VOICE-OVER MICROPHONE/PRE AMP

[paulziets]

I have been dabbling with AV for several years, in particular to make presentations to my local photographic society (which I do about once a year). For each presentation I have tended to make several short productions, each of them with a music only background track. After hearing a talk by Howard Gregory and Suzanne Walker of the Wilmslow Guild AV Group recently, I have decided to take the plunge and get serious about my AV work.

I had started out using PTE, migrated to ProShow Gold and then ProShow Producer, but on advice from the Wilmslow Guild AV Group have come back to PTE. I am using version 6.5 and am certainly pleased that I have made the moved back.

My next step is to look at getting the audio side of things right. I have Cool Edit Pro 2 for audio software, also using Audacity to convert some of my music files to MP3 when Cool Edit can't read some of my music collection. I will sooner than later have to do voice-over work but do not possess a microphone. Could I get some feedback on which microphone and pre amplifier the members of this forum would recommend? Some internet research has got me thinking of a Rode M3 or an AKG1000 condensor microphone and with pre-amps, the Behringer MIC800 or Art Tube MP Original. I am not in a manic rush to buy the equipment, it has to be fit for purpose and made to last. Of course, if I win the Euro Millions tonight, I may ignore the last sentence!

Paul Zietsman

[nelson]

Hello Paul,

I have good luck using a usb headset similar to http://www.logitech.com/en-gb/speakers-audio/headphones

I am looking at purchasing a wireless headset as sometimes I feel more comfortable standing.

Kieron

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Hi Paul

You might want to take a look at this post

I have had my Olympus two years now & I still believe it produces better sound recordings than anything else in it's price range. It has probably been superceeded by now with a newer model.

Yachtsman1

[xahu34]

Let me recommend to use a USB-microphone (e.g. Samson C03U, which works well for me) in combination with a pop filter. You record directly into Audacity or any other audio editor, you are independent of the PC's sound card, you do not need a pre amp, you have a nice workflow, the quality should be OK. Keep in mind that you are about to record voice-over and not Anna Netrebko.

Regards,

Xaver

[fh1805]

My own preference is for a portable digital sound recorder (Zoom H2, Zoom H4, Edirol R-09 or similar). Not only can these do the voice-over but they can also do location recording as well. Listen to some samples here.

Whatever decision you make, this is one purchase where you really should do a "try before you buy".

regards,

Peter

[ContaxMan]

I have been dabbling with AV for several years, in particular to make presentations to my local photographic society (which I do about once a year). For each presentation I have tended to make several short productions, each of them with a music only background track. After hearing a talk by Howard Gregory and Suzanne Walker of the Wilmslow Guild AV Group recently, I have decided to take the plunge and get serious about my AV work.

Paul Zietsman

Howard Gregory can help you a great deal with audio. He provides CDs that talk you through the essentials and makes a pre-amplifier that I've found to be really excellent! Why not check those out?

[paulziets]

Thanks for the replies, they are much appreciated.

I had not considered USB microphones - thanks Kieron and Xaver. Keith Leedham and Howard Gregory have both mentioned the Olympus and Zoom hand-held recorders in talks that I have been to recently, echoing Yachtsman and Peter's thoughts. Both highly praise the Olympus. Thanks also to Peter for the sound file which illustrates the use of the Zoom H4.

Roger, I should be seeing Howard at the next Wilmslow Guild meeting in April. I shall take the opportunity to speak to him about his CDs and pre-amp.

In the meantime its back to trying to improve my photographic and PTE skills (anything to escape lawnmowing duties)

Regards,

Paul Zietsman

[fh1805]

Paul,

Prior to getting the Zoom H4 recorder, I had tried one of Howard Gregory's pre-amps. When using it I still got masses of hiss and hum when trying to record directly into the PC. My diagnosis, using known, clean analogue recordings as input, was that the noise was being added by the PC itself. What I'm saying is that you will not know where your problems are going to be until you start tring different equipment out. Be prepared for a potentially long and bumpy "learning curve". But rest assured, the additional interest arising from a good voice-over plus location sound is well worth the effort to master the equipment and techniques.

Good luck!

Peter

[Conflow]

Hi Paul,

We have been in the Audio-Manufacturing business neigh on 40 years now so we know a little about Mics/Amps etc.

Firstly, Peter is dead on target ~ the "Mic-Input Socket" on any PC/Laptop have a noise level of approx -40.db

below Zero (Zero=.775vrms across 600.ohm) so -40.db is approx 7.millevolt of Noise which is predominant Hiss on

Laptops together with some Hum-modulation on PC's.

The 'Lo-Signal level' from an "AKG-Dynamic Mic" is approx -60.db/rel to Zero, thats approx 0.7 millevolt rising to

30/40.millevolt at 'Hi-Signal levels'. So for Lo/Medium "Mic-Overs" you will get quite an amount of audible 'Hiss' and

if its a PC you will get Hum & Hiss together.

The only other way into a Laptop/PC is via the USB-Inputs which are "noiseless" Data-inputs which are not in the

least effected by (random) analog-noises nor pick-ups coming from the Processor-Clocks & Mains-Converters.

There are many such Audio-USB devices on the Market and in our opinion its very hard to beat the "Griffin iMIC"

Adaptor (Usb-powered). It has both Stereo-Mic Input (can be wired Mono) and a Stereo-Line Input. For the price

of some $35 and even cheaper on Amazon its an ideal 'gizzmo' to experiment with. It will also accept ¼" to 3.mm

Stereo Adapters.

Below is a Screen-shot and Link to Griffin-Utilities (Supplied with MACs)

Brian (Conflow)

Link:

http://www.griffintechnology.com/products/imic/

[paulziets]

Brian and Peter, thanks for your responses.

Although a minefield for a newcomer like me, this is now starting to make more sense. I was not aware of the hiss/hum associated with the input into my PC via the sound card. This would take quite a bit of extra work to clean up. By using USB input, the signal will at least be clear of PC generated noise (from the power supply and processor).

Thinking aloud, as it were, if I were to connect an XLR cabled microphone (such as the AKG 100 or Rode M3) to the iMic, I could go through a pre-amp or use an XLR to Mini Jack cable. I assume there would still be some generated noise with either method. Would there be any benefit to go straight to a USB microphone such as the Samson CO3U suggested by Xaver or would the noise be similar? I suspect that the Samson, AKG and Rode mikes all have similar noise levels, that the cables should not make much difference which leaves the pre-amp as the only potential problem area? Of course I am totally ignoring the ambient noise in my study that I have become only too aware of as I write this. That will be a future problem to deal with I am sure.

Regards,

Paul Zietsman

[fh1805]

Paul,

"...ambient noise in my study..." What kind of noise is this? The noise of the computer's cooling fans? Or some other kind of external background noise? If you are going to try recording directly into the PC (irrespective of the type of mic) you will always have to contend with the ambient noise of the computer fans. You could try getting a mic with a good long lead that will allow you to speak the voice-over in a different room; but then how are you going to be able to see your sound levels without the assistance of someone else?

It was my desire to avoid these problems, allied to a desire to be able to do location sound recording, that led me to get a digital sound recorder. For me, the best way forward, having tried all the other options, was to use a device that records totally independently of the computer; and which then transfers the recording, as a data file, via a USB connection.

You've listened to Howard Gregory. You live within relatively easy reach of Wilmslow. I would, therefore, strongly support the advice of Contaxman: get as much advice as you can from Howard Gregory. If you haven't already done so - join Wilmslow Guild AV group and pick Howard's brains for everything he knows about sound recording. What he doesn't know about sound recording isn't worth knowing.

regards,

Peter

[xahu34]

Paul,

let me tell you that noise isn't an issue when using the Samson C03U. I use it (in connection with a pop filter) with the super cardioid pattern at a distance of about 10 inches (avoiding a strong proximity effect). There will be better (and much more expensive) microphones, but for voice over the quality oft the C03U is much more than sufficient. When recording I use an old notebook which does not produce any noise, and the super cardioid pattern helps to reduce other ambient noise. You may try to make your voice recording in the bedroom, placing the microphone inside the open wardrobe to avoid reverberation.

Regards,

Xaver

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Paul to reach the situation I am at, using the Olympus recorder/mike, I went through the Imic, Co3u & the Zoom derivative (which superceeded the H4), it was a very expensive exercise. However IMHO the Olympus is superior to all those. The Imac & the CO3U do not have the convenience of producing an outside recording without trailing along other equipment to produce the actual digital recording. The controls on the Olympus and it's build quality are evident the minute you handle it & the feature menu extensive compared to the Zoom. It is probably the most expensive of all the items mentioned. However, I'm a great believer in the saying "You get what you pay for!" If you check out the shows with VO I have posted on the forum in the last 2 years, you can judge for yourself.

Yachtsman1.

[xahu34]

I agree with Eric (Yachtsman1) that a studio microphone is not well suited for outside recording. I myself do not need it. In my opinion, outside recording is overestimated by many people. When working with still images, sound effects (representing motion) often do not work well. Outside recording itself is not easy because of all the noise around. It is often easier to search the Internet for particular sound effects (e.g. www.findsounds.com) or buy a sound CD.

Regards,

Xaver

[Guest Yachtsman1]

When I said "outside recordings" I was referring to unique events that you only get one chance to record and there is no professional substitute available. The outside recordings I have made were mostly related to local church choirs & a local steam fair which I used a mixture of mine & professional pieces.

When recording a voice over with my Olympus, I set it up on a mini tripod on a cushion in front of the PC screen, where I can refer to my printed script. I also use the 2GB card & hard drive in the Olympus to record on to, I have only once used it direct into the PC. I record in WAV mode then convert to MP3 via Audacity after completing the editing.

One of my favourite Professional sound effect sites is SoundSnaps which used to be free, but now you can only download 3 items per month with charge. http://www.soundsnap.com/node/57062

Yachtsman1.

[Conflow]

Paul,

One can go completely 'OTT' when it comes to 'Domestic-environmental Voice-overs' using all types of Microphones & Mixers etc,etc.

However one can never simulate the sheer quality of Studio Voice-overs for the reasons that you do not have access to the 5:3:2

Studio-size ratio's nor its Anechoic-properties nor access to Condenser-Mics such as Sennheiser, Neumann, nor AKG-4000's nor do

you have access to a proper Sound-Mixing Console.

So lets get reasonable with this topic, some Members like Peter use a Handheld Digital-Recorder and then transfer the sound over

to their Pte-Slideshow ~sounds great~ but they also have the problems of background-noises of Birds,Machines,Leaves and Wind and

they have to be ultra careful to avoid 'handling-noise' so this solution is not the best compromise available but it suits some Members.

Your proposed Domestic-environment should be fully-carpeted and heavily-draped and use only Tungsten-lighting (Bulbs) and for

Microphone support use a proper Flexi-Gooseneck Holder placed upon a sponge-rubber Mat at least 15.mm thick all on a Desk or

Table covered with a Baze-Cloth or Woolen-Rug. You will need a (right-angled) Wooden-baffle behind the Mic where both sides are

approx 12"high and 12-18" front to back. The Room should be squarish in shape but never twice the lenght of its width and never

any twice-multiple of Width-Depth-Height ~ avoid these multiples if at all possible.

If you are using a PC you will need to baffle that but do not enclose it.

Your Microphone should be a "Super-Cardoid (Noise-Cancellation) Dynamic Microphone" about 200.Ohm Impedance (somewhat like

Xaver suggested) and in that category there are many to choose from ~ more later. Do not use a Condenser Microphone because it

neither suits the environment nor will it give a good tonal-quality in that environment ~ Its also extremely delicate and hard to use and

much effected by athmospheric-humidity.

May I suggest the world famous Shure PG-58 or its twin the SM-58 or for a cheaper product the Samson-Co3u or the SoundLab-G146

which is a copy of the Shure SM-58. Make absolutely sure whichever Mic you use that it has a Muting-Switch ~ Thats very important.

As for XLR-Connectors and Cables:- Nothing could be more critical in the System than the XLR-Connector and its very special Cable.

These Cables are specially designed to cancel 50.Hz Hum pick-up working in unison with the Balanced-signal output from the Microphone

capsule and are sheathed in a mettalized Teflon-wrapping underneath the Rubber-outer Cover ~ this to cancel mechanical-noises from

cable movements and temperature shifts.

As for Mic-PreAmps: You will not need these if you use a 'USB-Mic Adaptor' together with a 200 or 600.Ohms Dynamic Mic (see above)

because Audacity has sufficient amplification factor to do that job. You can also purchase a suitable XLR~3mm Adapter for the USB-Unit.

Irrespective of what choices you make, I do hope the above data will assist you in making the system work properly.

Brian (Conflow)

[xahu34]

Brian,

A few remarks on your post:

• You recommend not to use a condenser microphone, but the Samson C03U that you mention actually is one.
  
• If you do not use it outside, then (in my opinion) a condenser microphone should be a good choice.
  
• I don't see an advantage in the configuration that you propose (microphone with XLR-connector, XLR ~ 3mm adapter, and a separate external A/D converter (Griffin iMIC)). Why not using a microphone that already includes the converter (e.g. AKG Perception 120 USB, Samson C03U) which plugs directly into the USB port of the PC.
  

Regards,

Xaver

[Conflow]

Hi Xaver,

No reason why the Samson C03U Microphone should not be used ~its a very good Mic. Although

I passed your suggestion to Paul, I personally would not class it as a 'true' Condenser Microphone.

In fact its a Twin-Diaphram (Electret-type) Mic working on the condenser principle where there

is a permanent excitation voltage generated by a charged-couplet device.

The Condenser Mic I was refering to is a Studio-Mic like the Neumann which has 2 metal-ribbons

held in close proximity (like a Condenser) and usually has an external Power-unit.The signal output

is derived from the charging-current of the 2 condenser-ribbons ~ thats true condenser operation.

The reason I suggested the Shure-PG58 or SM-58 is because the "tailored-acoustics" are inbuilt and

specially designed for Vocal & Voice-overs with internal 'Pop-Filter' with Acoustic and Electrical

in-built 'Noise-cancellation' within the Mic and its used "live" by virtually every artist in the World.

It can also take extreme punishment like 'hopping' it on the Floor and no 'set-up' is needed.

Its front to back pick-up ratio (or back rejection) is nearly -60.db or a 1000:1 rejection ratio.

Furthermore you can purchase it with a USB-Module or Radio-Link which Paul had refered too.

Shure use external Modules for redundancy purposes, because if your Mic 'pops' so does your

internal-inbuilt USB.

** With the Griffin iMic you can also add a noiseless Stereo-Music input signal.

My original Post was never meant to be a 'Review' of Microphones, good, bad nor indifferent,it was

purely designed to help Paul on his way with proven equipment known to work well which would take

the knocks and little accidents that occur with "live" Voice-overs ~ Thats important to a beginner.

Regards,

Brian (Conflow)

[Ken Cox]

THERE WAS A PERIOD IN 2008 WHERE MICROPHONES WERE A HOT TOPIC - if my memory serves me right members provide sound clips they recorded etc

from my info collection some of the links -- attached

ken

MICROPHONE.zip

[Guest Yachtsman1]

In case anyone missed it in my original post on this thread, I have dug out the original test PDF on the Olympus LS10 from 2009.

Yachtsman1.

Olympus_LS_10_write_up.r1.pdf