Help: Best video file out of PTE project

[orizaba]

Ray,

05:47 in the morning, here, I just got home and saw the above post of yours.

I am really impressed!

Thanks so much for all your fantastic work and good will!

Tomorrow I will read it again and reply.

Good night!

Jose

[stardealer]

Your best result so far (and your last "good" BD) is with VideoBuilder creating 1920 x 1080 x 60 progressive fps. Even though VideoBuilder lets you believe it can do this I am sure that the .mp4 file it produces has 60 (actually 59.94) interlaced fps. So when you use Nero to create the BD it is converting the video to 1920 x 1080 x 50 interlaced fps. This conversion of framerate is one of the sources of your problem.

Why do you think that 1920x1080 50p/60p in VideoBuilder is interlaced?

I know that actual official BD standard only contains 1080p24, but H.264 should be capable of any resultion, progressiv/interlaced and framerate combination. HDMI specification contains 1080p60 with "Category 2 HDMI cables" and also some TVs are specified for accepting 1080p60. I didn't check what Media- or BD-Players are specified accordingly for MP4-playback in 1080p60 from any other media than BluRay-Disc.

Please let me know how you analyzed the MP4 created by videobuilder.

Thanks,

Frank

[orizaba]

Jose,

I spent a few hours today working with your project and researching your problem and your set up some more. Working backwards through your posts:

Your best result so far (and your last "good" BD) is with VideoBuilder creating 1920 x 1080 x 60 progressive fps. Even though VideoBuilder lets you believe it can do this I am sure that the .mp4 file it produces has 60 (actually 59.94) interlaced fps. So when you use Nero to create the BD it is converting the video to 1920 x 1080 x 50 interlaced fps. This conversion of framerate is one of the sources of your problem.

I read the specifications for both your monitor and your BD player. Your BD player can support full HD (1920x1080) at 60i, 30p, 50i, 25p and 24p. Your monitor can support 1920x1080 only by scaling it down to 1024x1024 and then only at 60i, 30p, 50i and 25p. Although, as Frank said, commercial BDs are almost always encoded and stored at 24p there are very few monitors (and they are very expensive) that can display at 24p.

There is no reason why your project would create sharper/better video at 60 (interlaced) fps versus 50 (interlaced) fps. It may be that you do not have everything set up at the same frame rate? If you want to burn your BD at 50i then everything else should be set to 50i - the .mp4 output from VideoBuilder (here you must choose 50p but this is misleading because it will actually create 50i), Nero, your BD player and your monitor. If you want to burn your BD at 60i then use 60 instead of 50 for VideoBuilder (again choose the misleading 60p because it will create 60i), Nero, your BD player and your monitor. The quality will not be noticably different for 60 versus 50. So your decision here should be based on who else will play your BD on their player? Most BD players and HD monitors sold in Europe now can be set up for both 60 (ntsc) and 50 (pal) but your safest choice is 50.

On the other hand if you want your BD to be encoded/stored with progressive frames then you should choose 24p in VideoBuilder (this is not misleading and the actual .mp4 video will be 23.976 progressive fps), and 24p in Nero. I'm not sure about your BD player and monitor set up though. Although your connection from your player to your monitor is component and your player can deliver 1920 x 1080 x 24p are you sure it can deliver this using the component output? It may only be able to deliver it via the HDMI output. You will have to check this. Even then because your monitor cannot display 1920x1080 x 24p there will be a conversion either in your player or in your monitor, as Frank explained. Any such conversion will always lead to some loss of quality.

Now that I've said all that let's look at your 3 problem slides - 58, 66 and 74. I created versions of your video at 1920x1080 at 60i, 50i, 30p, 25p and 24p and they all show the same problem with these slides.

58: Your image, "DSCF1412d tratada 01 OLD equalMAIOR60pcMAIS.jpg", is only 1382x777 pixels and of low quality, and then you are zooming into a very small area of it. The quality of the original is just not good enough to produce 1920x1080 video and expect good quality. Your other problem here is that your pan, zoom and rotate are all set to "slow down" and this is why you see the problem, as you said, only at the very start of the corresponding video. The motion at the start is at a speed that it not suitable for video. Can you try changing the pan, zoom and rotate on this slide to linear or keep the slide for longer than 2.7 seconds?

66: The explanation is similar. You are using the same image but here your pan, zoom and rotate create a lot of motion in only 1.2 seconds. This is just not suitable for video. You can try moving the middle keypoint to the right, or keeping the slide for longer (or both).

74: Your image, "DSCF1412c tratada 01 RETOCADA.jpg" seems to be the same image as "DSCF1412d tratada 01 OLD equalMAIOR60pcMAIS.jpg" except this image is in color and it is 1920x1080 pixels? If it is the same image you should not save it in black-and-white reduced to 1382x777 pixels. If you save it instead to 1920x1080 pixels you will have more image to zoom, pan and rotate in slides 58 and 66 and this will help with those slides. Even though this image is 1920x1080 pixels you are zooming into a very small area of it in only 2.5 seconds so my comments for 58 and 66 also apply to 74.

Now that I've said all that I should ask 2 questions. Because most of your files are called "DSC..." I assume they are taken with a digital camera?

(1) What is the original pixel resolution of your images when the photographs were taken?

(2) Do you still have the original files?

Depending on your answers to these questions and given that your monitor cannot display true 1920x1080 my final advice may be for you to create only 1280x720 video from this project. I will look for your answers and we will go from there.

Ray

Hi Ray,

Here I am.

Starting by the end:

1. My digital camera is an old (almost pocket) FUJI FINEPIX A500, and I always use option 5,1 Mega pixels (maximum available).

Its only format is 4:3, resolution 2592x1944. When I first time download pictures from camera I save them as BMP files (14,4 MB each) and all image "treatment" with my PhotoStudio software is made with BMPs. When each image is ready to go to PTE I save it as JPG. This includes masks, graphics, etc..

This actual project I decided to make it 16:9, so you easily see that all my photos had to be zoomed!

No, I don't have anymore the original JPGs, but I do have a complete archive of respective "original" BMPs.

Yes, my old plasma monitor can not display true 1920x1080, but I hope to buy soon (!?) a new 65" 1080p Plasma HDTV PANASONIC VIERA TC-P65VT25, in case in the meantime nothing better comes out.

That's why I want from now to make my PTE projects in 1920x1080 and burn good BD discs, in order to full enjoy them in the future.

So I think that 1280x720 is out of question.

2. Like Frank asked, how did you know that VideoBuilder does not create 60p? I myself should like to know how to analyse an MP4 file, beyond GSPOT possibilties.

By the way, my future PANASONIC is able to process 24p! (I think only thing it's not able to process is breakfast in bed...)

3. Considering your next analysis, I think I already could conclude that less than 60 fps in VideoBuilder (beeing it "i" or "p") leads us to an almost constant image trembling everytime image runs a little bit faster. So, for this particular project, I think VideoBuilder 60 fps is 100% necessary.

Problem is that NERO only offers 3 options: 24p fps, 25i fps and AUTOMATIC (which is standard for 25i fps). This has been cleared somedays ago in a LIVE CHAT with NERO SUPPORT.

So, I full agree with your correct statement, but it's impossible for me to burn at 60 fps. I always must burn at 25i or 24p. This last "good" BD was burn at 24p fps and it's good (except those 3 slides).

Less "visual quality"? I think I must forget... May be there is no loss of quality at all... What can I do?

Is there any software to burn at FULL HDTV 60p, 50p or even 30p?

Even if it exists, what about other BD players? Mine, as you say, misses 50p and 60p. What about others?

So I think I will follow your advice in the futures for next projects: VideoBuilder 50p (60p if necessary), NERO at 24p.

Problem of HDMI connection is out of question, now, for obvious reasons. I am sure that with PANASONIC results will be better.

And of course, I'm not sure at all that my BD player component output is delivering 24p.

4. Slides 58, 66, 74

Yes, it's always the same slide, and it is a good idea to try improving 58 and 66 using 1920x1080 saved 74 (not 1382x777 copy). I used 1382x777, which is a reduction to 60%, because during the project process I already noticed here some heavy trembling using 1920x1080. So I reduced them to 60% to low the "amount of work" for the processor. I will try again.

Considering modify these slides' animation, from slowdown to linear, I think it's out of question because clip's dynamic would be deeply changed for worst.

The same concerning a lenght increase of such clips, as not only the whole sequence would be out of music compass, as well as more than 2 seconds to look to an instrument would be more than boring.

Anyhow, trembling is explained and justfied, and I must thank you very much for that and for all the work, time and trouble you had with me.

Best regards,

Jose

[stardealer]

Hi,

I can't really understand the reason why Jose, Ray and some other put so much effort in burning BluRay-Discs. Every actual BD-Player has at minimum one USB connection and mostly can playback the MP4s generated by PTE Videobuilder directly. You can attach a mobile harddrive or a USB-stick, it's so easy and in no way so time consuming as converting again and burning a BD. If you don't like harddrive or stick you can also burn a data DVD or for smaller MP4s (<700MB) a data CD, put it in the player and playback in best quality. It's also the cheapest way to give your shows to friends or family and you can burn the EXE as additional version on the same CD/DVD for best viewing pleasure if someone likes to playback on PC.

Is it about having a menu to start the show or what else?

Maybe someone can shed some light on this?

Regards,

Frank

[orizaba]

Hi Jose,

every BD-Player should be capable to play a MP4-file directly from any compatible media. My preferred way is to burn a Data-DVD or just transfer it to a USB-Stick, put it in the player and playback.

When you use NERO to author a BD with menu etc. you have another software component in the game, which means enhanced complexity in the process and as you described it, another format conversion.

I have given many shows to friends and family as DVD data discs and everyone was happy with it. The ones that have a BD-Player can play them on TV, the others on PC. The only problem I have faced was when using 1920x1080 60p High Quality because this demands to much rendering power from some of the BD-Players/PCs.

GSPOT frame quality is only a simple divide

(video bitrate in bits/second) / (horizontal res * vertical res * framerate)

and you shouldn't care to much about it.

I don't have NERO and I also don't have a BD-Burner, so can't assist on that one, but 1080p 24fps is only playbacked well, when your plasma is able to playback native 24p, otherwise your scaler converts it with 3:2 pulldown or otherwise as described before. Your plasma from 2001 in my opinion isn't capable of 24p native playback.

If I understand your post correctly the best result you have reciebed by:

- Creating a MP4 with 1920x1080 60p Bitrate 24000 2-Pass

- Converting it with NERO to 1920x1080i 25fps by which you may have combined 60/25 = 2.4 frames of original MP4 into one frame of resulting MP4 which may explain the loss of sharpness

- Playback on BD-Player which results in a ouptut format of 1920x1080i 50fps

- Internal converting of plasma to 1024x1024 pixels

Again: My advice is to burn the original MP4 directly as data-disc (DVD with 4.7 GB should be sufficient and is much cheaper) and playback on BD-Player. I would lower the resolution as said before because it should be sufficient for your plasma but first give it a try with the MP4s you already have created.

Maybe Ray can offer better advice as it seems he has experience with BD-authoring.

Regards,

Frank

Hi Frank,

Yes, every BD Player should be capable to play MP4 files directly, but I regret to say that not my PHILIPS BDP7300, only certified for DivX Ultra. And this Ultra is limited to 720x576 resolution.

Before I discovered this "small detail" on the User Manual, I tried several times using USB pen: "This format is not allowed" or "This resolution is not allowed" were the messages on plasma. At last, I used "DivX Plus Converter 8.0.1.49" and I converted my PTE MP4 file (2-pass 24000 kbps, 60p fps) to DivX Ultra, I mean, 720x576, 7000 kbps, 30 fps (best parameters for such conversion).

I put my USB pen on player and there it was, my project, on the plasma. Not in 16x9, but 4:3 it was, and I couldn't find a way to put it in 16:9, because either player or plasma were already configured to 16:9. Only way: changing H size of plasma (what is possible, as well as vertical size, as well as H or V shift, my SONY is great...!)

As expected, image was quite disgraceful, impossible to look at.

So, I must insist on BD discs, which I only will use for final burning, in order to keep and offer, because in this meantime I am using only one BD-RE for all these tests.

But it is really a very good idea of yours to save the original PTE MP4 file in a USB pen (or DVD) and play it directly on the BD Player.

By the way, when you say "The only problem I have faced was when using 1920x1080 60p High Quality because this demands to much rendering power from some of the BD-Players", in my case (PTE MP4 file, 1920x1080, 24000 kbps, 60p fps) which should be some particular specifications of a BD Player in order to perform a good rendering? Because may be I will change my actual PHILIPS when I will have my new PANASONIC plasma (please see my last post to Ray).

Thanks to you and Ray, I think that my "quality" problem is at least explained and justified, if not solved to 100% (... those 3 slides...!), anyhow, I learned how to make the best of it as it is, and it is now very, very good indeed.

Thanks so much.

Best regards,

Jose

[potwnc]

Hi Ray,

No, I don't have anymore the original JPGs, but I do have a complete archive of respective "original" BMPs.

Jose,

I recommend that you use the original BMPs and convert them to JPG at their original pixel resolution for slides 58, 66 and 74 and save them at the highest quality possible. You will see a small improvement but the only way to see acceptable video from these 3 slides is by using my earlier suggestions.

You said: "I used 1382x777, which is a reduction to 60%, because during the project process I already noticed here some heavy trembling using 1920x1080. So I reduced them to 60% to low the "amount of work" for the processor." But this reduction will not make the video trembling better (it will make it worse!) The amount of work for the processor is more but only by a small amount.

Yes, my old plasma monitor can not display true 1920x1080, but I hope to buy soon (!?) a new 65" 1080p Plasma HDTV PANASONIC VIERA TC-P65VT25, in case in the meantime nothing better comes out.

That's why I want from now to make my PTE projects in 1920x1080 and burn good BD discs, in order to full enjoy them in the future.

So I think that 1280x720 is out of question.

This is another reason why you should use the original pixel size of your images.

2. Like Frank asked, how did you know that VideoBuilder does not create 60p? I myself should like to know how to analyse an MP4 file, beyond GSPOT possibilties.

By the way, my future PANASONIC is able to process 24p! (I think only thing it's not able to process is breakfast in bed...)

I know this because of the extensive testing I have done in the past using PTE to make 1920x1080 video. I even posted this finding on the forum and Igor confirmed it (you can find it by searching). 1920x1080 at 60 progressive fps will become standard one day but the bitrate required is too high for today's technology.

Problem is that NERO only offers 3 options: 24p fps, 25i fps and AUTOMATIC (which is standard for 25i fps). This has been cleared somedays ago in a LIVE CHAT with NERO SUPPORT.

Then you should use the use 24p or 25i in all your settings - VideoBuilder, Nero etc.

So, I full agree with your correct statement, but it's impossible for me to burn at 60 fps. I always must burn at 25i or 24p. This last "good" BD was burn at 24p fps and it's good (except those 3 slides).

Less "visual quality"? I think I must forget... May be there is no loss of quality at all... What can I do?

You can e-mail me the original (2592x1944) images of slides 58, 66 and 74 and I can try to make the video output acceptable to you.

Is there any software to burn at FULL HDTV 60p, 50p or even 30p?

At 60p and 50p I don't think there is any software. At 30p (and 25p) yes. I use Vegas Pro 10. I'm sure that the consumer version (Vegas Movie Studio Platinum HD) can do this.

Even if it exists, what about other BD players? Mine, as you say, misses 50p and 60p. What about others?

I don't think there are any commercial BD players available that can output 50p or 60p at 1920x1080.

Considering modify these slides' animation, from slowdown to linear, I think it's out of question because clip's dynamic would be deeply changed for worst.

I don't think there is a better solution but I am willing to work some more more with your project if you will e-mail the original images to me.

Ray

[potwnc]

Hi,

I can't really understand the reason why Jose, Ray and some other put so much effort in burning BluRay-Discs. Every actual BD-Player has at minimum one USB connection and mostly can playback the MP4s generated by PTE Videobuilder directly. You can attach a mobile harddrive or a USB-stick, it's so easy and in no way so time consuming as converting again and burning a BD. If you don't like harddrive or stick you can also burn a data DVD or for smaller MP4s (<700MB) a data CD, put it in the player and playback in best quality. It's also the cheapest way to give your shows to friends or family and you can burn the EXE as additional version on the same CD/DVD for best viewing pleasure if someone likes to playback on PC.

Is it about having a menu to start the show or what else?

Maybe someone can shed some light on this?

Regards,

Frank

Frank,

I will reply tomorrow.

Ray

[stardealer]

Hi Frank,

Yes, every BD Player should be capable to play MP4 files directly, but I regret to say that not my PHILIPS BDP7300, only certified for DivX Ultra. And this Ultra is limited to 720x576 resolution.

Before I discovered this "small detail" on the User Manual, I tried several times using USB pen: "This format is not allowed" or "This resolution is not allowed" were the messages on plasma. At last, I used "DivX Plus Converter 8.0.1.49" and I converted my PTE MP4 file (2-pass 24000 kbps, 60p fps) to DivX Ultra, I mean, 720x576, 7000 kbps, 30 fps (best parameters for such conversion).

Hi Jose,

1. Install latest firmware-update for BDP7300 (should be 1.026 or something)

2. Try again with the unchanged MP4s from videobuilder (try 1920x1080 but also 1280x720)

Regards,

Frank

[potwnc]

Hi,

I can't really understand the reason why Jose, Ray and some other put so much effort in burning BluRay-Discs. Every actual BD-Player has at minimum one USB connection and mostly can playback the MP4s generated by PTE Videobuilder directly. You can attach a mobile harddrive or a USB-stick, it's so easy and in no way so time consuming as converting again and burning a BD. If you don't like harddrive or stick you can also burn a data DVD or for smaller MP4s (<700MB) a data CD, put it in the player and playback in best quality. It's also the cheapest way to give your shows to friends or family and you can burn the EXE as additional version on the same CD/DVD for best viewing pleasure if someone likes to playback on PC.

Is it about having a menu to start the show or what else?

Maybe someone can shed some light on this?

Regards,

Frank

Frank,

Im my case I have a 78-minute documentary at 1920x1080x24p. Even though it would fit on a 32GB USB stick the cost to me of distributing it on a 32GB USB stick is much higher than the cost of distributing it on a BD. Also the current USB standard, 2.0, does not support the data transfer rate required for good quality HD video. (This will change with USB 3.0.)

Of course it will not fit on a CD or a DVD (even dual-layer).

I can see your points for shows that are much shorter (no more than 10 minutes) and 1280x720 but otherwise what you propose will result in loss of quality for one reason or another.

Ray

[stardealer]

Hi Ray,

big size is a perfect reason to use BD.

Regarding data transfer rates:

USB2.0 Full-Speed has 12MBit/s - may cause bandwith problems on high data-rate MP4s

USB2.0 High-Speed has 480MBit/s - should be sufficient for any MP4 data-rate

It may be different from model to model what USB-standard ist supported, I can write with 4-5MByte/s (30-40MBit/s) to my usual USB-stick and read speed normally should be higher, but it should be sufficient for any required data-rate anyway, except you have only USB2.0-Full and not USB2.0-High. (DVD-standard is 9.8 MBit/s, obviously slower than USB 2.0 Full, BD-standard is 36 Mbit/s)

I have faced problems on PC and also on BD-Player when using 1920x1080 60p medium quality, but it doesn't seem to be because of transfer-rates. Same show with 1920x1080 30p high-quality and therfore higher data-rate => no problem. It seems to be a lack of decoding performance. Calculate 60 nativ frames seems to be much more demanding than calculate 30 nativ frames and scale it up to 60i output.

In your last statement you refer to "loss of quality for one reason or another". If you use 24p you compromise quality in panning, rotation and when moving framed images across the screen. You further compromise quality when your presentation equipment is not fully 24p compatible. We have had "Black crush" until 6.5.7 and only one user claimed about it.

My statement is: You always have to compromise. Best animations and sharpness of moving subjects => 60p; Best color differntiation especially in images with low dynamic or shadow scenes => highest data-rate per frame; Highest detail => 1920x1080 and high data-rate; and so on. Everyone must decide which is the qualityfactor he/she wants to focus on.

Going one step further, I wonder whether everyone who claims "I want best quality for TV-output"

1. has a calibrated TV

2. makes sure to set every digital filter off (in TV and Media-Player)

3. takes care of best quality connection between Media-Player and TV

4. takes care to have nativ output of the choosen format in the media player without additional conversion

and so on.

As Igor said in another topic, "Indeed the picture sharpness should be exactly same for video as for executable file for same conditions" and "Even if video file has excellent quality, sharpness of video picture depends on video player software".

Regards,

Frank

[fh1805]

Jose/Ray/Frank,

As a moderator on this forum I have followed this topic with interest each day; and I just want to pay all three of you a massive great compliment for the way in which you have worked together on it. You've been a truly international team: one in Germany, one in Portugal and one in the US; and, I suspect, only one of you (Ray) writing in his "first language". I have marvelled at how you have communicated very complex technical details to one another with complete understanding of what each other was saying. You've proved the value of a forum such as this. Congratulations on what you've achieved.

By the way, I hope you realise that you have just established yourselves as this forum's "de facto" HD and Blu-Ray authoring experts! We'll all be turning to you for advice in the future.

regards,

Peter

[xahu34]

Hello all (und ein freundliches "Grüß Gott" aus Bayern nach Nordrhein-Westfalen),

I made my experience with 1920x1080p60/50 with the internal media player of my Samsung TV (LE40B650): It did not work, as I think, because of lack of decoding performance. The TV's manual says that the player has been optimized for p24. And what about the Western Digital Media Players: The specifications say that only Full HD videos with i30 or p24 are supported. 1920x1080p60 would be fine, but it seems that a lot of players do not support it. Nevertheless, I am not unhappy with my 1920x1080p24 videos, although I have to admit that fast pans are a bit jerky

Regards,

Xaver

Munich

[orizaba]

Hi Jose,

1. Install latest firmware-update for BDP7300 (should be 1.026 or something)

2. Try again with the unchanged MP4s from videobuilder (try 1920x1080 but also 1280x720)

Regards,

Frank

Hi Frank,

Sorry for the delay, I've been out.

You know? Life is a mistery!

I bought my PHILIPS BDP 7300 last November (from new, of course) and I always thought that everything should be updated.

When you told to update firmware I checked in Philips site.

Actual firmware is version 1026.1

The one installed was the pre-historic 914.4

In the meantime came out versions 919.2, 931.2, 934.2, 949.1 and 1006.5

Who could imagine 6 new versions in 2 months?

Ok, I installed v 1026.1 (as you guessed...) and you know? My MP4 video files play!

I underlined video because audio... UNSUPPORTED AUDIO FORMAT, so says the message.

What will be your "trick" to make audio play?

User Manual says that only mp3 and WMA audio files are accepted.

I could see that PTE VideoBuilder has no options, only something like "mp4a MPEG-4 AAC LC".

So I think that this BDP 7300 is a very low class BD Player, and for now there will be no solution, I think... but I will not guarantee till I receive your reply...!

In the meantime, concerning video image and trembling problems, using my pen USB 2.0, I played 2 already existing MP4 files from VideoBuilder:

1. 24000 kbps (2-pass), 60p fps.

Image quality (sharpness and everything) 100% excellent, like EXE file, I would say.

But, almost all moving slides show a very, very big shimmering (not visible in BD discs)

About trembling, I would say that all slides with a pan or zoom only a little bit faster, we see a constant "high-frequency" trembling, I mean, like the movement was divided/separated into fractions of second, fractions of displacement, you see, like "vibrating".

In complex fades or higher speeds of zooming or panning, image stops and remains stoped till I make PAUSE and PLAY (not FF or FB).

As you told to Ray, I think that this can be due to those 60p fps beeing too much for the Player, and also the USB pen which should be High-Speed 2.0, and mine is not.

By the way, my PHILIPS USB is High-Speed 2.0, so it says the Manual.

My plasma shows at 1080/50i (YUV), as expected.

2. VideoBuilder preset HD (1920x1080) High Quality (in GSPOT was 7345 kbps, 29,971 fps and plasma shows 1080/50i like before).

Image not bad, I would say good, but trembling too much (like in former tests with BDs).

Concerning 1280x720 I must make such MP4 and I will try it.

Ray suggested me to adopt for every phase always the same speed, 24 or 25 fps. I would say that in this particular project anything less that 60 fps gives bad results.

Your post to Ray concerning USB vs BD was very clear for me but again, in this case I must offer some BDs, and to see at home it should be fine if I buy a USB Hi-Speed pen, but shimmering and audio remain a problem.

Thanks again for all your help, Frank.

Best regards,

Jose

[orizaba]

Jose,

You can e-mail me the original (2592x1944) images of slides 58, 66 and 74 and I can try to make the video output acceptable to you.

Ray

Hi Ray,

As I already told Frank I've been away so, sorry for my delay.

I just uploaded to MediaFire a folder with 17 files (BMPs and JPGs) all derived from Slide DSCF 1412 (BMP) as I saved it from camera.

Your idea of working on this trying to get better results for PTE slides 58, 66 and 74, I must thank you very much but I can not accept because I would say it's an impossible task, even for me it would be very difficult.

Only because starting from DSCF 1412, I made n adjustments to it (PhotoStudio 5.5.0) and each one (or almost) I saved as BMP, so you see n a), ..., c), d)... items, as well as each time more words to the name of slide, indicating what I've done. And what have I done? I hardly remember! It would be hours or days trying to reproduce the final 58, 66 and 74.

Impossible!

Anyhow, I appreciate your good will and thank you for that.

Forget! Things are already fine, now, I am pleased with my final BD. After all, I am only playing with my retirement...

I only uploaded these files because you certainly deserve my consideration and I wouldn't deny this to you.

Please, don't care about this anymore, ok?

I appreciated your own opinions about USB, as well as Frank's and I go on learning everyday!

Thanking again,

Regards,

Jose

PS: I will send you MediaFire link to your private email, ok?

[orizaba]

Jose/Ray/Frank,

As a moderator on this forum I have followed this topic with interest each day; and I just want to pay all three of you a massive great compliment for the way in which you have worked together on it. You've been a truly international team: one in Germany, one in Portugal and one in the US; and, I suspect, only one of you (Ray) writing in his "first language". I have marvelled at how you have communicated very complex technical details to one another with complete understanding of what each other was saying. You've proved the value of a forum such as this. Congratulations on what you've achieved.

By the way, I hope you realise that you have just established yourselves as this forum's "de facto" HD and Blu-Ray authoring experts! We'll all be turning to you for advice in the future.

regards,

Peter

Hi Peter,

Am I one of the "HD and Blu-Ray authoring experts" in this Forum...?

Good joke!!!

Please...

Yes, you should thank Ray and Frank not only for their super-knowledgement on all these subjects, but also for their enormous good will and care trying to help people like me.

But yes, you are right, this is a unique Forum, and I myself have already said that more than once.

Congratulations to all of you!

(By the way, have you already watched my project? Come on, let me have your comments, ok? After all, I haven't yet been judged by a Moderator...)

Best regards,

Jose

[stardealer]

Ok, I installed v 1026.1 (as you guessed...) and you know? My MP4 video files play!

I underlined video because audio... UNSUPPORTED AUDIO FORMAT, so says the message.

What will be your "trick" to make audio play?

User Manual says that only mp3 and WMA audio files are accepted.

I could see that PTE VideoBuilder has no options, only something like "mp4a MPEG-4 AAC LC".

So I think that this BDP 7300 is a very low class BD Player, and for now there will be no solution, I think... but I will not guarantee till I receive your reply...!

Hi Jose,

now your BDP7300 can play PTE-MP4s directly. Isn't it fantastic! But no audio?

We now really have arrived in the mysteric space of hard-/software design. I have done some research. Your player supports audio in mp2, mp3, ac-3 and dts. But no AAC (Advanced Audio Coding) LC (Low complexity). AAC (MPEG-2 Part 7) is designed as the better or follow up version of MP3 (MPEG-1 Part 3). It has been defined several years ago and is common in use with H264 codecs. Why philips decided not to implement it, I don't know.

So where do we go from here now. I will tell you what you have to do to make your MP4 compatible to your BDP7300, but I think you will find it too complicated. But it really is not that complicated as it seems.

1. You have to extract the audio part (AAC) from your MP4. You need a tool e.g. tsMuxeR, choose the audio part and select demux

2. Now you have got the audio of your show in a seperate file named <your show>.aac

3. You need another tool to convert it to a format your BDP7300 supports. e.g. Free M4a to MP3 Converter from maniactools.com

4. Now you need a tool to put the video part and audio part together in one container e.g. mkvtools. There you open your original MP4 and your newly created MP3 together. Deselect the audio section of the MP4 and create a .mkv-file (you can also name it .mp4) from the video section of the orig mp4 and the new created MP3.

5. Now you have a MP4/MKV which contains only formats which are supported by your BDP7300

I have tested this procedure with a medium show (700 MB) and demuxing, converting AAC to MP3, muxing MP4-video and new MP3, test with VLC on PC, transfer to USB-Stick and playback test on my BD-Player took about 10 minutes in total.

There is only one conversion done in this process AAC to MP3, so no loss in video quality will occur and I think you won't hear quality difference in audio.

So you can see. Most of the time there's a solution, whether it's comfortable or not I don't mind, but don't blame me, blame the developers.

One additional hint: In my resaerch to your BDP7300 I have found (Thank Philips for their good FAQ) "Make sure that your mkv-files do not exceed the following level standards. 4.1 for High Profile files with a maximum bit rate of 20 MBit/second" As I understand it -> higher bitrates may (not always) exceed processing capabilities of decoding software in the player.

Regarding point 1 further down in your post:

You deliver 60p but your BDP7300 converts and delivers 50i to your plasma. Not a good combination, I would try to generate MP4 with 50p.

Shimmering may be the result of higher sharpness and some moire-effects -> you can try "anti-shimmer" in PTE on O&A-screen, properties tab, but you will loose sharpness

Image stop -> I think it is a sign of not enough processing power, not a sign for to less transfer speed

Point 2:

If I remember correctly my advice was 1920x1080 60p High Quality. To change the frame rate you first have to choose 1920x1080 High Quality and then change to user defined where you can alter the framerate.

When I consider your BDP7300 and your plasma with 1024x1024 I would think 1280x720 50p or 60p 100% Quality should result in a really good output. So please give it a try (directly with USB, forget about audio in the first place, just test video quality).

Regards,

Frank

P.S.: If you find this post confusing I apologize, but it's a confusing complex area of some horrible programmers paradise where some of them think that complexity has it's own beauty.

[xahu34]

Jose,

A perhaps easier way to recode your videos may be given by using the program "XMedia Recode" or even better "XMedia Recode Portable (no installation)". You can choose a configuration where the video part remains unchanged, while the audio part is recoded to MP3.

Regards,

Xaver

[orizaba]

Jose,

A perhaps easier way to recode your videos may be given by using the program "XMedia Recode" or even better "XMedia Recode Portable (no installation)". You can choose a configuration where the video part remains unchanged, while the audio part is recoded to MP3.

Regards,

Xaver

Hi Xaver,

Thanks for your help, as well.

In fact I used your sugestion "XMedia Recode 2.3.0.4" after a failed test with MkvTools (my fault).

So, thanks very much.

Regards,

Jose

[orizaba]

Hi Jose,

now your BDP7300 can play PTE-MP4s directly. Isn't it fantastic! But no audio?

We now really have arrived in the mysteric space of hard-/software design. I have done some research. Your player supports audio in mp2, mp3, ac-3 and dts. But no AAC (Advanced Audio Coding) LC (Low complexity). AAC (MPEG-2 Part 7) is designed as the better or follow up version of MP3 (MPEG-1 Part 3). It has been defined several years ago and is common in use with H264 codecs. Why philips decided not to implement it, I don't know.

So where do we go from here now. I will tell you what you have to do to make your MP4 compatible to your BDP7300, but I think you will find it too complicated. But it really is not that complicated as it seems.

1. You have to extract the audio part (AAC) from your MP4. You need a tool e.g. tsMuxeR, choose the audio part and select demux

2. Now you have got the audio of your show in a seperate file named <your show>.aac

3. You need another tool to convert it to a format your BDP7300 supports. e.g. Free M4a to MP3 Converter from maniactools.com

4. Now you need a tool to put the video part and audio part together in one container e.g. mkvtools. There you open your original MP4 and your newly created MP3 together. Deselect the audio section of the MP4 and create a .mkv-file (you can also name it .mp4) from the video section of the orig mp4 and the new created MP3.

5. Now you have a MP4/MKV which contains only formats which are supported by your BDP7300

I have tested this procedure with a medium show (700 MB) and demuxing, converting AAC to MP3, muxing MP4-video and new MP3, test with VLC on PC, transfer to USB-Stick and playback test on my BD-Player took about 10 minutes in total.

There is only one conversion done in this process AAC to MP3, so no loss in video quality will occur and I think you won't hear quality difference in audio.

So you can see. Most of the time there's a solution, whether it's comfortable or not I don't mind, but don't blame me, blame the developers.

One additional hint: In my resaerch to your BDP7300 I have found (Thank Philips for their good FAQ) "Make sure that your mkv-files do not exceed the following level standards. 4.1 for High Profile files with a maximum bit rate of 20 MBit/second" As I understand it -> higher bitrates may (not always) exceed processing capabilities of decoding software in the player.

Regarding point 1 further down in your post:

You deliver 60p but your BDP7300 converts and delivers 50i to your plasma. Not a good combination, I would try to generate MP4 with 50p.

Shimmering may be the result of higher sharpness and some moire-effects -> you can try "anti-shimmer" in PTE on O&A-screen, properties tab, but you will loose sharpness

Image stop -> I think it is a sign of not enough processing power, not a sign for to less transfer speed

Point 2:

If I remember correctly my advice was 1920x1080 60p High Quality. To change the frame rate you first have to choose 1920x1080 High Quality and then change to user defined where you can alter the framerate.

When I consider your BDP7300 and your plasma with 1024x1024 I would think 1280x720 50p or 60p 100% Quality should result in a really good output. So please give it a try (directly with USB, forget about audio in the first place, just test video quality).

Regards,

Frank

P.S.: If you find this post confusing I apologize, but it's a confusing complex area of some horrible programmers paradise where some of them think that complexity has it's own beauty.

Hi Frank,

I almost knew that you should have some trick yo overpass this situation of my PHILIPS BD Player!

And here it is, after a 2 days big battle...

No, your post is not confusing, and your method not complicated at all... should MkvTools install to make last step.

Ok, you already know the rest of the story.

I installed MkvToolNix 4.4.0 and everything was smooth till the end.

Results:

1. Original PTE MP4 file: 1920x1080, 2-pass, 24000 kbps, 60p fps. Converted (MkvToolNix) to another MP4 (same video, MP3 audio).

Converted file copied to USB pen.

PHILIPS: accepted file, runs file (clock is working), but no image and no sound. Plasma keeps blue color (PHILIPS menu).

GSPOT says "File type Unknown" and everything is blank, no indications at all.

I don't know what happened, but this file plays well (video and audio) in computer.

2. Original PTE MP4 file: 1920x1080, 2-pass, 24000 kbps, 60p fps (same file). Converted (XMedia Recode) to another MP4 (same video, MP3 audio).

Converted file copied to USB pen.

PHILIPS: accepted and plays well video and audio, but a big lot of trembling in almost zooms, pans and fades.

GSPOT says audio "mp4a MPEG-1" 48Khz St (which is MP3, ok), bitrate 24257 kbps.

Plays perfectly on computer (no shimmering/trembling at all)

SONY plasma: trembling, shimmering and big "jumps" sometimes.

Here I recalled what you said: PHILIPS reccomends no more than 20000 kbps!

3. Original PTE MP4 file: 1280x720, Quality 100, 60p fps (GSPOT shows Video bitrate 7500 kbps). Converted (XMedia Recode) to another MP4 (same video, MP3 audio)

(GSPOT shows video bitrate 7757 kbps , a lot under those PHILIPS 20000 kbps)

Copy to USB pen.

PHILIPS: accepted and plays file, video and audio, but almost always "vibrating" and sometimes trembling.

This is quite unacceptable, dispite the image quality is not so bad, but is clearly worse than 1920x1080, we can notice a difference (sharpness). Shimmering is big, as well.

Please note that in my PTE project all moving slides have "anti-shimmering" from start.

So, I think that "solution USB pen" must be abandoned: vibrating, trembling and shimmering image, quality not so good.

Another surprising point:

SONY plasma manual says "720/60p" is accepted (not "720/50p") (Please, check the SONY paper I sent you before).

PHILIPS manual says "Component out 720p" is possible.

Original MP4 file is 60p.

Why playing this last 1280x720 file, SONY plasma shows 720/50p? Yes, 50p, not 60p! How is that? I would bat that you have an explanation...!

In conclusion, all these tests and former BDs show that best solution is to make a PTE MP4 file 2-pass 24000 kbps 60p fps and burn a BD disc (with NERO at 25i fps) . Unless for my SONY Plasma and this particular project, this shows to be the best possible solution. In fact, only that problem with those 3 slides, which is already explained and justified.

Problem may be: what will happen in other BD Players? Hwo knows...!

And this is it, Frank.

I never thought in my life to run such extensive tests with you and Ray, and learning so many things in the meantime.

Thanks again!

Best regards,

Jose

[stardealer]

Hi Jose,

thanks for running these extensive tests.

Regarding the last point. Maybe your BDP7300 only delivers 720p/50 and no 720p/60.

I would be interested in one last try. Original MP4 1280x720 50p 100% Quality but I will fully understand if you have lost interest in testing again and again.

I'm sorry that you have put so much effort in it and got no pleasing result with untouched PTE-MP4s.

Regards,

Frank

[orizaba]

Hi Jose,

thanks for running these extensive tests.

Regarding the last point. Maybe your BDP7300 only delivers 720p/50 and no 720p/60.

I would be interested in one last try. Original MP4 1280x720 50p 100% Quality but I will fully understand if you have lost interest in testing again and again.

I'm sorry that you have put so much effort in it and got no pleasing result with untouched PTE-MP4s.

Regards,

Frank

Frank,

You shouldn't thank me for these "extensive tests", on the contrary, I am the one to thank you for them because, in first place, it's my pleasure (I'm that kind who finds some beauty in complexity...!), and second, I (still) like to learn and take conclusions.

Ok. I just finished this last test: PTE MP4, 1280x720, 50p, 1-pass, Quality 100 (everything as the last one - item 3 of last post - except, this time 50p).

I didn't re-convert audio, so I had no audio in my plasma show.

GSPOT said: bitrate 6502 kbps.

You know what? Image 100% perfect and stable all over the project, no tembling and no vibration at all! Neither in those 3 problematic slides (how is this possible, that's what I ask myself!)

Of course, shimmering is present (very big) just like with 60p, and this turns the solution quite impossible.

Image quality (sharpness) is like with 60p as well, not so bad, but worse than 1920x1080, it's visible, but not an "impossible" quality, I must say.

At last, my SONY plasma shows 720/50p, which agrees with PTE MP4 50p and PHILIPS 720p. Despite SONY paper saying that 50p is not accepted, only 60p is. This is rather curious, isn't it? What is going on?

One more point: this actual file runs 100% well in computer, and here we hardly notice the loss of image sharpness and quality. This is amazing but it is true.

As I said before,I must go to BD solution.

But I'm now asking myself if it wouldn't be better to burn this actual last file (1280x720, 50p), having in mind possible problems of other people's BD Players?

In this case, NERO BD processing (before burning) will change project to 1920x1080, 24p, so I don't know what will be final result, but at least it will be a "lighter" file to process/convert, so I think.

This is one more test I will make (lucky me...!) and I will let you know.

Regards,

Jose

[stardealer]

Hi Jose,

I wouldn't go the route 1280x720 50p as base file for 1920x1080 24p with Nero and I also wouldn't expect that BD-Players have problems with playback of your formerly created NERO BDs.

Because playback on your PC is good and we eliminated restrictions of your BD-Player (we now get native output 720p/50 and not limited by decoding performance), it comes down to the scaler of your plasma which does its job in this special situation well, except creating some sort of heavy shimmering and a little loss in sharpness.

Remapping 1280x720 (or 1920x1080) regular dots to 1024x1024 rectangular dots works good with static images, but will create more or less shimmering when moving images across the screen. With my plasma (1024x768, also rectangular dots) I get more shimmering when using 1920x1080 than with 1280x720. Shimmering shouldn't be a issue with all TVs (LCD or Plasma) that have square pixels.

As far as I know only plasma was produced with such uneven pixels but only in the HD-Ready era not nowadays in the Full-HD times.

You have to decide what's the best output format for your purpose but keep in mind -> other playback equipment may result in different experiences.

Regards,

Frank

[orizaba]

Hi Jose,

I wouldn't go the route 1280x720 50p as base file for 1920x1080 24p with Nero and I also wouldn't expect that BD-Players have problems with playback of your formerly created NERO BDs.

Because playback on your PC is good and we eliminated restrictions of your BD-Player (we now get native output 720p/50 and not limited by decoding performance), it comes down to the scaler of your plasma which does its job in this special situation well, except creating some sort of heavy shimmering and a little loss in sharpness.

Remapping 1280x720 (or 1920x1080) regular dots to 1024x1024 rectangular dots works good with static images, but will create more or less shimmering when moving images across the screen. With my plasma (1024x768, also rectangular dots) I get more shimmering when using 1920x1080 than with 1280x720. Shimmering shouldn't be a issue with all TVs (LCD or Plasma) that have square pixels.

As far as I know only plasma was produced with such uneven pixels but only in the HD-Ready era not nowadays in the Full-HD times.

You have to decide what's the best output format for your purpose but keep in mind -> other playback equipment may result in different experiences.

Regards,

Frank

Hi Frank,

Ok, I understood.

Just 3 more detais (I am sorry to take your time for some more minutes...!)

- In mine (and yours) plasma, are in fact "dots" rectangular, or horizontal pitch is bigger than vertical pitch, as I really think it is?

- What is really "shimmering", or why it happens? What has this to do with "square" or "rectangular" pixels? (as I told, "square" and "rectangular" has only to do with H and V pitch, is it?)

- What about my plasma's "50p", saying that SONY paper only "720/60p"?

Thanks,

Jose

[stardealer]

Hi Jose,

I try to explain what I may know about this area.

Whether the dots are shaped round, rectangular or squared doesn't matter, if horizontal pitch is bigger than vertical doesn't matter.

The point that matters is: How do you put incoming 1920x1080 (16:9) pixels into 1024x1024 (1:1) dots. These 1024x1024 are asymetrically arranged in a physical 16:9 form to avoid distortion.

Imagine how a incoming signal of 1920 pixel width with changing black and white lines being 3 pixels wide must be remapped to 1024 glowing plasma dots.

You have 320 black lines and 320 white lines totalling 640 lines. 1024 dots / 640 lines = 1.6 dots per line (or 1024 dots / 1920 pixel = 0,533 dots per pixel). In a simple remap this would result in

1st dot black

2nd dot 60% black / 40% white

3rd dot white

4th dot 20% white / 80% black

5th dot 80% black / 20% white

6th dot white

7th dot 40% white / 60% black

8th dot black (same as 1st)

Now move the original signal 1 pixel to the right then you get:

1st dot 53% white / 47% black

2nd dot black

3rd dot 13% black / 77% white

4th dot 83% white / 17% black

5th dot black

......

So every line in plasma is changing between black, white or any shade of gray. And this in a pulsated environment with 50 or 60Hz. Which means we have no continous impression as in nature, we have point to point impressions which are combinated in our brain.

We recognize these changing luminosity levels as a submovement in our brain. You can see this effect when you have a image of water with fine structures of highlights and shadows created by small waves (typically may be "swans on the small lake" or "lake with fountain". If you zoom it to 50% (the force interpolation) and pan slowly vertical (assuming that the waves are horizontally) the water comes to life because of this interpolated luminousity levels.

The anti-shimmering in PTE softens the image (even out harsh contrast changes between neighbouring pixels) and therby softens these luminosity changes and the resulting shimmering effect.

With hard patterns of changing contrast (hardest is black and white patterns) you additionally may get moire which is caused by interference and creates additional patterns in your image and change continually in moving images.

Regarding the diffenreces between user manual and your real life experience with 720p/50 and 60 -> It may be the difference between "works as designed" and "works as described".

Regards,

Frank

[orizaba]

Hi Jose,

I try to explain what I may know about this area.

Whether the dots are shaped round, rectangular or squared doesn't matter, if horizontal pitch is bigger than vertical doesn't matter.

The point that matters is: How do you put incoming 1920x1080 (16:9) pixels into 1024x1024 (1:1) dots. These 1024x1024 are asymetrically arranged in a physical 16:9 form to avoid distortion.

Imagine how a incoming signal of 1920 pixel width with changing black and white lines being 3 pixels wide must be remapped to 1024 glowing plasma dots.

You have 320 black lines and 320 white lines totalling 640 lines. 1024 dots / 640 lines = 1.6 dots per line (or 1024 dots / 1920 pixel = 0,533 dots per pixel). In a simple remap this would result in

1st dot black

2nd dot 60% black / 40% white

3rd dot white

4th dot 20% white / 80% black

5th dot 80% black / 20% white

6th dot white

7th dot 40% white / 60% black

8th dot black (same as 1st)

Now move the original signal 1 pixel to the right then you get:

1st dot 53% white / 47% black

2nd dot black

3rd dot 13% black / 77% white

4th dot 83% white / 17% black

5th dot black

......

So every line in plasma is changing between black, white or any shade of gray. And this in a pulsated environment with 50 or 60Hz. Which means we have no continous impression as in nature, we have point to point impressions which are combinated in our brain.

We recognize these changing luminosity levels as a submovement in our brain. You can see this effect when you have a image of water with fine structures of highlights and shadows created by small waves (typically may be "swans on the small lake" or "lake with fountain". If you zoom it to 50% (the force interpolation) and pan slowly vertical (assuming that the waves are horizontally) the water comes to life because of this interpolated luminousity levels.

The anti-shimmering in PTE softens the image (even out harsh contrast changes between neighbouring pixels) and therby softens these luminosity changes and the resulting shimmering effect.

With hard patterns of changing contrast (hardest is black and white patterns) you additionally may get moire which is caused by interference and creates additional patterns in your image and change continually in moving images.

Regarding the diffenreces between user manual and your real life experience with 720p/50 and 60 -> It may be the difference between "works as designed" and "works as described".

Regards,

Frank

Hi Frank,

As usual, your explanations were clear and complete, I understood every word.

Thanks very much for all your time.

Best regards,

Jose