Request for color help

[Don]

I’m having some difficulty with color and would appreciate some help. I’m using PTE 6.0.3 and Windows 64-bit Vista Home Premium. I have an ATI Radeon HD4670 graphics card. I’m doing my image editing with Photoshop CS4. My color profile is sRGB and the bit depth is 8. I am saving my images as JPEGs, generally using a quality level of 6, with the Format Option set to Baseline. I am resizing my images to 1920 x 1080 px.

The color of my images in Photoshop look fine (after I applied color corrections.) Once imported into PTE, however, the images have a noticeable red tint. This occurs both in the Preview mode, as well as after creating an executable file for PC.

I checked the images again in Photoshop and Bridge, only to find that they look correct there. While I rarely use any other programs to view images, I checked with some others that were on my PC. I got a mixed bag of results. Windows Photo Gallery delivered the same color as Photoshop. Microsoft Office Picture Manager, however, yielded the same result as PTE, as did QuickTime PictureViewer. These are not minor differences. One is acceptable and the other is not.

I would appreciate any thoughts on this.

Don

[8321]

Hello Don,

That is strange and not something that I have noticed - vanilla PTE v6, Windows XP 1024x768.

Can you try BreezeBrowser, which I use?

Let us know the outcome,

Regards,

Jeff

[fh1805]

There was a long and detailed discussion two or three years ago on this forum about colour and colour profiles. A similar problem to this one was most reported as occuring, but only on ATi graphic cards (nVidia cards didn't suffer this problem). I seem to recall that the problem was identified by WnSoft as a bug in the ATi drivers and was duly reported to ATi.

regards,

Peter

P.S. Here are links to three old topics on this subject

http://www.picturestoexe.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8224&view=findpost&p=52229

http://www.picturestoexe.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7674&view=findpost&p=51312

http://www.picturestoexe.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7820&view=findpost&p=50086

[8321]

Luckily I use NVIDIA.

Thanks for your encyclopedic knowledge, Peter.

Jeff

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Can you post a short show on mediafire so we can check results?

Yachtsman1

[Ken Cox]

Jim has added a test to a large thread he uses

you might have a look at

see

http://www.picturest...113entry72113

also many years ago my isp directed me to this site for testing things -- monitor setup etc

see

http://www.eye4u.com/home/

there is a greyscale

very intense colours - sound also on site etc

ken

[xahu34]

Hi,

If I remember it correctly, the ATI Gamma Problem has occurred under Windows XP only, not under Vista.

Regards,

Xaver

[Guest Yachtsman1]

That is correct. The person in charge of my ex club's laptop accepted an automatic vista download which goosed the colour profile completely.

Yachtsman1.

[Don]

Thanks all for your responses. I’m still struggling with this problem but am optimistic that an answer will be found.

I have followed up all of the leads provided and also have re-read the “Color Management” section of Photoshop help. I’ve found some additional resources via Google and will be addressing them next. It appears that the solution to this situation is not simple.

Now for a confession: I have not calibrated my monitor with any devices such as Spyder3, etc. I got a bit lazy regarding this after experiencing good print results with my Canon printer. I knew that this was something that I had to deal with eventually, but put it off. It seems to me that this is not likely to be the source of the problem I’m experiencing now, given that I’m viewing the images from Photoshop and PTE on the same monitor.

As suggested by yachtsman1, I have put together a short show and posted it to mediafire (10 images, 40 seconds, 23 MB.) I enabled keyboard navigation. As PTE does not accept Photoshop (PSD) files directly, I used Microsoft’s Snipping Tool to capture the images as displayed in the Photoshop program and then saved them in JPEG format. While I realize that this introduces one more variable into the analysis, I couldn’t think of a better method for demonstrating the differences between the various images. To my eye, the Snipping Tool versions of the images as they appeared in Photoshop accurately portray the way the images appear within Photoshop. To be clear, when I’m looking at the images in Photoshop, the color appears correct, whether I’ve saved the images as PSDs or JPEGs. The problem is evident when I import the images into PTE. I also tried saving as PNG and BMP on a few images to see if this helped. It didn’t. Near the top of each image I have labeled the saving method.

Here are the links to this test:

For PC: http://www.mediafire.com/?ogtzyzxnzkw

For Mac: http://www.mediafire.com/?ewddkk4hz2y

Here is a little more info about my system. My monitor is a Dell 2408WFP (LCD). My system is a Dell Studio XPS 435MT. The Processor is an Intel Core i7 920 @2.67GHz. Checks with Microsoft’s Device Manager indicate that I have the latest drivers.

8321,

I’m not familiar with BreezeBrowser. I Googled it and it appears that it is another image management/editing software package. My preference is to stay with Photoshop. I’ll let you know how things turn out.

Peter,

I searched the Forum and, indeed, there was considerable discussion of color problems, focusing on gamma. I have learned that earlier versions of Photoshop had something called Adobe Gamma, which would enable one to make adjustments to eliminate unwanted color casts. PS CS4 does not have this. I’m thinking that this is not my problem, as I’m using the same monitor to view the PS and PTE images. I would think that the calibration of the monitor would not be a variable. I have found a web article by Ian Lyons that deals in detail with PS CS4 color management. That’s next on my list to explore. There are also a couple of suggestions from the links that you provided that I’m exploring, but none seemed to be the solution, at least to me.

Yachtsman1,

Thanks for the suggestion about posting a short show. I hope this helps.

Ken,

I’ve completed a “first pass” read of the resources you suggest. I may not be technically savvy enough to make the best of them, but I’m trying.

Thanks all for your responses.

Don

[Ken Cox]

Don

my Samsung ws monitor is set using the greyscale on the eye4u site - but how does the white of the site view on your monitor -- the white is white on mine with no tint

http://www.eye4u.com/home/

the first photshop family is a bit flat , the jpeg is more colourful

the photo shop girl is flat but the jpeg and png colourful

same results with the lady

the church shots show very little difference between the photoshop,jpeg and the bmp -- all 3 acceptable to my eyes -- in fact i missed the 3rd shot the difference is so small

i have used a Macdeth colour rendition chart for years to check my colours

also

see Gerard's sites

http://gdesroches.free.fr/formation/ftestsdpi_jpg_en.htm

the bottom left corner of the colour chart should be white

http://www.gdesroches.com/gerard.htm

http://www.gdesroches.com/panoramik.htm

http://gdesroches.free.fr/formation/liste.htm

I use irfanview as my graphics program and an old oem of Adobe 6 to compare things when needed

ken

http://www.xrite.com/home.aspx

http://www.rags-int-inc.com/PhotoTechStuff/ColorCalibration/

http://www.normankoren.com/makingfineprints1A.html

http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&source=hp&q=macbeth+color+calibration&aq=6&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=macbeth+col&gs_rfai=&fp=8afca31ae74915a9

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Hi Don

I'm afraid 22mb is not a short show, at my current download speed it would take an hour. I will have to pass.

Yachtsman1.

[Ken Cox]

ERIC

I have done screen shots of the picts and can email if you wish -- 5.5 mb 13 shots

ken

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Hi Ken

Send them, I'll have a look in the morning.

Regards Eric

Yachtsman1.

[Ken Cox]

ERIC

on their way 2 18:30 edst

ken

[Don]

Don

my Samsung ws monitor is set using the greyscale on the eye4u site - but how does the white of the site view on your monitor -- the white is white on mine with no tint

http://www.eye4u.com/home/

the first photshop family is a bit flat , the jpeg is more colourful

the photo shop girl is flat but the jpeg and png colourful

same results with the lady

the church shots show very little difference between the photoshop,jpeg and the bmp -- all 3 acceptable to my eyes -- in fact i missed the 3rd shot the difference is so small

i have used a Macdeth colour rendition chart for years to check my colours

also

see Gerard's sites

http://gdesroches.free.fr/formation/ftestsdpi_jpg_en.htm

the bottom left corner of the colour chart should be white

http://www.gdesroches.com/gerard.htm

http://www.gdesroches.com/panoramik.htm

http://gdesroches.free.fr/formation/liste.htm

I use irfanview as my graphics program and an old oem of Adobe 6 to compare things when needed

ken

http://www.xrite.com/home.aspx

http://www.rags-int-inc.com/PhotoTechStuff/ColorCalibration/

http://www.normankoren.com/makingfineprints1A.html

http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&source=hp&q=macbeth+color+calibration&aq=6&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=macbeth+col&gs_rfai=&fp=8afca31ae74915a9

Ken,

Thanks for your help on this one.

Like your Samsung, my monitor correctly displayed the white on the eye4u website.

Regarding some of my Photoshop images being a bit flat, I noticed that too. I should have boosted the color somewhat before posting them. My concern, however, is not over the flatness of some of those images, but about the difference between the way they appear in Photoshop versus PTE.

My normal process when creating a slideshow is as follows:

1. Shoot the image in RAW format

2. Convert from RAW with Adobe Camera RAW

3. Edit in Photoshop

4. Crop and size the image for PTE (1920 x 1200 or 1920 x 1080)

5. Save as a JPEG, typically with a compression quality of 6, but higher for a deep zoom

6. Import into PTE

My problem is that the color of the images change between step #5 and #6 above. So, the JPEG that I see in Photoshop does not match that JPEG after it has been imported into PTE. The PTE version is more red. This is what I’m trying to solve.

I’m reading through the other links you provided in your last response. They are helpful, both relative to this challenge, as well as in improving my overall understanding of digital color.

Thanks again for your help.

Don

[Don]

Hi Don

I'm afraid 22mb is not a short show, at my current download speed it would take an hour. I will have to pass.

Yachtsman1.

Eric,

Sorry about the size of the file. It must have been the BMP image that created the problem. I added that to see if file format was affecting the color changes. Fortunately, we have Ken to quickly back up the situation. Thanks, Ken.

Don

[fh1805]

Don,

I've sent you a PM (Personal Message) via the forum. Click on your userid at top right of the main forum page to be directed to it.

regards,

Peter

[photosalmon]

Ken,

My normal process when creating a slideshow is as follows:

1. Shoot the image in RAW format

2. Convert from RAW with Adobe Camera RAW

3. Edit in Photoshop

4. Crop and size the image for PTE (1920 x 1200 or 1920 x 1080)

5. Save as a JPEG, typically with a compression quality of 6, but higher for a deep zoom

6. Import into PTE

Don

I think you have to convert in SRGB profile before saving in Jpeg...

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Hi Don & Ken

Downloaded the pics, only colour cast I could see was the ladies auburnish hair?

Regards Eric

Yachtsman1

[Don]

I think you have to convert in SRGB profile before saving in Jpeg...

Maurice,

You are correct. I left that out. That happens in step #2, when I exit Adobe Camera RAW. It is one of the options available. As I have the program set to do that automatically, I don't even think of it. Good catch!

Don

[Conflow]

Don,

Firstly my apology ~ I had to disassemble your PP-Slideshow so to get at some of your Photos.

I put these through various Analyser's to see what was going wrong and I was quite surprised

by the results.

1)

All photographs have a 'White-Balance' problem which indicate's that something else was wrong.

2)

After various tests I found that that your PTE-JPegs had serious Colour-saturation problems.

3)

This has nothing to do with PTE excepting that PTE can not handle the embedded Adobe

scripts placed within the Photos by the Adobe RAW-Converter further enhanced by sRGB selection.

4)

On further investigation I found that there was a consistent +25% Colour-saturation in all JPegs.

5)

I corrected these and the Photos were put back to normal as shown in the 'Attachments'

The reason:-

The Adobe RAW-Converter is not the proper choice of Converter ~ it should be the Cameras-Converter.

Furthermore I dont know why everyone uses sRGB as its an 'old' Printer oriented system from the '90.

Better to use modern (Apple) RGB as its more in tune with modern LCD & Plasma Displays !!

Others say its your Graphic-Card Drivers ~ I dispute that as I was able to reproduce your Images as

you saw them on your PC ~ then I was able to correct them as shown below. I could be another

problem most likely the routines you are using or System set-up, but it is correctable.

I hope the contents of this Post and Attachments will help you overcome your problems.

Brian (Conflow)

[Don]

Don,

Firstly my apology ~ I had to disassemble your PP-Slideshow so to get at some of your Photos.

I put these through various Analyser's to see what was going wrong and I was quite surprised

by the results.

1)

All photographs have a 'White-Balance' problem which indicate's that something else was wrong.

2)

After various tests I found that that your PTE-JPegs had serious Colour-saturation problems.

3)

This has nothing to do with PTE excepting that PTE can not handle the embedded Adobe

scripts placed within the Photos by the Adobe RAW-Converter further enhanced by sRGB selection.

4)

On further investigation I found that there was a consistent +25% Colour-saturation in all JPegs.

5)

I corrected these and the Photos were put back to normal as shown in the 'Attachments'

The reason:-

The Adobe RAW-Converter is not the proper choice of Converter ~ it should be the Cameras-Converter.

Furthermore I dont know why everyone uses sRGB as its an 'old' Printer oriented system from the '90.

Better to use modern (Apple) RGB as its more in tune with modern LCD & Plasma Displays !!

Others say its your Graphic-Card Drivers ~ I dispute that as I was able to reproduce your Images as

you saw them on your PC ~ then I was able to correct them as shown below. I could be another

problem most likely the routines you are using or System set-up, but it is correctable.

I hope the contents of this Post and Attachments will help you overcome your problems.

Brian (Conflow)

Brian,

Thanks for your help and effort. It looks like I should be doing some more experimentation. Your work has given me reason to reconsider my current workflow.

I chose to use the Adobe Camera RAW converter rather than the Canon converter for two reasons: (1) Canon informed me that their converter would not work with my 64-bit Vista operating system, which may no longer be true and (2) consistency within the Adobe software. Images converted with Adobe Camera RAW can be imported into Photoshop as Smart Objects, thus offering a greater degree of non-destructive editing. As you point out, however, this may be introducing color conversion problems. My print colors have been true to what I see on my monitor, but PTE is clearly another story.

I’ve read many varying perspectives on the benefits of sRGB, Adobe RGB 1998, Apple RGB, etc. I chose sRGB thinking that it was more compatible for web viewing. I’ll experiment with Adobe RGB 1998 and Apple RGB. You mentioned that it would be better to use Apple RGB. Would that be more appropriate than Adobe RGB 1998?

I’ve been shooting RAW for a little over a year now and was previously shooting sRGB. As a quick test to see what would happen if I avoided the RAW conversion issue, I took an image that was originally shot as sRGB and imported it directly from my PC into PTE, without it ever having gone into Photoshop. I then opened the same image in Windows Photo Gallery, and then Photoshop. The PTE display of this image was clearly more saturated than the Windows Photo Gallery and Photoshop versions, which were about equally saturated. I should add that I had downloaded this test image from my camera into my PC using Adobe Bridge. Do you think that this could be introducing some of the difficulty?

I’m going to contact Canon to see if they’ve made their software compatible with 64-bit systems now. I’ll also do some experiments with Apple RGB and Adobe RGB 1998.

Thanks again for all of your effort.

Don

[Conflow]

Don,

Just got your Post and i would like to say as follows:-

1)

I lost confidence in these 'PixBridge Photo Downloaders' many years ago ~ its a long story which I won't go into here.

2)

I developed my own simple 'direct-downloader system' some time ago and its never let me down ~ so to try and resolve

your 'color saturation' issues I would like you to try out this method (See "Attachment" below).

3)

Dont shoot RAW just use the Cameras 'JPeg-Profile' but firstly make sure you have its 'White-Balance' set correctly.

You might have to go through its Menu to find the correct settings.

Anyway give the above method a try and let me know the results and we can take it from there.

Brian (Conflow)

[Ronniebootwest]

I think you have to convert in SRGB profile before saving in Jpeg...

Why do you think that this conversion is necessary please?

Ron

[photosalmon]

Why do you think that this conversion is necessary please?

Ron

PTE does not use profil color and by default it is SRGB

so you have to convert your pictures to this profile for the best result...