Keyhole Distortions

[allanw]

Hi

I have built several slideshows recently, which I prefer to output as an EXE file. Prior to assembling a show, I resize the images using Photofiltre, to a resolution of 1024 x 683, (this maintains the original aspect ratio of the shots). I often use picture in picture, (using a landscape shot as a background for a vertical shot), which I create in Photoshop. In an EXE show, I have no problem, I have black borders on my wide screen PC, but the show is fine.

When I create the same show in video builder for a 4 x 3 aspect ratio PAL TV there is very noticeable keyhole distortion in the upright edges of the picture in picture shots.

I realise this may be something to do with different aspect ratios, (5 x 4, 4 x 3), but is there a simple way to overcome this without having to rebuild the entire show from scratch using a different resolution.

Any help appreciated

Allan

[Conflow]

Allan,

I don't know what Camera you have but most Camera's have Size-Format choices,viz:-

3:2 = Original 35mm.Camera Format ~ which you are using.

4:3 = Postcard Format which is also 4:3 Video Format = 1024x768 or 1200x900 etc,etc.

And there are others depending on Camera make...

You are re-sizing the original 3:2 Photos down to 1024x683 = which again is 3:2 Format.

To get those 3:2 Photos into 4:3 Video-Format you will have have to 'crop-them' down to

1024x768 = 4:3 Format. Resizing won't work as it distorts the originals.

Alternatively set your Camera to (any-size) once its 4:3 Format

Brian (Conflow)

[allanw]

Allan,

I don't know what Camera you have but most Camera's have Size-Format choices,viz:-

3:2 = Original 35mm.Camera Format ~ which you are using.

4:3 = Postcard Format which is also 4:3 Video Format = 1024x768 or 1200x900 etc,etc.

And there are others depending on Camera make...

You are re-sizing the original 3:2 Photos down to 1024x683 = which again is 3:2 Format.

To get those 3:2 Photos into 4:3 Video-Format you will have have to 'crop-them' down to

1024x768 = 4:3 Format. Resizing won't work as it distorts the originals.

Alternatively set your Camera to (any-size) once its 4:3 Format

Brian (Conflow)

Hi

Thanks for the response.

I am using a Canon EOS 450, I had a look at the other image sizes, while I have not done the maths, they all seem to equate to the 3 x 2 format.

The only work around I can think of is to re-size the canvas to 1024 x 768 and have a black border top and bottom.

I was hoping that there was a setting in P2E which did something similar, but a darn sight quicker than resizing hundreds of pictures.

All help appreciated

Allan

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Allan

You can batch re-size in various editing programmes, some only allow one format at a time, either all landscape, or all portrait, some are selective. I went through the same problem as yourself a couple of years ago. Eventually you will learn to take your pictures for PTE to allow a crop & re-size.

Regards Eric

Yachtsman1

[fh1805]

...When I create the same show in video builder for a 4 x 3 aspect ratio PAL TV there is very noticeable keyhole distortion in the upright edges of the picture in picture shots.

Allan,

Is your TV an old CRT model by any chance? On the few occasions when I have dabbled with creation of a DVD-Video from a PTE sequence, I have noticed that the vertical sides are not always straight. I've come to the conclusion that, in my case, it is an artefact of the CRT technology.

regards,

Peter

[Conflow]

Allan,

As 'Yachtsman' was replying to you I was looking up my Archives about your Canon EOS

and yes your Camera only 'shoots' 3:2 Format....it is a big problem trying to convert

3:2 to 4:3 Format as a 1024x768 size choice.

The 4:3 format is the 'old' Analog-TV Standard which will be obselete by 2012 because

those Transmitters are scheduled for "turn-off" by 2013. This is already happening in

Europe and your NTSC-Authority have similar plans, consequently it would seem to be a

waste of time going down the 1024x768 route as PTE is already offering the 16:9 format.

Would you not consider using the new 16:9 Format which is already in use in the USA and

Europe and used in all (normal) Wide-Screen TV's as well as the new HDTV-Systems ?

If you consider 'shooting' in RAW Format there are some new Programs out there capable

of converting your RAW 3:2 into 16:9 format. These are called 'Transcoder-Programs' and

in your case they may be worth considering as most people on both sides of the "Pond" are

now obliged to change over to 16:9 format as a consequence of International Telecoms Law

and most (new) Projector-Systems are now in 16:9 format.

May I also add that most 'Media-Players' will convert directly from your PC to TV in the

16:9 Format both to normal and HD-TV. Example is the Western-Digital Media Player.

I hope this gives you some further help and things to consider.

Brian (Conflow)

Here is an example of (one) Bulk-Batch Converter.

Link:- http://mac.softpedia.com/get/Graphics/HDTV-Converter.shtml

[allanw]

Allan,

Is your TV an old CRT model by any chance? On the few occasions when I have dabbled with creation of a DVD-Video from a PTE sequence, I have noticed that the vertical sides are not always straight. I've come to the conclusion that, in my case, it is an artefact of the CRT technology.

regards,

Peter

Yep, its an old steam model, regular, old fashioned PAL. It would be relatively easy to resize the images to 1024 x 768, I wondered if this would cure the distortion? Once I have finished the EXE show I will give it a try, (could be a while, I have 2,500 slides to go through.

Any further help appreciated,

Allan

[allanw]

Allan,

As 'Yachtsman' was replying to you I was looking up my Archives about your Canon EOS

and yes your Camera only 'shoots' 3:2 Format....it is a big problem trying to convert

3:2 to 4:3 Format as a 1024x768 size choice.

The 4:3 format is the 'old' Analog-TV Standard which will be obselete by 2012 because

those Transmitters are scheduled for "turn-off" by 2013. This is already happening in

Europe and your NTSC-Authority have similar plans, consequently it would seem to be a

waste of time going down the 1024x768 route as PTE is already offering the 16:9 format.

Would you not consider using the new 16:9 Format which is already in use in the USA and

Europe and used in all (normal) Wide-Screen TV's as well as the new HDTV-Systems ?

If you consider 'shooting' in RAW Format there are some new Programs out there capable

of converting your RAW 3:2 into 16:9 format. These are called 'Transcoder-Programs' and

in your case they may be worth considering as most people on both sides of the "Pond" are

now obliged to change over to 16:9 format as a consequence of International Telecoms Law

and most (new) Projector-Systems are now in 16:9 format.

May I also add that most 'Media-Players' will convert directly from your PC to TV in the

16:9 Format both to normal and HD-TV. Example is the Western-Digital Media Player.

I hope this gives you some further help and things to consider.

Brian (Conflow)

Here is an example of (one) Bulk-Batch Converter.

Link:- http://mac.softpedia.com/get/Graphics/HDTV-Converter.shtml

Wow! You brought up many issues I had not considered. We are in the dark ages here, I am still in a terrestrial TV area, due to update to digital this year.

I would not go down the Sky TV route as we do not watch enough TV to warrant the subscription.

What I had not realised was that my 4 x 3 TVs are nearing obsolescence, so it looks as though I may need to get my head around this sooner rather than later. Because my TVs are 4 x 3, I tend to stick to shows in that format. Surely there is a way to lock the image size in p2e so a 3 x 2 image is shown correctly, in 5 x 4, (and preferably in 16 x 9)?

Any further comments appreciated.

Allan

[Conflow]

Allan,

I thought you were on the USA side of the Pond as you had mentioned the 'NTSC Standard' now I see that you

are somewhere in Europe, ie:-PAL Standard. So you are going to go Digital soon, well as you are in a Terrestial

TV district why not go for a Satellite-Disc ~ no fees just your TV Licence. Many people have 'twigged' that is the

best way to go...now back to your problem.

Normal methods

No matter what 'Batch-Size Converter' you use, you will get Image-distortion when converting 3:2 to any other

size Format. The only way you could achieve any 'passable' compromise to to convert to the 16:10 HD-You Tube

Standard which is (approx) 5x your 3:2 sizes and it will play in Full-Screen on Laptops configured to 1280x800 and

will also play on 16:9 TVs as Full-Screen as will the BBC HD-Standards ~but with a small Black-Guardband on the

top and bottom of the Screen~ with very slight vertical elongation not noticable to strangers viewing a Wide-Screen.

As far as JPegs go, the only other method is 'Chop & Crop' with a 'Batch-Cropper' and you can see this every day on

every TV-Station when they 'Chop & Crop' a 4:3 Show into 16:9 format.

Advanced method

Is to convert (original) JPegs back into RAW format (stripping) provided the originals have not been Edited in any way.

I think there is a utility on your Canon-450 CD-Disc to do that. Alternatively 'shoot' in Raw for any future work.

Back-conversion to RAW will loose a minuscule amount of data but at least you can use a 'Transcoder-Program' to

get those 2500 photos back into a workable format. As RAW Images loose their DCF-Data in Photo-Editors you will

need Photoshop-CS (complete) with the 'RAW-DCF Batch Re-generator' (which can be downloaded) or the program

which I sent you, ie:-'Softpedia-Converter' for Windows/Mac.

Professional-Programs are available such as "Capture-One DSLR" from Phase.Com ($500)~ but who's going to pay that ?.

Personally I think the majority of Forum-Members are inevitably going to experience this problem when converting from

4:3 format into 16:9 because 4:3 looks terrible on a on a 16:9 Screen....Now there's a Project ??

Hope this has been of some help to you.

Brian (Conflow)

[allanw]

Allan,

I thought you were on the USA side of the Pond as you had mentioned the 'NTSC Standard' now I see that you

are somewhere in Europe, ie:-PAL Standard. So you are going to go Digital soon, well as you are in a Terrestial

TV district why not go for a Satellite-Disc ~ no fees just your TV Licence. Many people have 'twigged' that is the

best way to go...now back to your problem.

Normal methods

No matter what 'Batch-Size Converter' you use, you will get Image-distortion when converting 3:2 to any other

size Format. The only way you could achieve any 'passable' compromise to to convert to the 16:10 HD-You Tube

Standard which is (approx) 5x your 3:2 sizes and it will play in Full-Screen on Laptops configured to 1280x800 and

will also play on 16:9 TVs as Full-Screen as will the BBC HD-Standards ~but with a small Black-Guardband on the

top and bottom of the Screen~ with very slight vertical elongation not noticable to strangers viewing a Wide-Screen.

As far as JPegs go, the only other method is 'Chop & Crop' with a 'Batch-Cropper' and you can see this every day on

every TV-Station when they 'Chop & Crop' a 4:3 Show into 16:9 format.

Advanced method

Is to convert (original) JPegs back into RAW format (stripping) provided the originals have not been Edited in any way.

I think there is a utility on your Canon-450 CD-Disc to do that. Alternatively 'shoot' in Raw for any future work.

Back-conversion to RAW will loose a minuscule amount of data but at least you can use a 'Transcoder-Program' to

get those 2500 photos back into a workable format. As RAW Images loose their DCF-Data in Photo-Editors you will

need Photoshop-CS (complete) with the 'RAW-DCF Batch Re-generator' (which can be downloaded) or the program

which I sent you, ie:-'Softpedia-Converter' for Windows/Mac.

Professional-Programs are available such as "Capture-One DSLR" from Phase.Com ($500)~ but who's going to pay that ?.

Personally I think the majority of Forum-Members are inevitably going to experience this problem when converting from

4:3 format into 16:9 because 4:3 looks terrible on a on a 16:9 Screen....Now there's a Project ??

Hope this has been of some help to you.

Brian (Conflow)

Hmm! Seems a little of a dilemma. Of the two suggested methods, I prefer the Normal method. I was hoping to simply expand the canvas size to the new size, leaving the new, extra background either clear, or in black. This I hoped, would stop the image being expanded, (and therefore distorted) during playback.

With my limited knowledge of RAW, I have stayed clear of trying it to any great extent. I am using Photoshop 7, and do not do enough to justify an expensive upgrade to a version that handles RAW. As for Canons DPP program, I have not been able to get to grips with it yet. I can see the advantages of RAW, and there are quite a few shots I took in Madeira that could have benefited from this further processing to reduce contrast.

Incidentally, I did try Phase One's Demo software, the version I tried must have been a cut down version because it was 60 quid or so.

At the time I did not have a DSLR, (just the loan of one), so could not justify the cost, but I am considering it now.

Ultimately, it looks as though I will have to start thinking wide-screen, when shooting to allow for cropping.

Any further comments appreciated

Allan

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Elements 8 will open Raw files, I use 6 and luckily was able to download the patch for Nikon raw before Adobe withddrew it.

Yachtsman1

[Ed Overstreet]

I agree with Conflow's observation that a 4:3 show will look terrible when displayed at a full 16:9 HDTV screen. However many of the new widescreen TVs (at least my 42" plasma Panasonic) has a menu option that lets me display 4:3 materials in that format. Yes this results in black bars on the sides, but the images look great and I don't mind the black bars, having lived with them for years (at the top and bottom of the screen) when viewing widescreen DVD movies on our old 4:3 CRT TV.

I'd rather live with the black bars than have to re-create all my shows or convert all my slides for them. When you get a widescreen TV, get one that has a 4:3 display option on it. (My LG 23" widescreen monitor on which I'm typing this, in 16:9, also has a 4:3 display option on it if I want to use it. I think this is pretty common.)

As someone mentioned earlier, we as well are not getting the new digital cable or satellite subscription. There is so little on TV worth watching any more (at least here in Canada), we use our TVs mainly to watch DVD movies (almost all releases we can get free from our public library, for a week at a time, if we're flexible on when our "number" comes up on the wait list). I used to watch the CBC National News but it's just as easy and more convenient just to visit their news website, which I've set as my home page anyway. And I don't watch sporting events, which is the only other reason I can think of for watching TV (the "reality shows" and other related drek are too tedious for words). And the annoying commercials that are now fairly common on some DVD movie releases are easier to get out of than the bloody commericals on most television broadcasts, when you're watching live. For me, television broadcasts are a thing of the past, I almost never bother and don't miss it... So for me, the way the TV industry is going re: aspect ratios is utterly irrelevant for my photography and AV work.

BTW one of the things I love about my Lumix LX3 and GF1 cameras is not only do they have a 16:9 aspect-ratio option, but you can set "rule of thirds" guidelines to appear on the screen, and those automatically adjust to the new aspect ratio (preserved the one-thirds division points but in that new format) which really helps in composing images in the new format. However I only project my shows at our club, which has a projector that only "does" 4:3 (as far as I've noticed) so until that changes, there is little incentive for me to switch to 16:9 ... but that's a bit of a digression from the thread, sorry.

The main point for this thread, in my opinion, is there is no reason why what the TV industry is doing should make any difference to your photography and AV work, if you're doing it for recreation and not commercially.

[Barry Beckham]

Allan

You have had a lot of advice here and I am not sure more will help or hinder.

I don't see the resizing of 3:2 images to what you suggested in your first post as a problem at all. You have clearly recognised that to retain the format from your camera you are changing the width size to 1024 pixels and allowing the height to take care of itself. I do that myself quite a bit and you usually end up with something around 680 pixels in height.

I don't have a great experience of making DVD's, but I think Peter may be right and it is just the TV you are playing it back on. Before you do anything, can you try your DVD on another TV, maybe friends or family? If it plays OK on another TV, you know where the issue lies.

In the project options you could try ticking the Fixed size of slide in pixels option. That will stop the slide show being expanded on the DVD and while you may see a smaller image on your TV, the cushion effect may be gone. Worth a try maybe.