Comments on slide shows

[Almark]

OK, give me a link to one of your shows, tell me who it is intended for and I will happily show it at our next CC meeting - report back. Let me know where and how you want the feedback.

[LumenLux]

Thanks Mark, I will link a couple of possibles to you soon. As to how your club's input is communicated - I would suggest it be via this PTE forum. I have always appreciated the things I learn via this forum although the topic or discussion was not aimed at me at all. By having your club report here, there is a chance that others besides me will benefit.

[deskjet1uk]

Interesting statement from Xaver regarding not commenting on slide shows.

Quote, "Posted 18 August 2010 - 11:29 PM

Normally I do not send comments on slide shows presented in this forum. In most cases, there isn't much positive to say, and giving comments that are not all favorable often causes trouble".

If this is general then why do some of us bother to post, surely its best to have constructive criticism as well as positive remarks, I for one need to learn, hence my membership of this site, otherwise why bother.

Its also interesting that people put shows up and do not bother to leave a comment about other people's shows.

This is just an observation and not intended to upset anyone but Xaver leaving a remark like that made me think and I'm glad he has expressed his feelings.

Good or bad, I welcome comments, I love PTE and want to improve and am grateful for all the help I can get.

Interesting to hear what others feel about this. (good or bad please, I can take it )

regards to all

Ralph

[davegee]

Ralph,

"Normally I do not send comments on slide shows presented in this forum. In most cases................giving comments that are not all favorable often causes trouble".

Been there done that!!

(good or bad please, I can take it )

Not everybody can!!

It seems that the right thing to say when asking for comments is:

Comments requested - GOOD or BAD!

OR

Comments requested - but only GOOD ones!

DG

[deskjet1uk]

DG,

thanks for taking the time to reply.

I gather that this has been brought up before, but for the benefit of new members topics should be re-discussed.

Some regular visitors do not read all topics so it must be impossible for new members to trawl through past postings.

Constructive criticism will help one and all, none of us are to old to learn and surely if we want to improve we should be grateful to anyone who leaves comments (good or bad)

Thanks again for your comments

Ralph

[fh1805]

Ralph/Dave,

I think there are at least two separate aspects of this subject area.

Firstly, as one who is a respected and much requested judge among the local camera clubs, I know from my own experience just how hard it can be to give bad news in a constructive manner. Explaining what is wrong with an image or sequence in a way that sounds positive is a hugely difficult challenge.

Secondly, everyone who puts their work up for comment is laying themselves open to a big disappointment. They have poured their soul into that work. To them it is the best thing since sliced bread. But to those who are more advanced in their skills or have a different perspective of the world, it could come across as boring, mundane, lacking in finesse or whatever. To put your own work up for judgement by others, you must have a thick skin yourself. Not everyone does. I know of two member of my own club who no longer submit work into the comeptitions because their work fell foul of an "assassin" of a judge who couldn't say anything good about any work. Needless to say that judge has never been invited back - but the damage was done for those two members.

And on a forum such as this we must carry a third aspect in mind at all times: the potential difficulties caused by using English as the forum language. For many of our members English is not their native tongue (for all I know it might even be a second language for Dave if he is a Welsh-speaker). The problem that I have observed numerous times is that caused by an English-speaker using a particular idiom that then does not translate quite the same into a foreign language. And this problem then gets compounded when the foreign language reply is translated into English.

We must all of us practice tolerance, patience and kindness in our dealings with one another on this and any other forum.

And if anyone finds themselves wanting to comment about a sequence and the comment is about something that you feel is wrong - don't say that it's wrong. Instead, explain how you would have done it differently.

regards,

Peter

[deskjet1uk]

Peter,

As you know from first hand experience, I respect your comments to the full, having met you at our camera club and knowing your work.

Thank you so much for taking time to reply along with DG. Your remarks are most welcomed.

We all have to learn from our mistakes, some stare us in the face but we are blind to them.

We used to be told to show our sequences to people we know before showcasing them at the various camera clubs we belong to, some people I know do not have that luxury and I feel that this forum could be a massive help to those who are unable to showcase sequences.

So my request would be, to help wherever we can (good or bad)

Peter, thank you once again

Ralph

[Nikonos]

Ralph/Dave,

I think there are at least two separate aspects of this subject area.

Firstly, as one who is a respected and much requested judge among the local camera clubs, I know from my own experience just how hard it can be to give bad news in a constructive manner. Explaining what is wrong with an image or sequence in a way that sounds positive is a hugely difficult challenge.

Secondly, everyone who puts their work up for comment is laying themselves open to a big disappointment. They have poured their soul into that work. To them it is the best thing since sliced bread. But to those who are more advanced in their skills or have a different perspective of the world, it could come across as boring, mundane, lacking in finesse or whatever. To put your own work up for judgement by others, you must have a thick skin yourself. Not everyone does. I know of two member of my own club who no longer submit work into the comeptitions because their work fell foul of an "assassin" of a judge who couldn't say anything good about any work. Needless to say that judge has never been invited back - but the damage was done for those two members.

And on a forum such as this we must carry a third aspect in mind at all times: the potential difficulties caused by using English as the forum language. For many of our members English is not their native tongue (for all I know it might even be a second language for Dave if he is a Welsh-speaker). The problem that I have observed numerous times is that caused by an English-speaker using a particular idiom that then does not translate quite the same into a foreign language. And this problem then gets compounded when the foreign language reply is translated into English.

We must all of us practice tolerance, patience and kindness in our dealings with one another on this and any other forum.

And if anyone finds themselves wanting to comment about a sequence and the comment is about something that you feel is wrong - don't say that it's wrong. Instead, explain how you would have done it differently.

regards,

Peter

Very well put Peter. As a novice PTE user I find comments (good or bad) very welcome and I have tried to view as many sequences as possible and leave comments of a constructive nature. I agree it is very difficult not to upset some people, but even the most dire show usually has a few redeeming features... I too have come across the "assassin" type of judge who has a really blinkered perspective in what they consider praiseworthy. A judges job is indeed a very difficult one - how on earth to you score an outstanding natural history picture against a similar landscape image? You have summed it all up beautifully by saying "We must all of us practice tolerance, patience and kindness in our dealings with one another". After all - the whole idea of this forum is to share ideas, techniques etc. and to improve our shows. We never, ever, stop learning and after forty years as a full-time professional photographer I know I certainly am!

Malcolm

[xahu34]

...

And if anyone finds themselves wanting to comment about a sequence and the comment is about something that you feel is wrong - don't say that it's wrong. Instead, explain how you would have done it differently

...

This sounds nice, but if someone comes up and tells me that he would do most things in a different way, then I will know that my work is not considered to be good, isn't it?

Let us look at a practical example: The Le Mans Show of Ralph. The comments given in the forum are all very nice, but they cannot be considered as helpful, as the author will not learn anything on the improvement of his work (exception: The remark of DG on the resolution figures). Without going into details, when looking at this show, I could easily imagine the following subjects of discussion: 1. Image quality (a favorite subject of Barry Beckham, and of me, too), 2. Choice of the music (does the song's lyrics match the subject of the show), 3. Technical aspects of image placement and transitions, 4. Synchronization of transitions with respect to the rhythm of the music, 5. Dramatic composition. Perhaps the author himself may watch his work regarding these aspects.

I doubt that it will be possible to give a deep and helpful analysis of a presentation without saying (directly or indirectly) what is wrong; but maybe that I am wrong!?

Regards,

Xaver

[deskjet1uk]

Xaver,

Thank you for taking the time to post a reply on this topic.

Your observations on the Le mans show are personally the exact things which I as a novice would welcome, I am here to learn.

If people are so kind enough to let me in on there superior knowledge then I am truly grateful to them.

My Le mans show was put together over two years ago, I have learnt so much since thanks to this forum and I will take all comments onboard and implement changes as described in the re-build.

Thanks so much again Xaver

Ralph

[Barry Beckham]

Ralph

What a can of worms you have opened, but Peter does sum it all up rather well. To be a judge you have to be a politician, but to be a politician you then need to sit on the fence. As Peter says you try hard to be positive, while keeping comments constructive, but sometime that is almost impossible. Sitting on the fence also means that the comments will be bland and almost useless.

The answer? I don't have one, I wish I did.

Most people are so concerned about causing upset that they say little at all that helps the author. In fact if a show is posted that perhaps is not quite to the usual stanadard you will notice fewer comments. Simple answer is it's easier to say nothing than risk the wrath of the person who only really wants adulation.

If you want real comments, don't put your show up for general comment at all. Post it for general interest to all, but just ask one or two members for the real feedback your looking for, either privately or in the forum if you wish. How do you find them ? Simple, look at what the members produce in their own slide shows and approach those who your happy to receive feedback from.

[trailertrash]

Well, this is an interesting topic. As the low guy on the food chain here, I do have some thoughts on this. Judges! Take what you want from their comments and disregard the rest. I've sat in our club and laughed at some of the comments eminating from the great and good.

However in this forum I find the advice and critique given invaluable. I cite my own Auschwitz show which the forum members spent some considerable time helping me get the best I could out of.

As for comments. Well I find it disappointing when I see a show with 200 views and 3 comments and they only say nice work or well done. Have the viewers really nothing to say, good or critical?

I welcome critique be it good or scathing. It makes me work harder, use my imagination more and most importantly it helps me learn. The OP said In most cases, there isn't much positive to say

thats pretty damning of the standard of shows here isnt it? If that is indeed the case, we have a catch22 situation. No-one will comment on the shows cause mostly they're rubbish, but we cant learn how to improve cause no-one tells us whats wrong!!! result...you may as well shut this forum now, since it apparently serves no usefull purpose. Which would then leave people like me with no possibility of improving since there is nowhere else to seek advice. Consequence... we all end up using Proshow!!!!!!

[fh1805]

I've realised that there is another factor at work, one which I had completely over-looked until earlier this morning: time!

It takes time to download a sequence, time to watch it, time to think about it, time to prepare a reply. I used Ralph's Le Mans sequence to investigate this aspect of commenting on shows. It took about 2 mins to download. It took however long it runs to watch it (I didn't time that bit). It took several minutes to gather my thoughts. And, surprisingly to me, it took almost 30 minutes to key them in, proof read them, correct them, amend them, etc. to the point where I was happy to commit them and post them. All in all, probably the best part of an hour for one sequence.

At that rate of progress I cannot afford to look at more than one sequence in any day and probably only two or three in a week. One hour is a huge chunk of time out of my "unallocated" hours.

So here's another reason why the comments either don't come in at all or are fairly bland when they do. Folks cannot spare the time to do a thorough job.

regards,

Peter

[trailertrash]

But Peter, Ron posted a show in the show forum,and has a barrow load of replies already!!!!

[dpletts]

As someone who has only fairly recently discovered the joys of making slideshows with this software, having never made slideshows at all before, I don't feel particularly qualified to give constructive criticism on shows presented here, other than to say to some of them that I like them - which, as has been pointed out, isn't a lot of help. I also don't have much photographic experience either, other than to take snapshots with a recently acquired instant type digital camera. So I am not in a position to comment on other people's efforts.

I have to say, though, that, considering the wonderful audio features that have recently been introduced, I am somewhat disappointed in the audio accompaniament to many presentations. Its all very well to use one piece of music with a slideshow that concentrates on one place or event - monothematic, one might call it, but I would like to have a variety of sound files in a more varied - multithematic - show.

David P

[Ken Cox]

As someone who has only fairly recently discovered the joys of making slideshows with this software, having never made slideshows at all before, I don't feel particularly qualified to give constructive criticism on shows presented here, other than to say to some of them that I like them - which, as has been pointed out, isn't a lot of help. I also don't have much photographic experience either, other than to take snapshots with a recently acquired instant type digital camera. So I am not in a position to comment on other people's efforts.

I have to say, though, that, considering the wonderful audio features that have recently been introduced, I am somewhat disappointed in the audio accompaniament to many presentations. Its all very well to use one piece of music with a slideshow that concentrates on one place or event - monothematic, one might call it, but I would like to have a variety of sound files in a more varied - multithematic - show.

David P

DAVID

"variety of sound files"

THEY ARE LIMITED by the licensing dept of music - in other words if youi dont have a license for certain music files you must use royalty free music

use the search feature - Maureen Albright and others have explained the problem many times

ken

[deskjet1uk]

Well, this is an interesting topic. As the low guy on the food chain here, I do have some thoughts on this. Judges! Take what you want from their comments and disregard the rest. I've sat in our club and laughed at some of the comments eminating from the great and good.

However in this forum I find the advice and critique given invaluable. I cite my own Auschwitz show which the forum members spent some considerable time helping me get the best I could out of.

As for comments. Well I find it disappointing when I see a show with 200 views and 3 comments and they only say nice work or well done. Have the viewers really nothing to say, good or critical?

I welcome critique be it good or scathing. It makes me work harder, use my imagination more and most importantly it helps me learn. The OP said In most cases, there isn't much positive to say

thats pretty damning of the standard of shows here isnt it? If that is indeed the case, we have a catch22 situation. No-one will comment on the shows cause mostly they're rubbish, but we cant learn how to improve cause no-one tells us whats wrong!!! result...you may as well shut this forum now, since it apparently serves no usefull purpose. Which would then leave people like me with no possibility of improving since there is nowhere else to seek advice. Consequence... we all end up using Proshow!!!!!!

I agree entirely with the post from Trailertrash, I welcome critique, good or bad but as Peter rightly states it does take time to view posts, download, view and reply and I am grateful for all the time taken.

Barry.

As stated above, I welcome good or bad, I'm thick skinned and I will learn. I take your recent topic on 'Exposure' as an example which I found to be brilliant, I would never have been able to write about something like that. I do not have the experience so it is just fantastic that someone like me is able to learn from your experience, we should all be in debt to all of you more experienced members for helping us.

Ralph

[trailertrash]

Just to add another tangent to this. I was discussing this topic with a camera club friend and he said that the reason he doesnt comment on forum posts of pictures is that someone further down will likely rubbish his comments. Now I've seen posts on many a forum where the poster used 500 words where 50 would have done. They're simply trying to baffle everyone or bore us to death, and give an inflated impression of their knowledge. Are we to take comments like

poster 1:I like the sunset in this shot or I like the animation in this sequence

poster 2: [further down] The sunset is rubbish

or it would have been better without the animation.

Thats what puts people off engaging in the forums principal objective....discussion. Forum members must realise we all have an opinion whether we agree with it or not. To quote a great American Civil War Commander " We all have value ".

Please remember that without discussion forums die. I dont put my work up here for marks out of ten.I put it up for ...yes discussion, debate and to learn.

Tell me where you think it could be improved and once I have all the opinions ...I'll decide where to go with it.

[Barry Beckham]

There are always many ways to look at any subject. On the one hand its nice to have someone comment on your slide show or pictures knowing that they themselves are an accomplished photographer or AV enthusiast. However, my grandmother has never driven a car in her life, but she can spot when one is being driven badly, so despite my earlier comments to seek out who you want to make comment, everyone does have a view and you don't need to be an expert carpenter to know the guy who hung your front door did a rubbish job.

This is about the politest forum I have ever seen and there is no history of nasty comments from what I can see, but then again most of them are pretty bland one liners. Here is the problem

I say something about a sequence that maybe through my own poor English I don't explain fully, or the author finds a slant on what I said a million miles from what was intended.

Do they reply and ask for clarification, no, they make an assumption that the comment was a deliberate nasty one and reply accordingly.

I am distraught that my words have not been understood and try to explain, but its too late, we are past the point where peace talks can break out and there is the classic reason why you don't see comments on slide shows.

There is no point pulling punches here in this post as no individual sequence is being discussed, we all want a favourable reply to what we post and if we have spent a week on a slide show and it is not seen in the same way we see it, it is a huge disapopointment no matter what your skill level or experience. What is the point of taking offense because one person does not feel your slide show is the masterpiece you do. Your never going to please all of the people all of the time and although we may try hard we can't produce a masterpiece every time either.

An example is the many slide shows I now never play or show at my demos, why, because I thought they were really good when in the full glow of the creative process, but months and years later I realise they are OK, but not great.

[trailertrash]

But Barry, they're allowed to be OK but not great. They dont have to be. On this forum, if you ask a specific question, you will get a very detailed answer on how to use the software. Thats great.

That teaches me. However if a flaw is percieved in a sequence I put up, I'm sorry to say but I expect the same. Tell me whats wrong and how to fix it. So many times I've put pictures up on photography forums to be told this is wrong or that is wrong. Fine, I'm there to learn, but also tell me how to fix it. Thats what I need. We all seek perfection, but I know my capabilities. I am however capable of pushing myself on if I know how its done. Now I'm as guilty as the rest in giving ' good work ' comments simply because I dont have the expertise to give detailed comments.

BTW if I could produce work you consider OK but not great I'd be a very happy man.

Andrew

[fh1805]

...Tell me whats wrong and how to fix it...

Andrew,

That's a wonderfully brief definition of constructive criticism.

regards,

Peter

[fh1805]

...the many slide shows I now never play or show at my demos, why, because I thought they were really good when in the full glow of the creative process, but months and years later I realise they are OK, but not great...

Barry,

You, too, eh?

I'm finding that any show made more than about three years ago is now no longer as acceptable as it was. The reason, for me, is that my skills have improved in all areas. Looking at each old sequence critically I can see that I would now:

- compose and expose the image better in camera

- use the features of Lightroom and Photoshop to achieve a better final image

- use PTE features in a more subtle way to achieve a sequence free of gimmicky animations and transitions

- put greater variety into the soundtrack (not just music and voice-over but sound effects as well)

In short, as my skills rise so, I believe, do my standards. (I certainly hope that is the case!). But there is one aspect of my work that I still struggle to overcome: divorcing my "cherished memory" of each image from the actual image, and assessing that image solely on its technical and artistic merits. I know I have to be a harsh critic of my own work - but it isn't easy to do that.

regards,

Peter

[Barry Beckham]

Peter

Yes, the proof for me was some years ago (pre digital) when I went into the loft to do some plumbing and had to move stuff around and found some of my old B&W images. Oh my god. at the time I made them I thought they were pretty good, but finding them some years on was a bit of a shock. I had obviously moved on a fair bit and its only when you see it displayed to you in that way that you appreciate your progress.

I agree, its not easy to be self critical, but I have always felt your sucess is not always based on what you show, but on what you decide not to show.

Andrew

But Barry, they're allowed to be OK but not great.

I understand what your saying, but too many people are far too quick to settle for OK in my view, with a little more effort perhaps a lot better than OK is within their reach. I am often amazed at how quick some authors churn out their slide shows.

It doesn't alter the fact that some will say they welcome comment, when they only really want positive comments. Its why I rarely comment now, but I watch quite a few sequences. I like to be entertained and we all look for inspiration from others, but to do a real constructive criticim is risky.

I recall watching a quite nice slide show once, but felt it lost a lot of impact because the lighting and shadows were really harsh. I wondered if the author was aware of the shadow and highlight control in Photoshop, because I knew from my demos it doesn't get used much. Well, you would have thought I had insulted the persons mother and I was firmly put in my place and told that the author wanted the images just as they saw them. The high contrast reflected that part of the world. One or two other members joined in agreeing with the author, so I think I backed away with my tail between my legs.

However, the facts are, that what the author captured was not what they saw at the time and they were all wrong. My mistake was assuming that posting a slide show automatically invited comment, especially from an enthusiasts forum like this.

[Nikonos]

Peter

Yes, the proof for me was some years ago (pre digital) when I went into the loft to do some plumbing and had to move stuff around and found some of my old B&W images. Oh my god. at the time I made them I thought they were pretty good, but finding them some years on was a bit of a shock. I had obviously moved on a fair bit and its only when you see it displayed to you in that way that you appreciate your progress.

I agree, its not easy to be self critical, but I have always felt your sucess is not always based on what you show, but on what you decide not to show.

Andrew

But Barry, they're allowed to be OK but not great.

I understand what your saying, but too many people are far too quick to settle for OK in my view, with a little more effort perhaps a lot better than OK is within their reach. I am often amazed at how quick some authors churn out their slide shows.

It doesn't alter the fact that some will say they welcome comment, when they only really want positive comments. Its why I rarely comment now, but I watch quite a few sequences. I like to be entertained and we all look for inspiration from others, but to do a real constructive criticim is risky.

I recall watching a quite nice slide show once, but felt it lost a lot of impact because the lighting and shadows were really harsh. I wondered if the author was aware of the shadow and highlight control in Photoshop, because I knew from my demos it doesn't get used much. Well, you would have thought I had insulted the persons mother and I was firmly put in my place and told that the author wanted the images just as they saw them. The high contrast reflected that part of the world. One or two other members joined in agreeing with the author, so I think I backed away with my tail between my legs.

However, the facts are, that what the author captured was not what they saw at the time and they were all wrong. My mistake was assuming that posting a slide show automatically invited comment, especially from an enthusiasts forum like this.

Hi Barry

I agree with you absolutely in what you say about "ok" sequences. It takes me am age to produce a show that I am happy with. Far more time is spent in Photoshop than PtoE refining each image until I am happy that an image is technically good enough to be included in the overall sequence. Perhaps I am being over fussy, but I find that I am always more impressed by any sequence that shows really good photography than any amount of clever transitions. To me (and others may disagree), it is the photography that is paramount.

Malcolm

[fh1805]

...To me (and others may disagree), it is the photography that is paramount...

Malcolm,

A qualified agreement from me! For the sort of sequences that feature most often on this forum (and elsewhere), I agree. The photography is what is being showcased; and so the images must be of the highest quality. But for a documentary sequence (for example my recent posting: "The Alum Coast") where some of the imagery is of a historical nature, one has to take whatever one can find that illustrates the point being made. In such sequences it is the story that is paramount. Everything else: images, music, voice-over, sound, use of visual effects all have to be subservient to the need to move the story-telling along in a pleasing and effective manner.

How many TV documentaries comprise nothing but stunningly beautiful imagery? I don't think I've seen even one that did. They have to use a mix of the stunning and the merely OK. Unfortunately there is a growing trend in TV documentaries to use weird camera angles, moving the camera whilst filming and all sorts of other gimmicks that, to me, detracts and distracts from the story-telling. This is analogous to the inappropriate use of fancy transitions and animations in AV sequences. These fancy effects do have a role to play: in the right place, at the right time, for the right reason. But that good old rule "Keep it simple" still represents very sound advice.

regards,

Peter