well it seems) said.

This is evidence! Not only you but each member of this forum would have had a different approach! As you can see from my avatar I’m a man of senior years, enough to have learned this.

Anyway it's difficult to realize from your post that you think my sequence to be fine.

.

I still think that there needs to be clarification regarding shows posted here, but there seems to be a roaring silence on that matter.

It’s not the actual problem.

I know very well what's the general opinion about duration but as you I considere length of a show is determined by content.

I hope I don't upset you again, but I am not sure I could go along with what you say above. What makes a batch of images interesting is often determined by what the author decides not to show. In other words what they edit out.

Pffffffff! Please teach me how. So, next time I’ll just put the title and nothing else. And you’ll make me very happy: I am so lazy!

What I have in mind here is the family friend who visits you following their holiday and insists on showing you every image they shot on their holiday, all 500 of them. Some of us would rather slit our wrists than sit through torture like that. Of course we are far too polite at the time to tell our friend what we really feel, so we give them a huge ovation at the end. Whether that is for the content or the relief it is all over is another question. However, the same batch of images edited down to 50 or 60 are far more watchable. I think one of the most important skills in AV is editing.

What are you talking about! Here anybody is free wathing or not, it’s not a question to be polite!

“I had to present for days, a 1 hour show but people had to whatch at it standing!

About 200-300 people each day, and you could hear a fly flying. Never anybody went out before the end. And it was always a big ovation.(But never I could know if iit was an actual standing ovation or just an ovation, lol)”

Do you think they watched until the end because they were simply polite?

Was this a bad show because it was much more than 6 minutes long?

I precise you that I was sponsored By the town of Miland (the scond town of Italy),

The italian WWF, The Regional Ministery Of Agricolture, and by National Park of Stelvio. The Show was in the most prestigious place of Miland,( just besides the “Duomo”) normally dedicated to exhibitions to be visited standing . For security reasons firemen , last day befor show, did not give permission for chairs..

That has nothing to do with the 500 familiar holidays pictures!

It’s far away most important.

Reducing time for a show is just reducing creativity. Is a very wrong wqy of doing a show.

An opinion is just one persons view, who is to say that view is right? Well, surely that is you the author, you listen to what is said, but at the end of the day you can choose to ignore that contribution or not.

Here is a question for anyone to just consider. You have an unlimited number of suburb photographs to view, which are not your own and you have never seen before (choose any subject that interests you). How many of these photographs can you look at before you start to get bored. When you find a great website and gallery on line how many images do you look at in one sitting, I bet it isn't 60.

Bbdigital, one thing is watching 60 pictures in an album , a quite different thing is is watching them in a show!

We all know; PTE is a better way to look at pictures. What kind of argument are you telling about!

Your avatar shows that you are not a man of senior years like me, anyway it shows you are adult enough to do good reasoning. This one it is not.

Regards

“

[cici]

cici,

I would like to say that reading this thread gives rise to some doubts!

You seem to consider yourself as an AV artist of first degree. So, I wonder why you present your art in this rather technical forum. What about sending your work to Hayange, Epinal, Trophée de Paris, Villingen-Schwenningen (Medienfestival), ... ? This may give you a hint where your position is among the very best!

Regards,

Xaver

Hi Xaver,

I do not understant your doubt.

I'm not interested to any of these festivals.

[cici]

Hi,

Firstly I would like to say that I enjoyed this sequence immensely.

I wish I could take such wonderful pictures. I do like architectural images both ancient and modern and for me you appear to have portrayed a mood of grandeur that I find exciting. I don't know if I'll ever have the opportunity of visiting Liege but if I do you have given me a very good excuse for going by rail!

I'm truly sorry that personal differences have tainted this thread, particularly as I generally respect the opinions of all parties concerned. Perhaps language has played its part. Despite this and for what it's worth I will give below my opinion. I do this in part because I believe that as has been said above anybody posting a show generally does so in order to receive the views of others and also because it helps me to see how my views compare to those of others.

Normally I would not take the trouble to download a show of more that about six minutes, unless the title particularly interests me. In this instance it did and to be perfectly honest the comments above also encouraged me to do so. I DID NOT find it too long nor if there were any repeated images did I notice them.

It's difficult now to be certain that I have not been influenced by what has been said by others but I do wonder if the opening sequence of framed images was necessary. I liked it though for me, perhaps if it had been slowed down a little and if "smooth" had been applied to the motion, it would have worked even better.

Regarding the music, I thought it worked very well indeed and certainly augmented the cathedral impression of the images which I would have thought was the objective. If I have any criticism of the music it would be with the Handle piece, only because of the use of words which to my puritanical upbringing sounded just a little bit out of place in a railway station. I have no problem with the use of religious music. However, as a native English speaker who can understand the words they add a third dimension which on this occasion are just a little bit distracting.

I hope you do not mind but from time to time as part of my campaign to encourage members of my camera club to take up AV I show the occasional sequence. I will undoubtedly use your show at some stage as an excellent example of an architectural topic.

Thank you for making this sequence available to the forum.

Regards

John

Hi John

I thank you very much for your appreciation.

As far as framed images are concerned, in my opinion they are necessary because of “Drawing”. On My PC motion is quite smooth.

About Handle piece of music, myself had a doubt because of words, just for the same reason as you. But finally I decided for this music because it was not rail I was describing, but the particular structure. Another reason is that the French version of the show is on my site , visited almost by French speaking people; I’m not sure that they will pay attention to words.

For sure I do not mind having my sow as an example in your camera club, I’ll consider this as an honour.

I thank you again

Friendly

[cici]

Hello Sam, How can I thank you enough for also providing a Mac version of your fine presentation which ran perfectly on my Mac Pro and sounded beautifully through the stereo sound system! This massive structure is amazing accomplishment and is beautiful in form and design. Sam, I must mention the music. Many times for Christmas and Easter we sing in our church choir either all or parts of the Händels Messias. Particularly blessed was it to hear the part "..and the Glory of the LORD" . Sam, thank you so much and my wife and I send you and your family greetings from our little town of Quarryville here in southeastern Pennsylvania, USA. (It was interesting to see the animation at the escalator and the text in the sky at the end too!!)

Hi Bill,

Thank You very much for your enthousiastic appreciation and for your greetings.

Greetings from Charleroi, Belgium

[Barry Beckham]

OK Cici

Enough said, I didn't really understand your reply anyway, but this is only a debate, not an attack on you, relax a bit.

[xahu34]

Hi Xaver, I do not understant your doubt ...

... Enough said, I didn't really understand your reply anyway, but this is only a debate, not an attack on you, relax a bit ...

cici does not understand my doubts. Barry does not understand cici's reply. The confusion seems to be perfect.

Regards,

Xaver

[Barry Beckham]

Its the written word lost in translation

[dadou]

Juste a remark , Cici, Barry and Xaver .

Cici presents a slide show and ask for constructive comments .

He has replies from many persons , positive or negative .

First reflection : this slide show create reactions ; it not minor .

Second one : it is better to read somebody saying : I think that .... ; the doctoral speech are always irritating replies .

Third one : "This may give you a hint where your position is among the very best!" : one can prefer an advice from the public to the one of little chapels with their own rules ...

So I think important to keep a liberty space where any one has the posibility to see the personal reaction of known or unknown members . We learn very much with the reactions of others users ...

I am too a senior person and the slide show is only a hobby ; no matter to do great speeches ...

I hope that all is finish...

Sorry for my poor english ....and the sun for all !

[JPD]

cici,

I would like to say that reading this thread gives rise to some doubts!

You seem to consider yourself as an AV artist of first degree. So, I wonder why you present your art in this rather technical forum. What about sending your work to Hayange, Epinal, Trophée de Paris, Villingen-Schwenningen (Medienfestival), ... ? This may give you a hint where your position is among the very best!

Regards,

Xaver

Are you sure that the position in Hayange or others is a good information ? Look at the fourth position in Hayange this year and compare with the Cici's slideshow, you probably change your opinion, at least Cici's photographies are nice. It's the opinion of 3 persons which made the positions, not the opinion of people who see the slideshow.

There is always people who don't like a slideshow, that's quite normal, but here most of those who comment seems like it, like me, even if we never do something perfect (I would prefer a full sreen option, but Cici don't agree, and he is the author)

[cici]

Hi Daniel

Hi Jean-Pierre,

thanks for your advices.