DRAWING THE LIGHT

[cici]

OK Cici

Enough said, I didn't really understand your reply anyway, but this is only a debate, not an attack on you, relax a bit.

Ok Stop

I'm quite relaxed. But are you sure you are? Because of your "agony""...!

[JPD]

Xaver, just a sentence of Maurice Guidicelli on diaporamaforum (who is the webmaster of DCCN who often present slideshows in festivals or galas since many years) :

About one of his slideshow who was second in Epinal :

Ah! Une autre qualité dont SEUL peut s'énorgueillir mon montage "Je voudrais pas crever":

C'est le seul diaporama au monde à avoir été classé DERNIER dans une manifestation.

(La Coupe de France étant la seule manifestation où les montages sont classés du premier au dernier... sans mettre ex_aequo les derniers...)

To make short he was the last with a sliseshow (50ème/50 for Coupe de France) and second in Epinal, with the same slideshow one or two weeks later.

That mean clearely that position in festival is not the good tool and Cici is right when he is not interested by them

Note : Maurice is probably one of those who tried PTE in France before everybody and one of those who promotate PTE in France

[mhwarner]

This is getting ridiculous! Cici posted a show here and by doing so -- based on past practices and traditions in this particular forum -- he invited comments and/or criticism. Some people liked his show, some people did not. Cici was apparently offended by the comments of those who did not. (I was one of those who did not but refrained from posting my comments as they were pretty much in line with what others said and it became obvious quickly that the OP did not want to hear any criticism.)

As others here (and in many other forums I frequent) have pointed out, without facial expressions, tonal expressions and body language, it is often easy to take offense to the written word when the same words spoken in person might not raise emotions. In this particular situation, I suspect that native language differences may also be an issue. While it would be very nice for us all to take extensive time in crafting our postings so that they are totally unambiguous and completely polite and contain no possibility of offending somebody, that is not likely to happen. Most of us don't have that much time. We are all grownups here. My opinion is that if you post a show here in this forum, you are tacitly agreeing to accept comments -- good, bad or indifferent. Take those comments for what they are worth. Learn from them or ignore them. It's your choice. But don't try to change people's opinions. And don't get into pissing contests with those who may not share your feelings or attachments to a particular show. I don't believe any of the comments expressed here, regardless of anyone's interpretation, were petty, mean, small minded or derogatory. Nor were they politically incorrect. It did not appear that any of the comments were meant as personal attacks, either, until the OP turned them into such.

If you (anyone who frequents here) don't want comments, post your show with something like "Here's a show I have created. Please do not comment. I like it and I don't care whether you do or not." You are sure to win many friends here. NOT. Otherwise, post it on Beechbrook and let people find it. Or just send a link via email to your friends. I believe that most of us who do post slideshows (or frequent this forum on a regular basis) learn from the comments (positive or negative) -- those made on our own shows as well as the shows of others. I would hate to see that facility go away because people decide that it is not worth the effort of commenting for fear that they will be attacked for their opinions.

Could we just let this thing die and move on to posting slideshows and learning from each other? Thanks!

[morturn]

mhwarner

Thank you for that breath of fresh air

[Lin Evans]

Hi Folks,

I think that whatever our opinions might be, we should couch them "as opinions" rather than in some implied condescending tone regardless of our native language.

I believe it's inappropriate to imply that because only "X" number of people have responded that it means a particular show was not well received. It could be because of the size of the download, other interests by visitors at the time or myriad reasons having absolutely nothing to do with the "quality" of the presentation.

I believe it's inappropriate to first "apologize for" and then continue with negative criticism. If one has negative criticism, just say it without the obsequious preface. If it is intended to express a personal opinion, just be certain that this is made clear.

Also words such as:

The other animation while clever, doesn't add to the impact of the show and can easily be missed. It is also a little fast perhaps...

only serve to express a personal opinion, yet are couched as if they were somehow coming from one with an attitude of implied superiority.

The following is inappropriate:

The show appears to have been made at 1024*768 pixels, yet I can see quality issues in the even tones in some images. It suggests that a camera with a small chip has been used or you have cropped the images a little too small.

The insinuated "quality" of a photographer's equipment used to capture an image is an inappropriate comment, and even more so when the opinion, as expressed, is simply wrong. Cameras with "small chips" do not generally reveal "quality issues" in a 1024 pixel display. I would interpret it as a thinly veiled insult and I can certainly see why the OP responded as he did.

The station looks like the perfect place for a wide angle lens approach and I often put my camera on self timer and place it on the floor is such places to get a viewpoint that is a bit different. I think the sweeping shapes would be emphasised and more powerful with this approach.

The above is implicitly a condescending attitude as might be given by a "teacher" to a "student".... Not appropriate at all in my opinion. It's quite obvious that the images "were" made with a wide angle lens so why the unnecessary comments?":

My point is that we all need to be aware of how our message will be received. Not only the words we use, but also the "tone" we use is important.

The whole criticism could have been simply stated as:

"I didn't like the length of the show and I would have made a similar one no longer than "X".

" I don't care for animation in "my" shows and would prefer a show with less of it."

The problem with the response is "tone." Whether intentional or accidental by virtue of one's writing style it sends a message which is likely to elicit a "knee jerk" response. Another response by another poster implies that the OP might not be as skilled as he thinks and suggests that if the OP were to enter his slideshow in certain competitions he might find out where he ranks...... That too is inappropriate in my opinion.

Lin

[cici]

This is getting ridiculous! Cici posted a show here and by doing so -- based on past practices and traditions in this particular forum -- he invited comments and/or criticism. Some people liked his show, some people did not. Cici was apparently offended by the comments of those who did not. (I was one of those who did not but refrained from posting my comments as they were pretty much in line with what others said and it became obvious quickly that the OP did not want to hear any criticism.)

As others here (and in many other forums I frequent) have pointed out, without facial expressions, tonal expressions and body language, it is often easy to take offense to the written word when the same words spoken in person might not raise emotions. In this particular situation, I suspect that native language differences may also be an issue. While it would be very nice for us all to take extensive time in crafting our postings so that they are totally unambiguous and completely polite and contain no possibility of offending somebody, that is not likely to happen. Most of us don't have that much time. We are all grownups here. My opinion is that if you post a show here in this forum, you are tacitly agreeing to accept comments -- good, bad or indifferent. Take those comments for what they are worth. Learn from them or ignore them. It's your choice. But don't try to change people's opinions. And don't get into pissing contests with those who may not share your feelings or attachments to a particular show. I don't believe any of the comments expressed here, regardless of anyone's interpretation, were petty, mean, small minded or derogatory. Nor were they politically incorrect. It did not appear that any of the comments were meant as personal attacks, either, until the OP turned them into such.

If you (anyone who frequents here) don't want comments, post your show with something like "Here's a show I have created. Please do not comment. I like it and I don't care whether you do or not." You are sure to win many friends here. NOT. Otherwise, post it on Beechbrook and let people find it. Or just send a link via email to your friends. I believe that most of us who do post slideshows (or frequent this forum on a regular basis) learn from the comments (positive or negative) -- those made on our own shows as well as the shows of others. I would hate to see that facility go away because people decide that it is not worth the effort of commenting for fear that they will be attacked for their opinions.

Could we just let this thing die and move on to posting slideshows and learning from each other? Thanks!

I sincerely apologize for my profound ignorance:

I knew about dogma considering Pope speaking "ex Cathedra" to be infallible and that every believer must submit to.

but i did not know about dogma considering comment/criticism on Winsoft forum infallible too and that everybody must accpt without replying.

"But don't try to change people's opinions."

D makes a comment

I reply

D makes a new comment

Please , tell me, who is trying to change peoples mind?

Yes

"This is getting ridiculous! "

Anyway, I have no problem with negative comments, juste they have to respect me

In this case I was attacked to put me down.

When I do not agreee with smbd about smth I just say tha I do not agree ... I do not say you are old enough to ...(not th exact words , but this was the meaning)

[dadou]

"we should couch them "as opinions" rather than in some implied condescending tone "

"yet are couched as if they were somehow coming from one with an attitude of implied superiority"

"The above is implicitly a condescending attitude as might be given by a "teacher" to a "student".... "

etc ...

Lin, I think that you have understood all the problem with the attitude of two or three persons ; I thank you to have put clearly this attitude in the light of a correct english language .

Very good intervention, Lin !

[morturn]

"we should couch them "as opinions" rather than in some implied condescending tone "

"yet are couched as if they were somehow coming from one with an attitude of implied superiority"

"The above is implicitly a condescending attitude as might be given by a "teacher" to a "student".... "

etc ...

Lin, I think that you have understood all the problem with the attitude of two or three persons ; I thank you to have put clearly this attitude in the light of a correct english language .

Very good intervention, Lin !

So what we are saying is it is OK to call someone ‘thick’ or ‘grumpy old men’ as long as it is not interpreted as an attitude of implied superiority or condescending.

Is this guidance agreed with all moderators or arbitrary?

[Ken Cox]

Dave

why not just ignore them like you would an unruly child

ken

[morturn]

Ken, thank you for your kind and very wise advice, you are absolutly correct, will do.

[Ken Cox]

Dave

on a side note, your web page is not responding

some cross links are coming but not the main site

http://www.google.ca/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&q=www.morturn.com+&btnG=Google+Search&meta=lr%3D&aq=null&oq=

ken

[morturn]

Ken

Yes, you may recall I had a few problems with the service provider, easyspace, I have let that contract expire, but not yet set up a service with the new provider. On my list of things to do.

[dadou]

"So what we are saying is it is OK to call someone 'thick' or 'grumpy old men' as long as it is not interpreted as an attitude of implied superiority or condescending."

If you say me something as that , I shall go to my mirror and , honnestly , think "he is right , but he is a friend and he says that for my health "; and I shall do not answer , or say you that I do not like "your hair dresser !

An arrogant attitude in front of me takes me away 40 years and give me urticaria ....

As Ken suggest , I shall try to "just ignore them " ...if my latin temperament allows .

Thanks to Mortum , Ken and my particuliar translator , Patrick

[xahu34]

Hi Folks,

I think that whatever our opinions might be, we should ...

This post may not be considered as "condescending", but I would regard it as an attempt to show "superiority": Here comes the boss and shows us the ropes (should mean: Er zeigt uns wo es langgeht (sorry for writing German)).

.... Another response by another poster implies that the OP might not be as skilled as he thinks and suggests that if the OP were to enter his slideshow in certain competitions he might find out where he ranks...... That too is inappropriate in my opinion ...

This is a correct analysis. It is nice to read that the classification "inappropriate" is presented as an opinion. If I had considered my remark as inappropriate, I would not have posted it

This is getting ridiculous ...

The best contribution in this thread (in my opinion, of course)

Regards,

Xaver

[Guest Yachtsman1]

You missed off HUMBLE Xaver, IMHO.

Regards Eric

Yachtsman1

[dadou]

"If I had considered my remark as inappropriate, I would not have posted it "

I like your certainty , Xaver !

[Guest Yachtsman1]

I think it's time someone switched the light off

Yachtsman1

[jfa]

And put the cat out. Don"t forget to shoo the pigeons too.

[cici]

Hi Folks,

I think that whatever our opinions might be, we should couch them "as opinions" rather than in some implied condescending tone regardless of our native language.

I believe it's inappropriate to imply that because only "X" number of people have responded that it means a particular show was not well received. It could be because of the size of the download, other interests by visitors at the time or myriad reasons having absolutely nothing to do with the "quality" of the presentation.

I believe it's inappropriate to first "apologize for" and then continue with negative criticism. If one has negative criticism, just say it without the obsequious preface. If it is intended to express a personal opinion, just be certain that this is made clear.

Also words such as:

only serve to express a personal opinion, yet are couched as if they were somehow coming from one with an attitude of implied superiority.

The following is inappropriate:

The insinuated "quality" of a photographer's equipment used to capture an image is an inappropriate comment, and even more so when the opinion, as expressed, is simply wrong. Cameras with "small chips" do not generally reveal "quality issues" in a 1024 pixel display. I would interpret it as a thinly veiled insult and I can certainly see why the OP responded as he did.

The above is implicitly a condescending attitude as might be given by a "teacher" to a "student".... Not appropriate at all in my opinion. It's quite obvious that the images "were" made with a wide angle lens so why the unnecessary comments?":

My point is that we all need to be aware of how our message will be received. Not only the words we use, but also the "tone" we use is important.

The whole criticism could have been simply stated as:

"I didn't like the length of the show and I would have made a similar one no longer than "X".

" I don't care for animation in "my" shows and would prefer a show with less of it."

The problem with the response is "tone." Whether intentional or accidental by virtue of one's writing style it sends a message which is likely to elicit a "knee jerk" response. Another response by another poster implies that the OP might not be as skilled as he thinks and suggests that if the OP were to enter his slideshow in certain competitions he might find out where he ranks...... That too is inappropriate in my opinion.

Lin

Hi Lin

I was away. I come back just to thank You for putting in evidence the actual problems.

[bwat]

I am not going to comment on the experts 'infighting' but I thought the photography was first class and the AV presentation excellent. The images were so striking that I did not notice the length of the show but just ran it again to enjoy the sequence. With such a good selection of images 9 minutes just disappeared. I appreciate that the 'sterotype' show should be 4-6 minutes but as with all photography you can break the 'rules' and excell.

Thanks for sharing your show.

Barry

[Barry Beckham]

Though protest too much, give it a rest

[cici]

I am not going to comment on the experts 'infighting' but I thought the photography was first class and the AV presentation excellent. The images were so striking that I did not notice the length of the show but just ran it again to enjoy the sequence. With such a good selection of images 9 minutes just disappeared. I appreciate that the 'sterotype' show should be 4-6 minutes but as with all photography you can break the 'rules' and excell.

Thanks for sharing your show.

Barry

Hi Barry,

I thank You for your nice appreciation

Friendly