Help: Best video file out of PTE project

[orizaba]

Dear Forum Fellows,

1. As far as I can see, this "PTE" Forum is the one people pay greater attention. The "Video Output Forum" seams the poor parent people don't care of... Look to last new Topic post by Powelly, dated Jan 09, zero replies! And this is a subject that I am now urging some kind of help, that's why I am posting here, in the PTE Forum, where replies use to be fast and very helpfull!

2. Eventual replies to Powelly question could help me as well, nobody knows, but my particular point is as follows:

3. Finishing my PTE projects, I mainly have in mind NOT to make EXE files to be seen on computers, but to burn DVDs instead, to offer to my family members and friends. This is what I made in the past, using the PTE built HD MP4 (H.264) file with which I burn DVDs by means of adequate software. I use to make such MP4 files using the BEST QUALITY parameters (video bitrate 16000 kbps, 2 pass) and results are good considering it is a DVD (720x576 resolution).

4. However, I am now entering the HD world and I want to burn BLU-RAY discs. I have already made some with good results, using same MP4 files with same parameters (even reaching the MAXIMUM PTE video bitrate AVAILABLE which is 24000 kbps). As I said, results are not so bad, they are good, but I AM SURE "RESULTS/IMAGE QUALITY" CAN BE MUCH BETTER.

5. The point is that maximum video bitrate 24000 kbps is not enough to assure PERFECT and SMOOTH image in cases like faster pans or sudden slide changes, mainly when "second" slide is moving faster (pan with zoom, for example). I already verified lots of such situations and here results are really bad, image flickers (stop and go).

6. It's not a surprise to verify such errors when seen on computer (it depends of computer performance and mine is not a top one, not so bad anyhow...) but it is really a surprise to see such errors in final BLU-RAY disc. BLU-RAY "runs" video bitrate till a maximum 40000 kbps, so, THE PROBLEM IS IN THE ORIGINAL FILE (the MP4 made at 24000 kbps).

7. In case I am thinking well, it seems to me that I must FIND A BETTER ORIGINAL FILE to be used to burn a BLU-RAY disc.

8. So, which is the very best quality file I can make of my PTE project, no matter the size, no matter the time it takes to build. Which file, which parameters?

9. I already tried to make (in PTE) an AVI custom file 1920x1080 using video codec "x264vfw" (as indicated in Output Video Forum), which seems to create a virtual AVI file (!) but I must say I am completely lost! When configuring this codec parameters I want to use multiple pass option, but how?

I tried to make a first pass at 30000 kbps. OK, file is created... at 1536 kbps!!! How is that? Then what? How to make second pass at 35000 kbps, for example? And second/final pass is still a virtual one? How to use in NERO VISION 10 which is my software to burn BLU-RAY discs? It doesn't accept virtual things, only real MP4, AVI, etc..

10. Please, could someone help me (and Powelly...!) to solve this IMPORTANT problem? After all, I only want to make a BLU-RAY with SAME QUALITY as I get in my computer when I preview PTE project, WITHOUT own errors of my computer. Is this possible? I hope so, as PTE own VERY HIGH IMAGE QUALITY can not be lost when changed to BLU-RAY discs, it would be a very big damage.

11. For sure this post will be moved to Video Output Forum, no problem, but I hope that in the meantime I can get my help (as well as Powelly...)

Thanks in advance,

Jose

[coopernatural]

Jose,

Its’ shameful that you have been ignored.Neither a knowledgeable moderator, or even Igor, have attempted to answer to your question.

Maybe you have highlighted an Achillies Heel in PTE/Videobuilder.

That no amount of Bitrate/codec tweaking will bring you exe quality Bluray discs. The settings are just a smokescreen.

PTE exe file quality trounces Proshow etc., but is it lacking with regards to MP4/AVI output?

AVCHD/Bluray disc burning is common enough on other Slideshow software now (Even free ones).

As a feature set, Videobuilder is sadly lacking this capability. Is it because it is lacking?

With the exception of new PTE customers, and wrong as it may seem, it is those subscribing to Videobuilder who are sponsoring PTE.

Perhaps I am wrong here and there is a way to burn a Bluray disc that is as good as the exe file.

I will be pleased if I am wrong,but regardless, your question should be answered.

Davy

[potwnc]

I will answer these questions - and those from the related post on the Video output board - in the next 1-2 days.

Bottom line is yes PTE can produce excellent, professional quality BDs.

[orizaba]

Jose,

Its’ shameful that you have been ignored.Neither a knowledgeable moderator, or even Igor, have attempted to answer to your question.

Maybe you have highlighted an Achillies Heel in PTE/Videobuilder.

That no amount of Bitrate/codec tweaking will bring you exe quality Bluray discs. The settings are just a smokescreen.

PTE exe file quality trounces Proshow etc., but is it lacking with regards to MP4/AVI output?

AVCHD/Bluray disc burning is common enough on other Slideshow software now (Even free ones).

As a feature set, Videobuilder is sadly lacking this capability. Is it because it is lacking?

With the exception of new PTE customers, and wrong as it may seem, it is those subscribing to Videobuilder who are sponsoring PTE.

Perhaps I am wrong here and there is a way to burn a Bluray disc that is as good as the exe file.

I will be pleased if I am wrong,but regardless, your question should be answered.

Davy

Hi, Davy,

Thanks for your "support"!

This is first time I am thinking on this subject because it's first time I really care about QUALITY of final Blu-ray disc.

So, I never thought about PTE VideoBuilder performance as it was good enough for files intended to DVD burning process.

However, I would be very much astonished in case Igor (and his PTE team) would accept such TREMENDOUS FAULT!

Igor is always working to achieve maximum quality and performance of PTE software, which indeed he gets with a very big success.

After this, when we want to burn a Blu-ray disc... everything fails and quality is lost.

Not possible!

On the other hand, nobody else replied to my post (except you) which makes me think that nobody else, till the present, missed such Blu-ray high quality (IMPOSSIBLE!), or that nobody else knows what to say (IMPOSSIBLE!).

It's a strange situation...

I know that Igor himself follows this Forum, so I think that if he wants he can give some kind of support. Let us wait.

In the meantime, I uploaded my first slideshow project, the one I want to burn in Blu-ray disc.

In case you want to see it, it will be easy to detect where missing video bitrate affects Blu-ray disc quality, because such zones are the same where computer performance is most required, sometimes failing to give a smooth image movement.

As I said, let us wait.

Regards,

Jose

[orizaba]

I will answer these questions - and those from the related post on the Video output board - in the next 1-2 days.

Bottom line is yes PTE can produce excellent, professional quality BDs.

Hi,

Thanks God!

Thanks for your lines.

I was just posting to Davy and I only saw your lines after that. Sorry.

PTE can produce excellent, professional quality BDs? I already made my day!!!

I only need to know how!

Waiting for your kind support and thanking in advance,

Jose

[coopernatural]

Jose,

We got you noticed, which is something in itself.

I look forward to being proved wrong.

Whether success is 100% or not, we will see. It may be that success is conditional.

Thanks to Potwnc for taking up your plight.

Davy

[potwnc]

In the meantime, I uploaded my first slideshow project, the one I want to burn in Blu-ray disc.

Jose,

Can you send me the url from where I can download your project?

[orizaba]

Please go to "SlideShows created with PTE", it's there (from "orizaba"), ok?

[potwnc]

Jose,

I just watched your slideshow.

First I must say congratulations. This is one of the best and most creative slideshows I have ever seen using PTE.

When you wrote "I uploaded my first slideshow project" I thought that you had uploaded your PTE project - all the files used to create it - in a .zip file. With your permission if you will upload the project itself (and send me a private e-mail so I can download it) I can show you how to create a 1920x1080 video file that will produce a BD of equal quality - and use this as a case study for other PTE users on how to do that.

My initial comments are below and they are based on watching it only once - I will need to watch it many times to give you more detailed comments. Please understand that these comments are not about your artistic ability - they are only comments about the technical nature of video itself.

Your slideshow works very well as a PTE .exe file because PTE can take full advantage of the refresh rate of the computer screen when it produces a .exe file. So anyone watching it will see 50 (in Europe for example) or 60 (in North America for example) (or even 120 with very new PC monitors and computer video cards) progressive frames per second. But video on Blu-ray disc cannot produce this same quality. This is not a limitation of PTE - it is a limitation of video technology. So you must produce your slideshow within the limitations of current video technology.

One example is the speed of your zooms and pans. For video, zooms and pans work well at very fast speeds and at very slow speeds - but some of your zooms and pans are not fast enough or slow enough to work well for video. This is not a limitation of PTE - it is a limitation of video. The reason why you don't "see" the same limitation with DVD quality video is because it is much easier to see this limitation with HD quality video.

A second example is the quality of your photographs. Many of them are "grainy" or low-resolution images (I think some of them are very old photographs and you have tried to resize them to 1920x1080?). Then you zoom into very small areas of these images. When you do this the original quality of each video frame is simply not good enough to expect HD quality video.

A third example is that when you zoom into small areas of these low-quality photographs you will see "moiré patterns" in the video because the real resolution of the images you are using is smaller than your intended 1920x1080 video output. The video rendering must fill the missing information which produces these "moiré patterns" - again this is a limitation of video not PTE.

If you like, please upload your PTE project and also upload the 1920x1080 video you have created and send me a private e-mail so I can help you more with your project.

Ray

[orizaba]

Jose,

I just watched your slideshow.

First I must say congratulations. This is one of the best and most creative slideshows I have ever seen using PTE.

When you wrote "I uploaded my first slideshow project" I thought that you had uploaded your PTE project - all the files used to create it - in a .zip file. With your permission if you will upload the project itself (and send me a private e-mail so I can download it) I can show you how to create a 1920x1080 video file that will produce a BD of equal quality - and use this as a case study for other PTE users on how to do that.

My initial comments are below and they are based on watching it only once - I will need to watch it many times to give you more detailed comments. Please understand that these comments are not about your artistic ability - they are only comments about the technical nature of video itself.

Your slideshow works very well as a PTE .exe file because PTE can take full advantage of the refresh rate of the computer screen when it produces a .exe file. So anyone watching it will see 50 (in Europe for example) or 60 (in North America for example) (or even 120 with very new PC monitors and computer video cards) progressive frames per second. But video on Blu-ray disc cannot produce this same quality. This is not a limitation of PTE - it is a limitation of video technology. So you must produce your slideshow within the limitations of current video technology.

One example is the speed of your zooms and pans. For video, zooms and pans work well at very fast speeds and at very slow speeds - but some of your zooms and pans are not fast enough or slow enough to work well for video. This is not a limitation of PTE - it is a limitation of video. The reason why you don't "see" the same limitation with DVD quality video is because it is much easier to see this limitation with HD quality video.

A second example is the quality of your photographs. Many of them are "grainy" or low-resolution images (I think some of them are very old photographs and you have tried to resize them to 1920x1080?). Then you zoom into very small areas of these images. When you do this the original quality of each video frame is simply not good enough to expect HD quality video.

A third example is that when you zoom into small areas of these low-quality photographs you will see "moiré patterns" in the video because the real resolution of the images you are using is smaller than your intended 1920x1080 video output. The video rendering must fill the missing information which produces these "moiré patterns" - again this is a limitation of video not PTE.

If you like, please upload your PTE project and also upload the 1920x1080 video you have created and send me a private e-mail so I can help you more with your project.

Ray

Hi Ray,

Thanks very much for your nice words and for all the trouble you are having with this problem concerning a professional quality BD out of a PTE project.

Reading your first comments, I underline:

I can show you how to create a 1920x1080 video file that will produce a BD of equal quality - and use this as a case study for other PTE users on how to do that.

and

But video on Blu-ray disc cannot produce this same quality. This is not a limitation of PTE - it is a limitation of video technology. So you must produce your slideshow within the limitations of current video technology.

Considering both above statements, I would say that your "magic" is to produce/create a 1920x1080 video file (from a PTE project) with which we can burn a BD disc of equal equality of PTE.exe itself. Is it? That's what I want.

For sure, this "magic" will take place out of PTE VideoBuilder, as this one is not capable by itself. So, how to?

On the other hand, I am confused because all of your other comments/examples concerning "zoom/pan speed", "grainy old resized photos afecting HD quality" and "moiré patterns also affecting HD quality", I am well aware of such quality loss but I think (I am not quite sure) that these points have nothing to do with my problem which is "image trembling"/"stop&go image"/"not a continuous and smooth movement" that BD disc shows.

I would call your attention for 3 clips where BD failing is clearly noticed:

02:53,161 - lasting 2,860 sec - Start of music, steam engine departing

02:56,021 - lasting 2,860 sec - Wheels of steam engine

03:31,281 - lasting 5,320 sec - Electricity pilar passing by

In PTE.exe these clips show 100% pefect in terms of a clear and not trembled image, movements are 100% uniform and continuous. The very small characters on the wheels can be read while wheels are moving. The electricity pilar is "focused" and doesn't tremble while it passes by. This does not happen at all in BD.

Those are the problems I really have.

Ok, may be you can give me the solution.

Sure, I will send you everything you need to study the case, it will be my pleasure, but, please, just let me know exactly what you want.

Please confirm: a sole folder with all JPEG (some BMP) used in the show, including masks, etc., as well as the used mp3 file, and also the PTE project file itself (the one we click to open the project). Is it? Or something else? This folder is 675 MB and I hope everything is there.

I can upload to MediaFire and e-mail you respective (private) download link.

Please, kindly let me have your e-mail address.

Thanks for all and best regards,

Jose

[stardealer]

Hi Jose,

as someone wrote before. Smooth movement needs a high framerate (50/60Hz). You mentioned only Bitrate in your posts.

To reach the desired output quality, please change the parameters when creating MP4 to 1920x1080 60p

This should give you better results.

Regards,

Frank

P.S.: Maybe you should delete your mail-adress in your previous post to avoid getting spam-mailed in the future. Instead of this, you can use BoardMail function in user profile

[orizaba]

Hi Jose,

as someone wrote before. Smooth movement needs a high framerate (50/60Hz). You mentioned only Bitrate in your posts.

To reach the desired output quality, please change the parameters when creating MP4 to 1920x1080 60p

This should give you better results.

Regards,

Frank

P.S.: Maybe you should delete your mail-adress in your previous post to avoid getting spam-mailed in the future. Instead of this, you can use BoardMail function in user profile

Hi Frank,

You are right. How to delete it?

I will comment framerate later, ok?

Thanks,

Jose

Sorry Frank, I already found the way to delete it and save, and thanks for your advice.

I don't mind at all Forum members know my private email address, but you are right, problem is spam.

Concerning framerate, I can let you know that one of my tests when trying to find better solutions of creating a better video file out of my PTE project, was:

MP4 (H.264)

1920x1080 at 50 fps

2 pass at 10000 kbps

Etc..

Final BD disc was not enough good: images trembling, etc., the usual.

I know that I used 10000 kbps instead of maximum available 24000 kbps or even my "usual" 16000 kbps.

Do you think that 50 fps at 24000 kbps solves the problem? I can try today.

(50 fps and not 60 fps because here we use PAL system)

Another detail: I use to analyse my MP4 files with GSPOT.

Among other values it shows the so-called "Frame Quality" which formula is

Video bitrate (bits/sec) / (H resolution * V resolution * Frame rate)

10000000 / (1920 * 1080 * 50) = 0,0965 (a very, very low frame quality)

Obviously, if I make it at 25 fps (PAL) Frame Quality value duplicates (= 0,1930)

If I make it at 24000 kbps and 50 fps, Frame Quality would be 0,2316

Ok. I think that PTE Video Builder should allow some 40000 kbps in order to allow a much better Frame Quality (0,386 at 50 fps or 0,772 at 25 fps). Because Frame Quality has to do with each image quality. In fact, we can "smooth" the movements (50 fps) but we loose image quality.

What do you think on this?

Thanks and regards,

Jose

[stardealer]

Hi Jose,

by the way, PAL is also the standard here in germany, but I always use 30p or 60p, because they are better supported by playback hardware. Some players will resample 50p material to 60p for output and therefore create a pattern like (in framenumbers) 1 2 3 4 5 5 6 7 8 9 10 10 which results in subtle stutters and not so smooth animations.

Some things to clarify:

If you choose a bitrate of 10000, then the creation process tries to produce a file which has a average bitrate of around 10000.

For example: when you display one image for 5 seconds without moving or fade-in/out the bitrate is maybe 40000 for 0.5-1 second and then nearly 0 (+music) for the following 4-4.5 seconds, resulting in a medium bitrate of ( 40000x1 + 200x4 ) / 5 seconds = 8160 per second. Depending on how much animation, image change frequency etc. the total bitrate sometimes may be well below the entered number.

When you display the properties of the MP4-file you can see on the Detail-Tab the average bitrate of the file.

When you playback this file the actual bitrate will change every second. E.g. I have a MP4 file with medium bitrate of 2600. In playback I see bitrates changing between 200 and 9600.

And here's the problem. Every Hard- and Software for playback is limited. With playback on my computer with media player VLC I saw problems with a slideshow-MP4 which I created with 1920x1080 60p 100%-Quality resulting in a average bitrate of 11500. The bitrate reached more than 40000 kb/s in some scenes and theses scenes weren't displayed correctly. My BD-Player when playing back from USB-Stick also reached it's limit with this show.

Computer and BD-Player started to stutter in animations or stops for half a second or in a complete mess on the screen until the bitrate is low enough to process.

Would you be so kind to create one MP 4 with 1920x1080, 60p, and instead of 2Pass please choose pass quality 80%. Hopefully this solves the main issue with trembling animations.

Regards,

Frank

P.S.: What is the playback system you use. Is it computer or BD-Player feeded by Disc/USB or something else?

[potwnc]

Jose,

I just sent you a message via the forum, including my e-mail address.

I will answer your questions once I have your project files.

[orizaba]

Hi Jose,

by the way, PAL is also the standard here in germany, but I always use 30p or 60p, because they are better supported by playback hardware. Some players will resample 50p material to 60p for output and therefore create a pattern like (in framenumbers) 1 2 3 4 5 5 6 7 8 9 10 10 which results in subtle stutters and not so smooth animations.

Some things to clarify:

If you choose a bitrate of 10000, then the creation process tries to produce a file which has a average bitrate of around 10000.

For example: when you display one image for 5 seconds without moving or fade-in/out the bitrate is maybe 40000 for 0.5-1 second and then nearly 0 (+music) for the following 4-4.5 seconds, resulting in a medium bitrate of ( 40000x1 + 200x4 ) / 5 seconds = 8160 per second. Depending on how much animation, image change frequency etc. the total bitrate sometimes may be well below the entered number.

When you display the properties of the MP4-file you can see on the Detail-Tab the average bitrate of the file.

When you playback this file the actual bitrate will change every second. E.g. I have a MP4 file with medium bitrate of 2600. In playback I see bitrates changing between 200 and 9600.

And here's the problem. Every Hard- and Software for playback is limited. With playback on my computer with media player VLC I saw problems with a slideshow-MP4 which I created with 1920x1080 60p 100%-Quality resulting in a average bitrate of 11500. The bitrate reached more than 40000 kb/s in some scenes and theses scenes weren't displayed correctly. My BD-Player when playing back from USB-Stick also reached it's limit with this show.

Computer and BD-Player started to stutter in animations or stops for half a second or in a complete mess on the screen until the bitrate is low enough to process.

Would you be so kind to create one MP 4 with 1920x1080, 60p, and instead of 2Pass please choose pass quality 80%. Hopefully this solves the main issue with trembling animations.

Regards,

Frank

P.S.: What is the playback system you use. Is it computer or BD-Player feeded by Disc/USB or something else?

Hi Frank,

Thanks so much for all your detailed explanations and sugestions.

1. My playback system is a home BD-Player PHILIPS BDP 7300 (BD discs).

I see such BD movies in my plasma monitor SONY PFM-42 B1E (dated 2001, first SONY home plasma in the world!) and this monitor is prepared to accept HDTV signal from any BD player.

And it really does!

I can see "Mama Mia" BD, for example, and it shows at 1080/60i.

My home made BD discs show at 1080/50i.

No BDs at all show at 50p or 60p.

The plasma owner's manual itself says that this plasma only show interlaced image, not progressive.

So, my first point is: has this fact something to do with my problem? Which is "trembling images" in case of higher video bitrates?

And Manual says something else that may be important for our discussion, and only now I am paying attention to it:

- INTERNAL HIGH-PERFORMANCE SCAN CONVERTER: The monitor has a high performance scan converter. Using a unique algorithm, the monitor processes signals in a wide range of formats - Video, HDTV, PC, etc..

- INPUT 1 CONNECTOR: RGB/YUV (D-sub 15-pin) connects to the RGB signal or component (YUV) signal output of a computer or a piece of video equipment.

In fact, I have my PHILIPS BD player connected by means of such INPUT 1, RGB connection.

Something else:

This plasma monitor is 42". However, resolution is 1024 x 1024 dots, beeing horizontal pitch 0,90 mm, and vertical pitch 0,51 mm.

So, it is not a 1920x1080 resolution monitor, and I think that such INTERNAL HIGH-PERFORMANCE SCAN CONVERTER is to convert 1920x1080 image into the available 1024x1024.

That's why I had to "manipulate" (on the remote control) the horizontal expansion in order to get a non-distorted image. I made this from the start and I always get a non-distorted image when I play any BD disc (commercial or mine).

In conclusion, I can say that I have not (yet...!) a "true" HDTV plasma TV set, but when I will have one I want my actual BD discs play at maximum possible quality.

And again: do you think that this CONVERSION can be the cause of my trembling images?

2. You sugest me to make a MP4 file, 1920x1080, 60p, 1-pass at 80% quality.

I will try, of course, but I comment from now:

- 1-pass gives lower image quality than 2-pass

- quality 80% gives lower quality than 100%

So, may be I can get a "non-trembling" image, but I will get, for sure, an image of lower quality.

And this lower quality is what I want to avoid by all means!

After all, do you mean that it will be impossible at all to get maximum possible quality without trembling?

Please, kindly comment situation of my plasma, ok?

Thanks once more and regards,

Jose

[stardealer]

Hi Jose,

To 1.:

Commercial BD typically is encoded in 24p. When you see 1080/60i it has gone through a conversion process already (in the BD-Player or in the TV-Scaler) with a 3:2 Pulldown. Source frames are converted to output frames in the following way: Every frame is doubled and then for every second source frame a third duplicate is generated which results in a structure like 1 1 2 2 2 3 3 4 4 4 5 5 6 6 6.... (24 + 24 + 12 = 60). With your own 1080/50i the source with 50 progressive frames is converted to 50 interlaced frames.

The conversion to interlaced may be dependent on the connection you choose because RGB connection is typically interlaced (YUV is progressive) and you wrote that you have used then RGB output from your BD-Player. Maybe you can find a menu entry in your BD-Player to force the output connection to deliver a progressiv signal.

When a plasma receives interlaced signals (only every second line) the internal scaler fills the missing lines of the delivered half-frame with interpolated information of last and coming half-frame mixed with the actual half-frame to create a full-frame. Plasma and LCD can only display full frames. Therefore it is much better to feed Plasma with a progressiv signal. The conversion of interlaced signals can result in artifacts and fringes, you can see this when watching a TV channel with a scrolling text bar (e.g. news channel with stock information)

To 2.:

My suggestion is only a starting point to check whether the effect of trembling images can be reduced or eliminated in your configuration. 80% quality is choosen to rule out possible bitratelimitation of presentation configuration. If first point is solved, we can move on from there. Please check also output possibilities of your BD-Player and compare playback of MP4 on your computer and TV.

You want to avoid any degrade in image quality. In my opinion you should only focus on "recognizable loss of picture quality". If it is measurable, yes then it is there, but if you don't recognize it -> It doesn't matter.

Further on:

TV and cinema technology with 24p (or upscaled to 50/60i) where not designed for panning actions. You can see this e.g. in nature films when panning across the landscape is done or in action movies especially when you concentrate on the moving background and not on the subject in focus. Sharpness has gone away. Every professional film maker knows this and tries to avoid it when possible.

Slideshow with panning and moving main objects in front of a static background are typical problem cases. Therefore we need a high framerate and a progressive signal to bring sharpness back to live and smoothness to the viewer.

Example: Image moving from out of the screen to full display in 5 seconds. 5 seconds with 50i = 250 half-frames. 1920 pixel width / 250 half-frames = 7.6 pixel/frame which means from half-frame to half-frame one pixel of our source image is moved approximately 8 pixels across the screen. The scaler has to interpolate the missing lines from images which are separated by 8 pixels each -> Can't be tack sharp, but should be smooth enough.

Same with 30p: 5 x 30 = 150 full-frames. 1920 / 150 = 12.8 pixel difference per full-frame -> Can't be that smooth

Same with 60p: 5 x 60 = 300 full-frames. 1920 / 300 = 6.4 pixel difference per full frame -> Sharp and smooth.

This is the input signal and then your plasma internal engine scales that down to 1024 columns. So you can see that much conversion is done in this process, with interlaced more, with progressiv less.

We are caught in the trap of complex environments. It will be difficult to find out whether PTE, BD-Player, TV, connection between BD-Player and TV or any combination of them causes the undesired effects.

Regards,

Frank

[stardealer]

Hi Jose,

I missed one point in your post:

"The plasma owner's manual itself says that this plasma only show interlaced image, not progressive"

So your plasma won't profit from a MP4 with 60p. No need to regenerate the MP4 with the mentioned parameters.

When you play the 1080/50p MP4 on your PC, can you see the same trembling?

With these technical limitations it comes down to the point potwnc mentioned "For video, zooms and pans work well at very fast speeds and at very slow speeds - but some of your zooms and pans are not fast enough or slow enough to work well for video." It has to do with how our brains can recognize movement within a fix framerate.

Regards,

Frank

[orizaba]

Hi Jose,

I missed one point in your post:

"The plasma owner's manual itself says that this plasma only show interlaced image, not progressive"

So your plasma won't profit from a MP4 with 60p. No need to regenerate the MP4 with the mentioned parameters.

When you play the 1080/50p MP4 on your PC, can you see the same trembling?

With these technical limitations it comes down to the point potwnc mentioned "For video, zooms and pans work well at very fast speeds and at very slow speeds - but some of your zooms and pans are not fast enough or slow enough to work well for video." It has to do with how our brains can recognize movement within a fix framerate.

Regards,

Frank

Hi Frank,

It's amazing the way you gave all explanations in your former post!

I must say that I understood every word and I thank you for that because I always like (need...) to know how things happen, and in fact I was very far away from all this process.

Thanks again for your time and care.

I must now "process" all this information in my own mind, and also wait for potwnc sugestions in order to decide what to do next.

In this meantime, may be I passed a wrong information to you:

"The plasma owner's manual itself says that this plasma only show interlaced image, not progressive"

In fact, this is not quite true!

I attache the Owner's Manual page where you can see that for HDTV 480, 575 and 720 lines, 50p and 60p appear.

Not for HDTV 1080 lines, where only 50i and 60i appear, which is our case.

So, this monitor is able to "process" progressive frames... but not at 1080 lines, as I think I can conclude.

Does this change something?

I will come back to you as soon as I have some progress.

Thanks again for your trouble.

Best regards,

Jose

[stardealer]

Hi Jose,

then take the chance by creating a 1280x720 60p 100% quality MP4 and try to setup your BD-Player that it delivers 720/60p to your TV.

By that you can see whether it helps in trembling animations and qualify how much you miss in the image-quality sector.

As you can see, when involving many parts there is always a bottleneck. Something like "best quality" must be defined by taking all limiting aspects into account, it doesn't exist as a absolute figure. You need to balance sharpness, smothness, compatibility and so on to get the best overall viewing pleasure for your audience.

To get best quality you should also use the latest version (6.5.7) of PTE because of "Fixed problem (5.6.0 to 6.5.5) with loss of details in lights and shadows in created H.264 video file (video file for PC & Mac, YouTube, Facebook, iPhone, iPad)"

Regards,

Frank

[potwnc]

Hi Ray,

I would call your attention for 3 clips where BD failing is clearly noticed:

02:53,161 - lasting 2,860 sec - Start of music, steam engine departing

02:56,021 - lasting 2,860 sec - Wheels of steam engine

03:31,281 - lasting 5,320 sec - Electricity pilar passing by

Thanks for all and best regards,

Jose

Jose,

Using PTE 6.5.7 I just took your project and, with no changes to your project, I used VideoBuilder to create a 1280x720 video at 50 progressive frames per second, two-pass bitrate at 10 Mbps (which is about right for 1280x720x50p video). This took almost 2 hours and my PC is very powerful (dual quad-core). So this tells me that your slideshow is very complex.

But the video quality is excellent when I play it back from my hard drive with Media Player Classic - including the video at 02:53,161, 02:56,021 and 03:31,281. There is no tremble or stutter in the video; the motion is just as smooth and high-quality as it is in your .exe file. This may mean that your computer is not powerful enough to render this slideshow in high-definition. But I don't think that is true. Please read Frank's comments very carefully because everything he said is correct.

I will work more with your project this weekend and post my results here. I think the next step is for you to create a .mp4 file using VideoBuilder and then play that .mp4 file back from your hard drive using Media Player Classic. If you still have problems with the video then the problem is that your computer is not powerful enough. If you don't have problems with the video then we will know that the problem is not PTE or VideoBuilder or your computer and we can move to the next step.

Can you tell me if you know someone who has a Blu-ray player that can deliver progressive video from a Blu-ray disc with progressive video output to a 1920x1080 progressive HD TV using an HDMI cable? The reason I ask this question is because that is the best way to test the quality of the video stored on a Blu-ray disc and we may need to test it this way to solve your problem.

Ray

[orizaba]

Jose,

Using PTE 6.5.7 I just took your project and, with no changes to your project, I used VideoBuilder to create a 1280x720 video at 50 progressive frames per second, two-pass bitrate at 10 Mbps (which is about right for 1280x720x50p video). This took almost 2 hours and my PC is very powerful (dual quad-core). So this tells me that your slideshow is very complex.

But the video quality is excellent when I play it back from my hard drive with Media Player Classic - including the video at 02:53,161, 02:56,021 and 03:31,281. There is no tremble or stutter in the video; the motion is just as smooth and high-quality as it is in your .exe file. This may mean that your computer is not powerful enough to render this slideshow in high-definition. But I don't think that is true. Please read Frank's comments very carefully because everything he said is correct.

I will work more with your project this weekend and post my results here. I think the next step is for you to create a .mp4 file using VideoBuilder and then play that .mp4 file back from your hard drive using Media Player Classic. If you still have problems with the video then the problem is that your computer is not powerful enough. If you don't have problems with the video then we will know that the problem is not PTE or VideoBuilder or your computer and we can move to the next step.

Can you tell me if you know someone who has a Blu-ray player that can deliver progressive video from a Blu-ray disc with progressive video output to a 1920x1080 progressive HD TV using an HDMI cable? The reason I ask this question is because that is the best way to test the quality of the video stored on a Blu-ray disc and we may need to test it this way to solve your problem.

Ray

Hi Ray,

Thanks for all your help which I appreciate even more because not only you are trying to solve this particular problem of mine, as well as it makes me learn so many other aspects related to video, PTE, etc.. I am really lucky!

So you are studing my project.

Complex it is indeed, I have that notion.

My computer has an "INTEL CORE i5-750", 4 cores processor, and PTE VideoBuilder takes 02:23:12 making a MP4 (H.264) file, 2-pass, bitrate 24000 kbps, 60p fps.

This is one of last tests I made, and you know what? It seems that this is it!

Burning a BD with this file I got a 100% smooth and non-trembling image on my SONY plasma, using same PHILIPS BD home player!

However, with 3 exceptions where image trembles a LITTLE bit, so LITTLE that almost every people will not see.

These moments are (all of them only in the very start of the clip, not during all the clip lenght, and all those clips are 2,683 seconds long):

Slide 58 - 08:02,634

Slide 66 - 08:55,984

Slide 74 - 09:59,968

You can notice such trembling on the moving guitar, which side moves faster than the center field of picture.

So I think that solution has been to make the MP4 at 60 progressive fps instead of my usual 25p fps, or even 50p fps which I tried as well.

I used 24000 kbps (maximum available in PTE VideoBuilder) in order to try, and I became astonished with good result, comparing with my former tests and results.

However, I think (will it be my imagination...?) that image definition (I mean, resolution, or sharpness, or whatever...) is not so good as the one I got with same 24000 kbps but at 25p fps.

I would like you to comment this particular aspect: is there any reason to a "sharpness" decrease because of using 60p fps instead of 25p fps?

My thinking is yes, there is a reason, and GSPOT Frame Quality justifies such reason.

At 25p fps Frame Quality is 0,463

At 60p fps Frame Quality is 0,193 (42% of the above 0,463)

Is it so?

Now, replying to your other points:

I always use MEDIA PLAYER CLASSIC HOME CINEMA to test (and see audio/video bitrates, droped frames, etc.) my MP4 video files and usualy I have no trembling problems (I do have them with VLC).

Anyhow, I do think that my computer is not powerful enough to solve this actual high complexity of my project. But this never was a big disapointment for me because I knew that the resulting Blu-Ray disc would be perfect!

In fact, when "converting" this MP4 into BD (using NERO) I knew that NERO software would care of this complexity, taking it the hours it would take. This was the reason why I thought that problem was PTE VideoBuilder producing a bad MP4 from start.

No, at this moment I can't find nobody with a home BD player and a FULL HDTV set. Yes, I would love to try an HDMI connection, it's the correct connection, not mine (component YUV, not RGB as I told before to Frank). But at the time my plasma was built (2001) HDMI connection was not invented yet!

One more point:

This last "good" BD (made with NERO, as usual) is 1080i 25 fps (not 1080p) and plasma indicates 1080/50i.

Before, I had used same MP4 file but burning BD at 1080p 24 fps (in fact this is the only option NERO has to make 1080p).

Result was very, very bad, I mean, lots of trembling everywhere.

Why does this happen? Is it because my SONY plasma is not able to show 1080p?

However, the commercial BD "Mamma Mia" is 1080p, my PHILIPS plays it well and plasma shows it very well, however indicating 1080/60i.

Strange, is it not?

Thanks once more, Ray.

Regards,

Jose

[orizaba]

Hi Jose,

then take the chance by creating a 1280x720 60p 100% quality MP4 and try to setup your BD-Player that it delivers 720/60p to your TV.

By that you can see whether it helps in trembling animations and qualify how much you miss in the image-quality sector.

As you can see, when involving many parts there is always a bottleneck. Something like "best quality" must be defined by taking all limiting aspects into account, it doesn't exist as a absolute figure. You need to balance sharpness, smothness, compatibility and so on to get the best overall viewing pleasure for your audience.

To get best quality you should also use the latest version (6.5.7) of PTE because of "Fixed problem (5.6.0 to 6.5.5) with loss of details in lights and shadows in created H.264 video file (video file for PC & Mac, YouTube, Facebook, iPhone, iPad)"

Regards,

Frank

Hi Frank,

I just replied to last post from Ray and I would ask you kindly to read it like it was for you as well.

After all, subject is the same and only one, and both of you are hardly trying to help me on it.

Thanks once more.

I am using, since it came out, PTE versio 6.5.7.

In my PHILIPS BD player I am using COMPONENT OUT, and in my plasma I select YUV (my former mistake, as I told you RGB).

So, signal can come out of BD player as PROGRESSIVE, but only can "enter" in the plasma if is 480, 575 or 720 lines, not 1080.

As I told, I got to produce a MP4 file 2-pass, 24000 kbps, 60p fps.

With this file I could burn a BD which I can say is 99% good. I "give" 1% to those 3 trembling instants I refered to Ray.

Nevertheless, I am in doubt concerning image "sharpness", I "think" that it decreased...

Tomorrow I "must" show for the first time my project to an audience, using the BD disc, that's why I was a little bit in a hurry. Lucky me that I got a 99% good BD!

But I will follow your sugestion next, I mean, make a MP4 file 1280x720, 60p fps (I will use 2-pass 24000 kbps in order to try this maximum, and 1-pass 100% quality, as you say, if necessary).

I will use same COMPONENT OUT from PHILIPS, set output to 720p and hope that my plasma will indicate YUV, 720/60p.

Of course, I will burn BD in NERO using 24 fps, as it is the one which allows PROGRESSIVE frames.

I will compare final result with my actual 99% good BD!

Best regards,

Jose

[potwnc]

Hi Ray,

Thanks for all your help which I appreciate even more because not only you are trying to solve this particular problem of mine, as well as it makes me learn so many other aspects related to video, PTE, etc.. I am really lucky!

So you are studing my project.

Complex it is indeed, I have that notion.

My computer has an "INTEL CORE i5-750", 4 cores processor, and PTE VideoBuilder takes 02:23:12 making a MP4 (H.264) file, 2-pass, bitrate 24000 kbps, 60p fps.

This is one of last tests I made, and you know what? It seems that this is it!

Burning a BD with this file I got a 100% smooth and non-trembling image on my SONY plasma, using same PHILIPS BD home player!

However, with 3 exceptions where image trembles a LITTLE bit, so LITTLE that almost every people will not see.

These moments are (all of them only in the very start of the clip, not during all the clip lenght, and all those clips are 2,683 seconds long):

Slide 58 - 08:02,634

Slide 66 - 08:55,984

Slide 74 - 09:59,968

You can notice such trembling on the moving guitar, which side moves faster than the center field of picture.

So I think that solution has been to make the MP4 at 60 progressive fps instead of my usual 25p fps, or even 50p fps which I tried as well.

I used 24000 kbps (maximum available in PTE VideoBuilder) in order to try, and I became astonished with good result, comparing with my former tests and results.

However, I think (will it be my imagination...?) that image definition (I mean, resolution, or sharpness, or whatever...) is not so good as the one I got with same 24000 kbps but at 25p fps.

I would like you to comment this particular aspect: is there any reason to a "sharpness" decrease because of using 60p fps instead of 25p fps?

My thinking is yes, there is a reason, and GSPOT Frame Quality justifies such reason.

At 25p fps Frame Quality is 0,463

At 60p fps Frame Quality is 0,193 (42% of the above 0,463)

Is it so?

Now, replying to your other points:

I always use MEDIA PLAYER CLASSIC HOME CINEMA to test (and see audio/video bitrates, droped frames, etc.) my MP4 video files and usualy I have no trembling problems (I do have them with VLC).

Anyhow, I do think that my computer is not powerful enough to solve this actual high complexity of my project. But this never was a big disapointment for me because I knew that the resulting Blu-Ray disc would be perfect!

In fact, when "converting" this MP4 into BD (using NERO) I knew that NERO software would care of this complexity, taking it the hours it would take. This was the reason why I thought that problem was PTE VideoBuilder producing a bad MP4 from start.

No, at this moment I can't find nobody with a home BD player and a FULL HDTV set. Yes, I would love to try an HDMI connection, it's the correct connection, not mine (component YUV, not RGB as I told before to Frank). But at the time my plasma was built (2001) HDMI connection was not invented yet!

One more point:

This last "good" BD (made with NERO, as usual) is 1080i 25 fps (not 1080p) and plasma indicates 1080/50i.

Before, I had used same MP4 file but burning BD at 1080p 24 fps (in fact this is the only option NERO has to make 1080p).

Result was very, very bad, I mean, lots of trembling everywhere.

Why does this happen? Is it because my SONY plasma is not able to show 1080p?

However, the commercial BD "Mamma Mia" is 1080p, my PHILIPS plays it well and plasma shows it very well, however indicating 1080/60i.

Strange, is it not?

Thanks once more, Ray.

Regards,

Jose

Jose,

I am stil working with your PTE project and I will have some answers for you tomorrow and some more answers in the next few days.

I think we have now confirmed that PTE/VideoBuilder is not the problem.

I will look especially at:

Slide 58 - 08:02,634

Slide 66 - 08:55,984

Slide 74 - 09:59,968

Ray

[stardealer]

Hi Jose,

every BD-Player should be capable to play a MP4-file directly from any compatible media. My preferred way is to burn a Data-DVD or just transfer it to a USB-Stick, put it in the player and playback.

When you use NERO to author a BD with menu etc. you have another software component in the game, which means enhanced complexity in the process and as you described it, another format conversion.

I have given many shows to friends and family as DVD data discs and everyone was happy with it. The ones that have a BD-Player can play them on TV, the others on PC. The only problem I have faced was when using 1920x1080 60p High Quality because this demands to much rendering power from some of the BD-Players/PCs.

GSPOT frame quality is only a simple divide

(video bitrate in bits/second) / (horizontal res * vertical res * framerate)

and you shouldn't care to much about it.

I don't have NERO and I also don't have a BD-Burner, so can't assist on that one, but 1080p 24fps is only playbacked well, when your plasma is able to playback native 24p, otherwise your scaler converts it with 3:2 pulldown or otherwise as described before. Your plasma from 2001 in my opinion isn't capable of 24p native playback.

If I understand your post correctly the best result you have reciebed by:

- Creating a MP4 with 1920x1080 60p Bitrate 24000 2-Pass

- Converting it with NERO to 1920x1080i 25fps by which you may have combined 60/25 = 2.4 frames of original MP4 into one frame of resulting MP4 which may explain the loss of sharpness

- Playback on BD-Player which results in a ouptut format of 1920x1080i 50fps

- Internal converting of plasma to 1024x1024 pixels

Again: My advice is to burn the original MP4 directly as data-disc (DVD with 4.7 GB should be sufficient and is much cheaper) and playback on BD-Player. I would lower the resolution as said before because it should be sufficient for your plasma but first give it a try with the MP4s you already have created.

Maybe Ray can offer better advice as it seems he has experience with BD-authoring.

Regards,

Frank

[potwnc]

Jose,

I spent a few hours today working with your project and researching your problem and your set up some more. Working backwards through your posts:

Your best result so far (and your last "good" BD) is with VideoBuilder creating 1920 x 1080 x 60 progressive fps. Even though VideoBuilder lets you believe it can do this I am sure that the .mp4 file it produces has 60 (actually 59.94) interlaced fps. So when you use Nero to create the BD it is converting the video to 1920 x 1080 x 50 interlaced fps. This conversion of framerate is one of the sources of your problem.

I read the specifications for both your monitor and your BD player. Your BD player can support full HD (1920x1080) at 60i, 30p, 50i, 25p and 24p. Your monitor can support 1920x1080 only by scaling it down to 1024x1024 and then only at 60i, 30p, 50i and 25p. Although, as Frank said, commercial BDs are almost always encoded and stored at 24p there are very few monitors (and they are very expensive) that can display at 24p.

There is no reason why your project would create sharper/better video at 60 (interlaced) fps versus 50 (interlaced) fps. It may be that you do not have everything set up at the same frame rate? If you want to burn your BD at 50i then everything else should be set to 50i - the .mp4 output from VideoBuilder (here you must choose 50p but this is misleading because it will actually create 50i), Nero, your BD player and your monitor. If you want to burn your BD at 60i then use 60 instead of 50 for VideoBuilder (again choose the misleading 60p because it will create 60i), Nero, your BD player and your monitor. The quality will not be noticably different for 60 versus 50. So your decision here should be based on who else will play your BD on their player? Most BD players and HD monitors sold in Europe now can be set up for both 60 (ntsc) and 50 (pal) but your safest choice is 50.

On the other hand if you want your BD to be encoded/stored with progressive frames then you should choose 24p in VideoBuilder (this is not misleading and the actual .mp4 video will be 23.976 progressive fps), and 24p in Nero. I'm not sure about your BD player and monitor set up though. Although your connection from your player to your monitor is component and your player can deliver 1920 x 1080 x 24p are you sure it can deliver this using the component output? It may only be able to deliver it via the HDMI output. You will have to check this. Even then because your monitor cannot display 1920x1080 x 24p there will be a conversion either in your player or in your monitor, as Frank explained. Any such conversion will always lead to some loss of quality.

Now that I've said all that let's look at your 3 problem slides - 58, 66 and 74. I created versions of your video at 1920x1080 at 60i, 50i, 30p, 25p and 24p and they all show the same problem with these slides.

58: Your image, "DSCF1412d tratada 01 OLD equalMAIOR60pcMAIS.jpg", is only 1382x777 pixels and of low quality, and then you are zooming into a very small area of it. The quality of the original is just not good enough to produce 1920x1080 video and expect good quality. Your other problem here is that your pan, zoom and rotate are all set to "slow down" and this is why you see the problem, as you said, only at the very start of the corresponding video. The motion at the start is at a speed that it not suitable for video. Can you try changing the pan, zoom and rotate on this slide to linear or keep the slide for longer than 2.7 seconds?

66: The explanation is similar. You are using the same image but here your pan, zoom and rotate create a lot of motion in only 1.2 seconds. This is just not suitable for video. You can try moving the middle keypoint to the right, or keeping the slide for longer (or both).

74: Your image, "DSCF1412c tratada 01 RETOCADA.jpg" seems to be the same image as "DSCF1412d tratada 01 OLD equalMAIOR60pcMAIS.jpg" except this image is in color and it is 1920x1080 pixels? If it is the same image you should not save it in black-and-white reduced to 1382x777 pixels. If you save it instead to 1920x1080 pixels you will have more image to zoom, pan and rotate in slides 58 and 66 and this will help with those slides. Even though this image is 1920x1080 pixels you are zooming into a very small area of it in only 2.5 seconds so my comments for 58 and 66 also apply to 74.

Now that I've said all that I should ask 2 questions. Because most of your files are called "DSC..." I assume they are taken with a digital camera?

(1) What is the original pixel resolution of your images when the photographs were taken?

(2) Do you still have the original files?

Depending on your answers to these questions and given that your monitor cannot display true 1920x1080 my final advice may be for you to create only 1280x720 video from this project. I will look for your answers and we will go from there.

Ray