Colour Management

[Ken Cox]

Urmas

i had 2 mentors during my darkroom days -- as i did some work for their shop. they wanted everything correct

the shadows on a white dress must be a faint gray -- no color

this was way before personal computors

the hardware calibration thing was discussed many moons ago on this forum and if my memory serves me right it was deemed unnecessary

hope my memory is correct

ken

[Urmas]

the hardware calibration thing was discussed many moons ago on this forum and if my memory serves me right it was deemed unnecessary

hope my memory is correct.

I do not remember such concent about calibration here. A link would be helpful.

If calibration using calibrator is unnecessary, tell then, why for example Eizo has different opinion on that? http://www.eizoglobal.com/library/management/management/02.html

[Ken Cox]

Tried to find the exact thread re why use a Spyder -- no luck

but i dont see any members refuting my claim

when was the last time you viewed a show on this forum where the colours were off?

i cant remember one

end of discussion as far as i am concerned

ken

[Urmas]

when was the last time you viewed a show on this forum where the colours were off?

i cant remember one

Just look within the same thread, Peter Posted Yesterday, 08:33 AM a sample exe demonstrating how colors are off when using PTE.

I also see no reason to go on with the dialogue here. If you can live without color management (or do not know how and where to use it yet(?)), good luck to you. Ii's not my problem. But why are you trying to spoil the party for those, who understand the topic? Wouldn't it be wise to accept, that there might be other well founded opinions and experience? And learn from that.

Igor understood the importance of color management very quickly and was able to make the color aware test pice of software within hours. Really well done and high level of expertise! (As a side product I have nice simple piece of software to demonstrate importance of color management in my lectures.) I am not alone who waits eagerly for the implementation of color management into next version of PTE. That's should be the priority No 1.Or shold I use the term MUST.

Each color-aware software has also an option to turn off (or not to use) color management, We disussed it with Igor also in PTE forum, that PTE probably should have such option as well. So, when the color awareness is made available in PTE, you can go on with your own workflow and I (and other color-aware users) can use color-managed workflow. So, nobody will get hurt and everybody will be happy. Complete win-win situation.

Urmas

[Ken Cox]

i just wish i had not mentioned gray scale

ken

[Urmas]

i just wish i had not mentioned gray scale

Grayscale is also a part of all color gamuts. You have brightness, but hue and saturation are 0. If colors are off, that's the problem. If grayscale is little off, that's the BIG problem .

Urmas

[Ken Cox]

here is a picture taken with my ipad aug 27 15

twas my belated 80th birthday present -- grandson Spencer pilot - grandson Joel in back seat and me the copilot

now on my monitor all our t shirts are white pict has not been adjusted

sorry we are upside down in the picture --- white is white

also when sent to my 37" panasonic tv -- white is white

ken

[Ken Cox]

oh btw

my daughter took a picture of the flight crew before we took off with her canonSX 30 IS

T SHIRTS STILL WHITE AND THE PLANE WHITE WITH BLUETRIM

exif data

Filename - IMG_8615.JPG

ImageDescription -

Make - Canon

Model - Canon PowerShot SX30 IS

Orientation - Top left

XResolution - 180

YResolution - 180

ResolutionUnit - Inch

DateTime - 2015:08:27 12:04:50

YCbCrPositioning - Co-Sited

ExifOffset - 240

ExposureTime - 1/1250 seconds

FNumber - 4.00

ISOSpeedRatings - 100

ExifVersion - 0230

DateTimeOriginal - 2015:08:27 12:04:50

DateTimeDigitized - 2015:08:27 12:04:50

ComponentsConfiguration - YCbCr

CompressedBitsPerPixel - 3 (bits/pixel)

ShutterSpeedValue - 1/1244 seconds

ApertureValue - F 4.00

ExposureBiasValue - 0.00

MaxApertureValue - F 2.71

MeteringMode - Multi-segment

Flash - Flash not fired, compulsory flash mode

FocalLength - 4.30 mm

UserComment -

FlashPixVersion - 0100

ColorSpace - sRGB

ExifImageWidth - 4320

ExifImageHeight - 3240

InteroperabilityOffset - 3774

FocalPlaneXResolution - 17777.78

FocalPlaneYResolution - 17802.20

FocalPlaneResolutionUnit - Inch

SensingMethod - One-chip color area sensor

FileSource - DSC - Digital still camera

CustomRendered - Normal process

ExposureMode - Auto

White Balance - Auto

DigitalZoomRatio - 1.00 x

SceneCaptureType - Standard

Maker Note (Vendor): -

Macro mode - Normal

Self timer - Off

Quality - Fine

Flash mode - Not fired

Sequence mode - Single or Timer

Focus mode - Single

Image size - Large

Easy shooting mode - Full Auto

Digital zoom - None

Contrast - Normal

Saturation - Normal

Sharpness - Normal

ISO Value - Auto

Metering mode - Evaluative

Focus type - Auto

AF point selected - 16390

Exposure mode - Easy shooting

Focal length - 430 - 15050 mm (100 mm)

Flash activity - Not fired

Flash details -

Focus mode 2 - Continuous

Auto ISO - 1

Base ISO - 100

White Balance - Auto

Sequence number - 0

Flash bias - 0 EV

Subject Distance - 0.00

Image Type - IMG:PowerShot SX30 IS JPEG

Firmware Version - Firmware Version 1.00

Image Number - 1558615

Owner Name -

Sharpness (EOS 1D) - 0

Directory index (EOS 450D) - 82432

AF point selected - Multi-point AF or AI AF

Num AF Points - 9

Valid AF Points - 9

AF Image Width - 100

AF Image Height - 100

Thumbnail: -

Compression - 6 (JPG)

XResolution - 180

YResolution - 180

ResolutionUnit - Inch

JpegIFOffset - 5108

JpegIFByteCount - 3996

[JudyKay]

I am probably putting out crumbs to bring crows picking an attack, but I suspect that other than printing, all the fuss about perfect colors is largely bunk. Obviously, they can be off far enough to matter, but the post-processing done by our brain producing what we actually "see" has a whole lot more latitude than a difference of say R 50 vs R 55.

Right or wrong?

Having said that I worry about it anyway.

[morturn]

I am probably putting out crumbs to bring crows picking an attack, but I suspect that other than printing, all the fuss about perfect colors is largely bunk. Obviously, they can be off far enough to matter, but the post-processing done by our brain producing what we actually "see" has a whole lot more latitude than a difference of say R 50 vs R 55.

Right or wrong?

Having said that I worry about it anyway.

Right, its easy to over think things, especially the ones you have a passion for and are in love with.

[PGA]

Peter

I can see a slight difference, and would say that the even number images have slightly more contract. Do bear in mind that my colour vision is not very good anyway, but the even number images just look a little brighter. Are you going to tell us which one was what?

The odd numbers were Adobe RGB (1998) and the evens were sRGB.

I'm not a professional photographer. I'm not a club photographer. I'm not interested in trying to win competitions with my work. All I want to do is produce sequences that give pleasure to the members of various local organisations. Therefore I want my images to have good visual impact. And to my eyes the sRGB ones have the better visual impact.

[Urmas]

Ken,

Downloaded your photos. Looked at them on my monitor. Checked histogram and numbers. Here are the results of my little investigation:

1) Neither of your photos has a color profile. Since they are made with compact camera, probably out-of-camera jpg-s, I assumed sRGB. When you use images without color tag in presentations or simply view them on different computers, results are always different. If you look them on Adobe RGB capable monitor, colors are oversaturated. In photo editing softare, however you can always assign proper color profile before showing the image.

Upside-down photo

1) White t-shirts are mostly blown-out. The numbers show 255-255-255 in all channels. Because of clipping in all channels this area actually does not have color information and also details are lost. You may only quess the color. It does not matter, if you present it on display (TV-s have often overhelming dynamic contrast) with too much contrast, you will see blown-out area as white on any display.

2) White t-shirts around blown-out areas show slight blue cast what is normal since the pilot (?) wears blue shirt and blue color from it reflects on white surfaces.

Photo with a plane and three men in front of it.

1) It is underexposured because white is not while but more like light grey. That is typical scenario when autoexposure is used to photograph bright subjects. Next time your daughter needs to dial in an exposure compensation.

2) Photo has incorrect white balance settings and hence the white is not white but actually has quite obvious blue cast. Again, auto white balance settings in compact cameras often result incorrect values. RGB numbers on plane tail: R: 208; G: 223; B: 230. If the plain is white, the numbers should be the same or very close.

3) "White" T-shirt colors from left to right: R: 205; G: 206; B: 224 * R: 202; G: 207; B: 227 * R: 208; G: 215; B: 233. For the boys some blue cast on shirts is normal again because they wear blue jackets. On your t-shirt it should be much less. But again, it is because of incorrect white balance.

That tells the story.

Judy Kay, morturn, PGA and many others

In my photographic lectures I often ask the audience, who works behind calibrated professional grade monitor. In best case scenario 1 out of 30 raises hand. Usually none.

If I explain what it means, show how it is done and compare the results before and after, everybody understands.

It is probably true, that majority of people who take photographs (as hobby) and present them to others, do not know, do not understand and do not care about color management. Judging from the discussions here it seems, that among PTE users the ratio 1 out of 30 is quite similar or even less.

Color management is something, that can be applied and used easily. It is not a rocket science. And once you see the results, there is no way back.

There are numerous features requested by many users I personally find unnecessary or I have the workaround using other pieces of dedicated software for image, video and sound editing. However, I never complain about such requests because I also try to understand the reasons behind it. And If Igor and his team has resources to implement it, let it be. It is usual, that we use mostly around 10% of particular software features.

Color management is something, that has no workaround or alternative. Having color-managed image editor and calibrated display/projector do not help with not color managed slideshow software.

If there are people not willing or are afraid to learn new useful tricks. God bless them. But it should be also fair to expect them not to try to cut wings of those, who would like to fly.

Urmas

[davegee]

http://blog.datacolor.com/david-cardinal-taming-color-in-your-slideshows/

[Ray Groome]

I fully endorse Urmas's comments.

Judging from the above article by datacolor, ProShow Producer are addressing the topic.

Ray Groome

[jt49]

I would like to second the demand of Urmas and others for color management in PTE. A professional AV program should offer it, like Proshow Producer and the (expensive) Austro-German competitors.

I would like to see the Proshow options as shown in the SpyderBlog pointed out by davegee (with an additional option on embedded profiles), but also dynamic color management where conversions of images will take place during execution (causing some loss of performance).

Regards,

jt

[davegee]

"sRGB is a great baseline

If you only take away one piece of advice from this article it should be that converting to sRGB is the best single safety net in image preparation. Unless you are certain your image will be color-managed correctly when it leaves your hands, you should convert it to sRGB. An image in any other colorspace will look bad – typically unsaturated, for example – on a system that isn’t properly calibrated and managed."

DG

[jt49]

"sRGB is a great baseline ..."

DG

Indeed, this article provides information that can be regarded as misleading. In my opinion there is no alternative to learning the basics of color management. Once having understood them, it is so obvious to see that the recommendation "Always use sRGB" may not always be a good one

Regards,

jt

[Urmas]

"sRGB is a great baseline

If you only take away one piece of advice from this article it should be that converting to sRGB is the best single safety net in image preparation. Unless you are certain your image will be color-managed correctly when it leaves your hands, you should convert it to sRGB. An image in any other colorspace will look bad – typically unsaturated, for example – on a system that isn’t properly calibrated and managed."

The sRGB advice in reality is a game of probabilities, more of like gambling. In exceptional cases you might hit the second price, usually you lose.

It is quite a funny myth, that (good) sRGB gamut is default everywhere. Actually in practice I have yet to see a projector with precise uniform gamut.

As an example, see the attached file. It compares sRGB gamut (wireframe) with the gamut of my reasonably-priced projector (solid). It is already discontinued Canon LV8320 in cinema mode. That's the price-perfomance ratio I could afford few years ago. Could not rely on projectors usually available in random lecture rooms. Still goes strong and has reasonable image quality.

The gamut of that projector is not uniform. It can show much more yellows and slightly more blues than sRGB gamut. But less greens and reds. It is quite typical scenario for LCD-projectors. Have calibrated three different projectors (more advanced from also Canon and one from Epson). Different gamuts, but similar pattern.

So, if you throw sRGB image in not-color-managed way to not-uniform-gamut projector, it shows oversaturated yellows-blues and so-so greens-reds. But what if you are showing a presentation where yellow is very important?

At the moment I get better results with that particular projector when I use Adobe RGB images instead of sRGB images in PicturestoExe slideshows. Neither is perfect. Only color-managed workflow can handle such situations and get the most out of it.

In real life - the worse and less uniform your projector/display is, the more you need a color-managed workflow and benefit from it.

[Lin Evans]

There is no doubt that having color management is an important future feature for PTE, but I must agree with David, Barry and Peter that perhaps it's overstated as an issue if by no other reason than simple logical deduction. PTE is by far the choice of those winning audio visual competitions. If color management were a serious issue, then it would long ago have been a hot topic for discussion. The fact that the competition has color management yet has only a tiny presence in competitive circles seems to indicate that most have been doing well without it for quite a long time.

This is not to diminish the importance of including it and I believe that this will probably be done shortly, but with or without color management, if the devices used to either project the show or to display the show have limited and irregular gamuts then the problems are distributed with or without this feature.

Hopefully the Wnsoft development team will be able to include it in the next iteration of PTE and that should make everyone happy.

Best regards,

Lin

[Tonton Bruno]

"sRGB is a great baseline

If you only take away one piece of advice from this article it should be that converting to sRGB is the best single safety net in image preparation. Unless you are certain your image will be color-managed correctly when it leaves your hands, you should convert it to sRGB. An image in any other colorspace will look bad – typically unsaturated, for example – on a system that isn’t properly calibrated and managed."

It is that I do since 1999, and I will continue to do so for each image I will process in the next five years.

Of course under Photoshop I use 16 bit PRoPhoto or Adobe colorspace, but Every time an image is processed under Photoshop, DXO or NikonViewNx, I save the result in jpg format and sRGB colorspace.

PTE color space management will be a good thing, but I will continue to include in my projects only sRGB images.

[Urmas]

In 2007 here in PTE forum I also stated, that calibrating projectors is of no use. What was 8 years ago? It was the time, when Apple reduced price of Cinema Display (sRGB gamut) and made it available at reasonable price (also for PC users). I recall many photographers buying it then. And we started to get better results than before. However, there were only handful good quality projectors in production and their price was out of thinking and reach not only for personal use but for most organisations. First time I saw my digital images presented quite accurately (yes, all sRGB!), was during Fürstenfeld festival in Germany (2007) with the projector having the cost of a medium-sized car. And it wasn't a rare sight to see slides being projected in old-fashioned way.

We have seen quite a bit of development in imaging technology within last 8 years.

Fingers crossed and waiting.

Urmas

[JudyKay]

It is that I do since 1999, and I will continue to do so for each image I will process in the next five years.

Of course under Photoshop I use 16 bit PRoPhoto or Adobe colorspace, but Every time an image is processed under Photoshop, DXO or NikonViewNx, I save the result in jpg format and sRGB colorspace.

PTE color space management will be a good thing, but I will continue to include in my projects only sRGB images.

Exactly.

Umas, I appreciate what you are saying and probably you have a keener eye for the future than I have. That is why we need to share ideas together like this. Thanks for helping us think ahead, and I know Igor will as well.

[Urmas]

Thanks for the understanding and support. Just to explain things a bit further. If it was a perfect world, where our images can contain all visible colors (DSLR raw-s are already pretty close), all our displays show all visible colors, all our projectors show all visible colors and all printed images reflect all visible colors - all our output devices can show all visible colors. (Probably using 16-bit Lab color model and some new printing technology.) Only in such perfect world we would not need color management. Because everything is correct by default.

In reality with different devices and different image sources all having different color capabilities do not expect, that color management will make the same image look precisely the same on all output devices. No, that is not the case mostly. Yes, the reds are and still will be reds and blues are blues etc. But there are differences.

What color management does? The color management engine knows both - the input image colors and the output device color capabilities. Now the input colors are "translated" into output device color space so that the relative intensity of colors is retained as close as possible. Tonal gradations are retained as close as possible. Color hues are retained as close as possible. And so the overall look of the image is presented as close as output device is capable of. Sometimes as close as possibe may mean a perfect match.

Few case scenarios.

• The presented images have equal or smaller color gamut than that of the output devices. In this case color management makes all images look the same on all output devices. You will see sRGB images same on all calibrated sRGB or AdobeRGB (or larger) capable devices. You will see Adobe RGB images look the same on all Adobe RGB capable devices. And if you show the sRGB image on two displays, one having sRGB gamut and another Adobe RGB gamut, they still look the same. Without color management smaller gamut input color would be oversaturated on larger gamut output device. Those who switched from sRGB monitors to Adobe RGB monitors suddenly realised, that desktop icons got very "sparky" because desktop icons are not color managed.
• The presented images have larger color space than output decive has. Now the displayed image has different (absolute) colors on different devices with different gamuts, but color management takes care, that the image preceptual qualities are retained. Adobe RGB images do not look washed out on smaller gamut devices like they used to be without color management. And sRGB images would not look washed with projectors and displays having even smaller color gamut (plenty of them around).
• The output device has irregular color gamut. Again, color management knows it and makes best out of it. Without color manamegent, some colors look oversaturated, some are muddy.

Lately Canon announced the development of very interesting projector. http://www.canon.com/news/2015/sep01e.html

Probably it will initially have a price of the medium-sized car. But things look promising. When we will get color management right, we can start to wonder about presenting details where PTE engine is already very good .

All the best,

Urmas

[JudyKay]

Color management is clearer to me than it has ever been. I appreciate your time and effort to present so well.

[Urmas]

Hi everyone!

Just use the attached file in PTE and then look at it in color managed software.

I took the image from here

Urmas