Image Processing Workflow

[fh1805]

I apologise for the length of this post; but in order for any of you to offer useful advice, you need to have all the details.

I am in need of some advice. I recently made some significant changes to my image workflow and am now experiencing some problems.

The changes that I made were:

• switched to using RAW files out of my Nikon D70 (instead of large JPEGs)
  
• introduced Lightroom v2.6 to process the RAW files
  
• switched to 1920x1080 as my AV image size (from 1024x768)
  

The problems that I am experiencing are usually seen in clear blue skies. They take the form of very obvious and unsightly banding of colour and/or areas of sudden changes of pixel colour.

My investigation into these problems is, perhaps, hampered by the fact that my PC monitor is only 1280x1024 and so I never see the images at their native 1920x1080 resolution.

My workflow currently is:

• import the RAW files from the camera’s storage card into Lightroom (the images are stored on an external hard drive – J: and automatically backed up during import onto another external drive – K:)
  
• adjust white balance in Lightroom (if desired)
  
• apply Auto Tone (if desired)
  
• export the images that I want to use as 100% JPEGs
  
• open these images in Photoshop Elements v7
  
• crop to 1920x1080 as follows:
  
• create a new image with just a transparent base layer of 1920x1080
  
• use the Move tool to drag the image onto this base layer
  
• adjust the crop using the Move tool handles
  
• add a Levels adjustment layer and set the black and white points where I’d like them
  
• use Enhance…Adjust Lighting…Shadows/Highlights to lighten the shadows if desired
  
• use Enhance…Unsharp Mask to apply a little sharpening
  
• File…Save As… JPEG quality 6
  

Please note the following:

• I chose Lightroom rather than Capture NX because I was able to take an unwanted copy from a friend, thus saving a significant amount of money
  
• I chose Lightroom rather than Adobe Camera Raw because Lightroom offers more capability for image manipulation. (Adobe Camera Raw for Photoshop Elements doesn’t seem to be particularly “feature rich” – but perhaps I am wrong there and someone can enlighten me)
  
• Once the images are opened in Photoshop the workflow is as it used to be for the JPEGs coming out of the D70 (except that the crop size is now 1920x1080 instead of 1024x768)
  

I feel certain in my own mind that any weakness in this workflow is going to be either in the way I am using Lightroom or as a consequence of the 1920x1080 images being “downsized” by my system in order to show them on my 1280x1024 monitor.

I’d welcome the thoughts of those who may have been through this learning curve in the past.

regards,

Peter

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Hi Peter

I have seen the sky effect on my pictures in the past, particularly in my Canon phase. As you know I use a combination of Elements 6 & NX2 depending on what I want to do. I find my Nef (nikon raw pictures) look better in NX2. If you email me the two pictures in question as they came out of the camera, I will see how they look on my set up. Might be as well to zip them as my email system baulks at raw files.

Alternatively you can download a trial of NX2 from Nikon UK & check yourself. Just one thought, how much did to expand the pictures before cropping, mine usually start a 16%. Incidentally if you decide to go NX2? there are rumours NX3 is on its way.

Regards Eric

yachtsman1.

[Ken Cox]

PETER

I can see what looks like horizontal paint brush strokes on #1 and very slight strokes on #2 -- i had to magnify the pict's to be sure. #1 is worse than #2 -- because there is more sky to analyze

Can you not open the raw image observe - do a screen shot -save as jpeg - see if your problem is evident in the screenshot

and with the raw,do a straight save as high quality jpeg without any other gyrations and see if your prob is still evident

the other option - retake the picts as jpgs and as raw and see where the fault is being introduced

-- back in the 70's i was having problems in the darkroom developing b/w file with bubble spots on the film - a couple old guys were in the shop and said " always shoot a clear sky to sort out your processing problems" in my case i had to do a presoak if i used pan fx or plusx film - the bubbles went away

ken

[Ken Cox]

Peter

i put the 2 images on a stick and played them on my ws 37" tv -- definite "horizontal brush strokes"

beautiful pictures nevertheless

ken

[davegee]

Peter,

My first DSLR was a D70 and I then progressed through D200, D300 to D700.

In short (and generally speaking) you cannot save a D70 file at quality 6 - you are asking too much.

I still have loads of D70 files on my computer and go back from time to time.

I have found that when you go upwards through the pixel size of cameras you can then attempt lower quality settings for the JPEGs but IMHO a D70 file at quality 6 - no.

Try quality 8-10 and use "Save For The Web" - that way you can see both the original and the JPEG side by side and determine the best quality setting.

Someone with a 24MP camera can offer the suggestion to use quality 6, but for a D70 I would try a higher quality setting.

DG

[davegee]

Part two,

Interrupted by a delicious Beef Stroganoff.

I would add that your workflow for RAW should stay in the 16 Bit domain for as long as possible.

By saving as a 100% JPEG you are converting to 8 Bit too soon and losing much of the advantage of using RAW in the first place.

Replicating NX2 strategy, you would benefit from sending to PS, LR etc as a 16 Bit TIFF - a LOSSLESS conversion. The 16 Bit TIFFs can be deleted when no longer required.

I can replicate your skies in my D70 files (albeit in lower quality saves) and see the effect in a side by side comparison in "Save For The Web". By adjusting the JPEG quality the banding disappears and at the point it disappears it is safe to SAVE.

I also notice that you are including a Sharpening Step. NEVER sharpen skies! - When sharpening do it SELECTIVELY and leave any continuous tones such as skies unsharpened. You could possibly be sharpening too agressively?

A question (because I can't remember): Are you using the MAXIMUM RAW quality in Camera?

The D300 and D700 offer two levels of RAW - I can't remember if the D70 had the same facility.

I won't argue about your reasons for choosing LR or PS etc but I will say this: Everything that you list above can be achieved in NX2 WITHOUT leaving the RAW domain. For some purposes you would never need anything else.

More after tea - perhaps?

DG

P.S. I just downloaded the D70 Manual - ignore my remark about RAW Quality.

[Rickl]

Concur with DaveGee....

RAW to TIFF if you plan to edit an image further in PSE. I once read about the unwise practice of editing jpegs...

The issue of problem skies... Could it be posterization caused by the 8 bit jpeg conversion from RAW? The variations of color and tone in a smooth blue sky may not be fit in only 255 levels?

In my workflow, the jpg format is used in the final copy only. If I plan to edit the image further in PSE, I use a 16 bit TIFF format for the intermediate file. Since I use PSE rather than the full Photoshop, so I have to convert to 8 bit mode in PSE if I want to use the editing tools, but at least the conversion is much later in the process.

Hope this helps,

Dick

[fh1805]

Back myself after a break to do some serious shopping.

I decided I was being foolish building 1920x1080 sequences when I couldn't see them properly. So, purchase #1 has been a HP 2210i PC monitor. Its native resolution is 1920x1080 and I now understand what all you folks have been raving about - seeing your images at that kind of size and resolution. A real eye-opener! (sorry, couldn't resist that pun).

Purchase #2 was a pair of Bose Companion 2 PC speakers. I encountered a pair of these in use last weekend when they filled a medium-sized village hall with their sound - very impressive! Having replaced my Sony PC speakers I now realise that all my AV soundtracks actually have some bass frequencies. I can now hear - and sometimes feel - those base frequencies - bring on Widor's Toccata!!!!.

As a result of those purchases, my viewing experience has just gone up by several levels. This is not going to be good for my waistline. I'm going to be tempted to spend even more time in front of the computer.

However, back to my problems. I had already identified the need to delay the JPEG conversion by considering how I would have approached a similar problem with my audio workflow. In the audio flow I do everything with 16bit PCM WAV until the very last step when I export to MP3. (And that reminds me, that with my new speakers I now need to test a few different compression levels on the MP3 files. I might actually hear a difference now).

Anyway, back to the images... I've gone back into the workflow and exported from Lightroom as 16bit TIFFs. This led to the discovery that I cannot do much with 16bit TIFFs in Photoshop Elements, so went back and exported again at 8bit TIFF.

I then took the 8bit TIFF into Elements and did File Save As JPEGs, producing an image at each even numbered quality level (i.e. 0, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12). Then built a little PTE sequence showing each of these images in turn: 0 to 12 and back to 0. Sure enough, as Dave predicted, Q8 is the level at which the image becomes acceptable.

So the revised workflow, for the time being, will be to export as 8 bit TIFF and save the JPEGs at Q=8.

regards,

Peter

[davegee]

Peter,

I hope that some of the above is of some help.

The following has nothing to do with your problem but please read on.

A further advantage of using NX2 with a D70 is that it effectively upgrades some of the in-camera software of the D70 to the same as a D300 or D700.

As well as being able to read the COLOUR MODES of the D70 and reproduce your camera controls and exactly what you see in the camera's LCD (immediately and without intervention by you) it gives you the option of seeing how the image WOULD have looked had you chosen a different Colour Mode.

AND..........

It gives you access to the additional 8 Picture Controls of the D300 and D700 etc.

It won't turn your camera into a 12MP model but it is an extension of the camera which will allow you to retrospectively alter SOME of the controls at the taking stage.

I have been using it since I had my 5700 (prior to the D70) and won't be without it.

Just thought that you'd like to know?

DG

[davegee]

We were writing at the same time!

Does this now mean that we have one extra "vote" for 1920x1080 monitors and one less "vote" for 1280x1024?????

I was beginning to think that some would have me leave the POLL running until 1024x768 proved to be the most popular.

Seriously, I hope that you enjoy your new toy. It is like a lot of other things - until you try it you don't know!

Same goes for NX2.

BTW don't be tempted to Colour Manage until you are ABSOLUTELY sure that it needs it.

DG

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Hi Peter

After reading the comments about sky sharpening, I did a bit of investigating for myself as I very rarely use sharpening, particularly selective sharpening. I know you haven't got NX2 but you may be interested in the reply I got, you'll find it here.

http://www.flickr.com/groups/capturenx/discuss/72157624519317742/#comment72157624394886533

Regards Eric

Yachtsman1

[fh1805]

Many thanks to all those who have contributed to this topic. My workflow has been extensively modified by what you've taught me and what I have learned in addition whilst investigating your teachings. To summarise my new (but liable to further refinement) workflow:

• Image captured as Nikon RAW (.NEF) file and imported into Lightroom
  
• Highlight clipping and Black clipping warnings both activated
  
• White Balance adjusted if needed or desired
  
• Auto Tone investigated (sometimes used sometimes rejected)
  
• Use of Exposure, Recovery and Fill lighting to try and deal with any clipping
  
• Use of Clarity (seems to my eyes to offer a better (or should that just be different) option to sharpening
  
• Export as 8-bit TIFF (using 8-bit because Elements doesn't offer much tool support for 16-bit)
  
• Open the 8-bit TIFF in Photoshop Elements
  
• Check Levels using an adjustment layer
  
• Crop to desired size/composition
  
• Sharpen with Unsharp mask - using a selection to keep any large areas of even colour (e.g. sky) out of the sharpening process
  
• Save as JPEG quality 8
  

I feel I am now getting consistently better results than with my previous (and fundamentally flawed) workflow.

regards,

Peter

[davegee]

Glad it is working out for you, Peter.

I'm pretty sure that your adoption of RAW will benefit you greatly.

Without wishing to annoy you in any way I will re-iterate that ALL of the above can be done in NX2 without leaving the RAW/16Bit Domain bringing even greater benefits in terms of image quality.

DG

[Rickl]

Hi Peter,

Glad to hear things are working out...

Re saving in 8 bit tiff...

I have not tried this, but I wonder if conversion to 8 bit would be better done in PSE? ie. Save in 16 bit tiff from lightroom, and let PSE convert to 8 bit mode?

Too bad PSE does not handle 16 bit... I guess they have to have some incentive to force users to put down the big bucks for 16 bit processing...

Dick

[cjdnzl]

Hello Peter,

Just to add my tuppence worth, you don't say (or I haven't found where you do say) what color space you are using. Despite the claims for wider gamuts with Adobe RGB and Prophoto RGB, the choice for projection should still be sRGB, with a smaller gamut than either aRGB or pRGB. Part of the reason is that jpegs are only an 8-bit image, and the wider the gamut you are using the more widely spaced out the 256 available steps are, and this can lead to visible banding. The usual caveat with wide gamuts is to use 16-bit files, which have 4,096 steps between black and peak color, whereas 8-bit has only 256 steps to cover the same range of tone.

Colin

[davegee]

I sort of agree with Colin.

I shoot with the camera set to sRGB but this means nothing** until the image is opened in my RAW converter where it is assigned/converted to RGB colour space.

If it is necessary to send to CS4 as a 16 Bit file I have that also set to RGB.

My final step is then to flatten the file, change to 8 Bit and convert to sRGB via an action before saving as a JPEG.

Since the image stays in the 16 Bit RGB mode a lot longer it is less susceptible to banding for that reason.

DG

** I am not sure of my facts here, but I think that when shooting sRGB in-camera it means that the embedded JPEG which is used for thumbnails etc will show correct colours in a non-colour managed application. The embedded JPEG will also reflect the in-camera Colour Mode/Picture Control settings, but that is another issue.

Question for Peter: Are you seeing the thumbnail of your RAW file as an image OR as an ICON?

[fh1805]

Dick,

I'm assuming that the code that sets up the 8-bit file in Lightroom and the code that converts the 16-bit image to 8-bit in Elements is, if not identical, then based on the same algorithms. Therefore I save a mouse click or two on each image by doing the conversion as I leave Lightroom.

Colin,

Fair point! I am using sRGB throughout the workflow because the only use I make of my images is to project them when they have been built into AV sequences.

regards,

Peter

[fh1805]

Question for Peter: Are you seeing the thumbnail of your RAW file as an image OR as an ICON?

Dave,

Sorry but I don't fully understand your question. What thumbnail are we talking about? And how will I know whether it is a JPEG image file or an ICO file? Where will it be stored?

regards,

Peter

[davegee]

Sorry Peter,

I should have been a little more precise.

When you drag your NEF images into a folder on your HDD are you able to see a thumbnail of your image (a picture) or does it sit there as a NEF icon with its file number?

In Windows Explorer for instance.

DG

[fh1805]

Dave,

Ah, now I understand. It shows as a NEF icon - no image.

regards,

Peter

[davegee]

OK, in that case you need to find, download and install the Nikon NEF Codec which will allow you to see the embedded JPEG instead of the Icon.

Installing any Nikon Application such as View NX will do the same thing but if you don't want to do that you need the Codec.

Here you go:

http://nikonimglib.com/nefcodec/

DG

[fh1805]

Dave,

Magic! Thanks.

Now, be honest, this is just your first step in a "softly, softly" approach to get me to move over to Capture NX2, isn't it?

regards,

Peter

[davegee]

It's working, but don't tell anyone.

DG

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Peter

If I can use it, I'm sure you'll have no trouble. However why not try before you buy as suggested previously???, the straightening & cropping tools are a breeze & D lighting is a delight. Regards Eric.

Yachtsman1