Colour Management

[Ray Groome]

I wish to suggest that it would be great help if PTE was colour managed.

As high specification monitors become more popular more people will have monitors that will work in the Adobe RGB colour space. If these are used to display PTE shows with sRGB images, users will be very disappointed with the results as they will appear over saturated.

In the meantime I recommend you advise those using sRGB images to set their monitors on the sRGB colour space, rather than Adobe RGB. I learnt this the hard way! (Not all monitors give this choice, however).

This is not a problem with cheaper monitors as they are likely to be limited to the sRGB colour space.

[Urmas]

I'll strongly second to that. Wide gamut devices are already here.

[davegee]

What would be the effect those without wide Gamut monitors?

DG

[Ken Cox]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamut

TO SAVE PEOPLE FROM LOOKING

KEN

[pbar]

I fully agree that color management is a must. I have a wide gamut monitor and I avoid using non colour managed applications. For that reason I stopped using P2E already for a while (and regret it).

Regards.

[Urmas]

Color management means, that in the process of displaying particular media, both, the input media color space (image or video file color profile) and output device calibration profile (screen or projector color capabilities) are taken into account. Correspondingly the best available possibilities and capabilities to show color information are analyzed and used (on a fly). And the image on the monitor or screen is as correct as possible under the particular presentation environment.

Today the color management is a useful feature in multimedia software. Some have it, some not. Tomorrow it is the must feature defining which product survives and which does not. As simple as that.

So far PTE has been excellent product and its capabilities of high quality transitions and animations are state of art. Introducing style features recently has been long waited valuable and useful feature. No complaints whatsoever. Hats down from Igor's team. I have been happy PTE user for years. And I am sure, they can incorporate color management into next PTE release. I hope color management is on top of their ToDo list.

[Igor]

Thanks, we'll try to add the color management in future version(s) of PicturesToExe.

Please see my question here:

[Politer]

Thanks, we'll try to add the color management in future version(s) of PicturesToExe.

Please see my question here:

http://www.picturestoexe.com/forums/index.php?/topic/17447-test-of-color-management/

Will the next major upgrade of PTE to Version 9 include the Color Management Feature ?

Thanks - Paul

[-noel-]

Thanks, we'll try to add the color management in future version(s) of PicturesToExe.

Please see my question here:

http://www.picturestoexe.com/forums/index.php?/topic/17447-test-of-color-management/

Hello Igor,

Any news here with the "color management" topic ? Will the next version have color management and will PTE work with the windows display profile ?

Best regards

Eberhard

[cjdnzl]

Will the next major upgrade of PTE to Version 9 include the Color Management Feature ?

Thanks - Paul

Probably not. Igor said "we'll try to add the color management in future version(s) of PicturesToExe." Not the very next version. You guys who want it now now now don't appreciate the pressure you are putting on Igor. Just back off a little please.

[cjdnzl]

Hello Igor,

Any news here with the "color management" topic ? Will the next version have color management and will PTE work with the windows display profile ?

Best regards

Eberhard

See my reply to Politer. It's only just been mooted, for goodness' sake!

[Urmas]

Probably not. Igor said "we'll try to add the color management in future version(s) of PicturesToExe." Not the very next version. You guys who want it now now now don't appreciate the pressure you are putting on Igor. Just back off a little please.

Next version is also a future version. Hopefully.

Igor actually understood and solved (in test app) the problem very quickly. Don't think that implementing it will be too hard pressure anymore.

I suspect, we'll get the answer quite soon.

[Barry Beckham]

Am I out of step here, because I can think of a hundred improvements that I think should be thought of before colour management. I didn't even know colour in PTE was broken. Does PTE need to fix something that works.

Convince me?

[PGA]

I am unconvinced of the value of colour profiles for AV work. I would be interested in the reaction of forum users to this little test sequence. See Dropbox link at end of post.

The sequence uses just one image, but two versions of that image: one saved as sRGB JPEG and one saved as Adobe RGB (1998) JPEG. The sequence shows the images one after the other, and repeats that three times. Each slide shows its slide number as a Text comment at the top of the screen.

My question to you all is: Which has greater visual impact, the odd numbers or the even numbers?

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/15623351/AV%20Sequences%20%28Others%29/Colour%20Profiles%202.zip

The show is manually controlled. use the arrow keys to move forwards or backwards

[Urmas]

Am I out of step here, because I can think of a hundred improvements that I think should be thought of before colour management. I didn't even know colour in PTE was broken. Does PTE need to fix something that works.

Convince me?

To convince specially you, I need to know how is/isn't your photographic workflow organised and color managed (software, harwdare). I disagree that it is of least importance in PTE develpment. In fact, it is the last single piece of software in my workflow what is not color managed. And that is a problem.

I am unconvinced of the value of colour profiles for AV work. I would be interested in the reaction of forum users to this little test sequence. See Dropbox link at end of post.

The sequence uses just one image, but two versions of that image: one saved as sRGB JPEG and one saved as Adobe RGB (1998) JPEG. The sequence shows the images one after the other, and repeats that three times. Each slide shows its slide number as a Text comment at the top of the screen.

My question to you all is: Which has greater visual impact, the odd numbers or the even numbers?

Color management is not about what has greater visual impact in randomly (un)organised conditions. Color managment is about to get predictable results in controlled and properly organised workflow. When you know what is going to happen with you images on the screen, then you will be able to provide always the best possible visual impact to the audience.

In your test sequence odd numbers display correct color, even number are oversaturated on my calibrated 100% Adobe RGB space.

Urmas

[Lin Evans]

Hi Peter,

It will be seen differentially depending on the color calibration, type of display and even in some cases the browser. I too see little value in color profiles for the vast majority, but some professional photographers who work in Photoshop save their work in wider gamut colorspace than sRGB even though "most" displays and browsers today use sRGB. So for these photographers whose images are in other colorspace it's a pain to have to save copies in sRGB to use in their slideshows. Having a colorspace aware program solves this issue. It would be nice if the feature could be turned off or on as an option. Admittedly, having this capability will only be important to a few users, but if it's not a major issue to implement, it would be an added feature to make those who use other than sRGB very happy.

Best regards,

Lin

[Guest Yachtsman1]

I am unconvinced of the value of colour profiles for AV work. I would be interested in the reaction of forum users to this little test sequence. See Dropbox link at end of post.

The sequence uses just one image, but two versions of that image: one saved as sRGB JPEG and one saved as Adobe RGB (1998) JPEG. The sequence shows the images one after the other, and repeats that three times. Each slide shows its slide number as a Text comment at the top of the screen.

My question to you all is: Which has greater visual impact, the odd numbers or the even numbers?

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/15623351/AV%20Sequences%20%28Others%29/Colour%20Profiles%202.zip

The show is manually controlled. use the arrow keys to move forwards or backwards

Peter, the even numbers have more saturation on my set up.

Regs Eric

Yachtsman1.

[morturn]

Peter

I can see a slight difference, and would say that the even number images have slightly more contract. Do bear in mind that my colour vision is not very good anyway, but the even number images just look a little brighter. Are you going to tell us which one was what?

[Urmas]

Hi Peter,

It will be seen differentially depending on the color calibration, type of display and even in some cases the browser. I too see little value in color profiles for the vast majority, but some professional photographers who work in Photoshop save their work in wider gamut colorspace than sRGB even though "most" displays and browsers today use sRGB. So for these photographers whose images are in other colorspace it's a pain to have to save copies in sRGB to use in their slideshows. Having a colorspace aware program solves this issue. It would be nice if the feature could be turned off or on as an option. Admittedly, having this capability will only be important to a few users, but if it's not a major issue to implement, it would be an added feature to make those who use other than sRGB very happy.

Best regards,

Lin

Lin,

Most modern browsers are already color managed (http://www.color-management-guide.com/web-browser-color-management.html). Regarding displays and projectors (hardware) I agree, that most (used in simple office work) are not even sRGB capable and most of them are not calibrated. However, I suspect, that you would not like to use such monitors in you own workflow when preparing photos and presentations. And I also susupect that you would not like to use such projectors to show presentations to the audience :-).

100% Adobe RGB capable displays and projectors are here and most professionals (Except Retina display users) use them.

Urmas

[Barry Beckham]

Urmas

Perhaps it will dawn on me when I become more experienced. Perhaps you can define this workflow that will help me understand

[Urmas]

Urmas

Perhaps it will dawn on me when I become more experienced. Perhaps you can define this workflow that will help me understand

Basically, your RGB (most used color model) image has a color profile tag defining actual colors because RGB is a relative color model, depending on color profile (say sRGB or Adobe RGB) same RGB numbers say R: 50 G:120 B:80 result in different color.

Your output device, in our case a display or projector has its capabilities. The best are usually around 100% Adobe RGB and then there are others. Even the factory calibrated displays and projectors need hardware-based calibration (X-rite for example makes calibrators) to precisely know its capabilities and create profile for the device. You calibrate the system basically starting from video card and ending with display panel..The same display/projector may behave differently with different inputs from different video cards. And for the projector, its color reproduction also depends on screen material, room (wall and ceiling) colors, room lightness etc. Usually white balance needs adjstments and calibration takes care of it as well.

Now the color aware software in between knows the input file color values and knows the output device profile and now translates the colors the best possible and predictable way.

You can use different color gamuts in your input files, but they are shown correctly in case of output device has same or larger color gamut.

If output device has smaller color gamut, all images will bee shown similar.

That's the basics. More profound explanation is here http://www.color-management-guide.com/color-management-summary.html. You can also google "color management".

To illustrate the capabilities of different devices I attach a comparison of two devices. Wireframe is a computer display having nearly 101% of Adobe RGB gamut. Solid is my reasonably priced projector I bought few years ago to get predictable results when having presentations on the road. These gamuts are results of actual calibrationd made with i1 Display Pro.

Edit: Somehow could not attatch the file here so had to upload the illustration to Google Drive: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7Wqj0nElbxfLUNFTkt2NXpOX3M

[Ken Cox]

Peter

on my monitor -- even #'s theni put it up to my 37" panasonic tv via hdmi - 12 ft from my desk -- the ivy and roadway were far brighter [even#'s] odd #'s appear flat

thks for the demo

ken

i rechecked the monitor with

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/calibrate-your-monitor-theory,3615-6.html

[Urmas]

i rechecked the monitor with

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/calibrate-your-monitor-theory,3615-6.html

Ken,

Proofing monitor using paterns and images on webpage is better than nothing but insufficient for proper results. The webpage you pointed, does not have even color profiles atached to their sample images. While greyscale images are so-so, the color test image is far from reality because of missing color profiles.

For further reading here is the introduction of calibration: http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/monitor-calibration.htm

Urmas

[Ken Cox]

Umas

THKS FOR THE INFO

but

i use the grayscale to set up my monitors, -- have done so since win 3.

monitors generally come out of the box with everything ramped to the top - they want to sell monitors))

in the past i would scan a macbeth color card and compare things to my liking - from my darkroom days --

i try to set up to a "known value" example a Ontario automobile with its license plate showing -- it is white with blue letters

when i did internal boiler inspections i would always include a known value in the first frame -- my critics knew that i could adjust the colour of boiler scale to make it look good but a Pentel pencil or a 6" ruler was a KNOWN value

ken

[Urmas]

Ken,

You might be the second person I know who as absolute color vision (like absolute hearing in some musicians). If you are happy with your results, I am happy also. I am not that capable.

I have yet to see a monitor whith linear tone curve, that setting one color accurate makes everything else accurate as well. Usually profiles I get after hardware calibration are nonlinear. And I have yet to see a monitor what has 100% accurate colors out of box, Even those, where producer claims so, are always better after hardware calibration. sometimes differnces are small, sometimes bigger. That's normal, since video card may play it's role as well.

I still strongly suggest hardware calibration for both - monitor and projector. The device costs about 1.5 times the PTE Deluxe licence and is many times less that Adobe Photoshop or Sony Vegas. Or compared to camera- it is like cheapest compact camera. Well spent money.

Urmas