Comments on PicturesToExe Deluxe 7.0 Beta

[Barry Beckham]

Dave

Well if you look at the dimensions of my starting file and take into account it was confined mostly to a 1920*1200 format, you would expect to see the moire effect. In addition I kept the image small and looked at rotation and panning rather than zooming, all to add to the effect, but there is no sign of the moire effect or any softening or sharpening effect.

Igor does say that this feature dramatically increases sharpness of picture. I just want to be able to see that. I have just done the same test and set a 800*600 pixel slide show size with 6000*4000 images. Then I can just see some softness showing on the 128 setting, but who would be doing that.

[davegee]

I took a full frame JPEG from my camera and zoomed into 100%.

By moving the slider from -128 to 128 I can see obvious smoothing of the image and its details.

The way I have used it is to use two slides, the first for the animation (fit to slide through to 100% zoom for instance) and the second for the static image (100% zoom).

Set 128 during the animation and -128 during the static phase and at the end of the PZR the image snaps into sharp focus.

You don't have to use those figures - if the image is sharp enough for your taste then set 128 during animation and 0 when static.

Whether it reduces Moire is something else but it will (on most images) reduce shimmering - these are two different subjects (I think?).

DG

[Ken Cox]

Dave

for the test would the shimmer be more obvious if one shot it to the tv or a beemer?

ken

[davegee]

Don't know Ken - never tried that.

I wouldn't advocate using the TV to test anything like this. It is OK for showing PTE EXE files (when the colour settings are NEUTRAL) but when editing I use a Computer Monitor - not a TV or a projector.

DG

[Barry Beckham]

OK, by putting 2 identical huge images into O&A and adding 128 to one and -128 to the other I can now see some effect, but to be honest it appears that I can ignore the setting for my own work because I can't seem to create any problems at the default settings.

The moire effect is/was made worse by contrast/sharpness. Thats the shimmy you referred to, and to combat it, we would soften the image a little either global or locally.

Igor must have done something to improve the moire effect, because at one point in time it was hard to avoid the moire effect when animating, now its hard to create it. Not that I want it of course, but I do need to inderstand the practicalities of the tools on offer and with this one I can't really.

[davegee]

Barry,

Please don't take offence at this but I feel that you continue to miss a VERY important point here.

Not everyone wants or needs a pro camera and its 20+ Mp resolution. You cannot test a feature or a theory with a camera which has 6000x4000 resolution and say that it applies to all cameras on the market.

So, if Igor introduces a feature which helps a user with a camera with less resolution then those of you who write tutorials need to take this into account?

It seems that you don't need to use this feature but your opening comments refered to the fact that you sat down to write a tutorial on this feature.

If your camera with its 25% more resolution than mine doesn't need this feature then that's great but it seems obvious to me that if you used a archived image out of one of your much older cameras in a PTE show this feature could be of great help to you.

Keep up the good work.

DG

[Ken Cox]

Don't know Ken - never tried that.

I wouldn't advocate using the TV to test anything like this. It is OK for showing PTE EXE files (when the colour settings are NEUTRAL) but when editing I use a Computer Monitor - not a TV or a projector.

DG

Well Dave

the tv is more apt to be dead on for colour -- i have never adjusted the colour since it was set up - -you guys are dickin with your monitor all the time -look back in the threads - the monitor settings do not do the printing

different strokes for different folks

ken

and

it is the big picture where you see faults like shimmer --- when i first started out i always put picts up to the crt -256 lines resolution to see what i could get away with

[davegee]

Steady on Ken!!

My IIYAMA 24" is using the same settings now as when it was taken out of the box.

Never needed any further setting - I don't print.

As I said I've never connected my laptop to my TV for anything other than showing PTE EXE files or MP4 files.

I have, however, shown my PTE EXE files and MP4 files on OTHER PEOPLES TVs and found that they looked absolutely terrible until I shifted the colour back from in-your-face ULTRA VIVID theatre to natural.

"different strokes for different folks" - dead right!!

You might well be right about larger screens (and larger resolutions) being more susceptible to shimmering - something to investigate?

DG

[davegee]

Igor,

Thanks for Beta 19.

It is difficult to judge without seeing 18 and 19 side by side but the latest version certainly gives the impression of being sharper with better contrast and definition when viewing the same project.

Well done!!

DG

[Igor]

Dave,

Previous beta versions had a mistake.

"Sharper/Smoother" parameter for image objects was "0" by default. Now since Beta 19 new image objects (or projects saved in 6.5 and earlier) will have "Sharper/Smoother" parameter set to "-100". I'll explain what it means in my following post today later. Barry's post above helped me discover this problem.

Also memory usage was reduced in two times in Beta 19 in many cases. This is noticeable in projects with heavy slides.

[Igor]

We have two diametrical problems with image quality - blurring or aliasing/shimmering.

Version 6.5 and old versions

By default version 6.5 and earlier versions provide more sharp picture but you can also observe aliasing of fine details on static images and strong shimmering/moire during animation. These effects depend on pixel size of source images and screen resolution of displays. The more large image (more megapixels) you use the more moire/aliasing you see. So one user can observe this problem, while another user (with a different display) will not see any problem.

Version 6.5 suggests "Anti-shimmering (mipmapping)" option (turned off by default)which completely removes moire and aliasing, but it also removes fine details. Picture looks blured.

See this small demo:

http://www.wnsoft.com/files/test/pte-658-quality-test.exe

Version 7.0

Since version 7.0 (and especially Beta 19) I developed and used another solution. And even by default you see picture with same fine details as in previous versions. But this picture almost doesn't have a moire problem or aliasing problem.

You can slightly affect to image quality changing "Sharper/Smoother" parameter in the Objects and animation editor. I recommend to set -100 (minus 100). This is default value since Beta 19. You need not care about this parameter in common cases. I hope that it's best solution for image quality. Sometimes if you discover a rare case of moire (especially if you add oversharpened image) you can change this parameter to "0" or even (plus) "128".

See the demo:

http://www.wnsoft.com/files/test/pte-700b19-quality-test.exe

Additionally you can apply unsharp mask for entire screen since version 7.0 This option vastly increases visual sharpness of picture. This option should not cause moire problem.

[Ken Cox]

IGOR

first could not see it so put up on the tv

-- wow trees in the top were like they had an earth thumper [used in geo thermal exploration] beside them

i then came back to monitor and knew where to look

ken

[kosheyar]

what's its folder's name?

pte 7.0 beta 18

os= winXP SP3

[davegee]

"You can slightly affect to image quality changing "Sharper/Smoother" parameter in the Objects and animation editor. I recommend to set -100 (minus 100). This is default value since Beta 19. You need not care about this parameter in common cases. I hope that it's best solution for image quality. Sometimes if you discover a rare case of moire (especially if you add oversharpened image) you can change this parameter to "0" or even (plus) "128"."

Igor,

I'm confused by this statement - I expected to see the slider set at -100 for new objects?

It is still set at zero.

Or are you saying that minus 100 in Beta 18 = Zero in Beta 19?

If I want an image to look exactly the same as when I saved it as a JPEG in my software of choice what setting should I use?

DG

[xahu34]

... You can slightly affect to image quality changing "Sharper/Smoother" parameter in the Objects and animation editor. I recommend to set -100 (minus 100). This is default value since Beta 19 ...

A question and a remark:

Which value for "Sharper/Smoother" guarantees that in case (say) where screen, slide, and image all have the same size (e.g. 1920x1080) that PTE presents the image just as it is (provided that all animation parameters are set to 0)?

The "Sharper/Smoother" parameter may lead to some confusion: The standard value (-100) is not located in the middle of the scale, and the value itself (-100) may look odd in some users' eyes

Regards,

Xaver

[Barry Beckham]

Barry,

Please don't take offence at this but I feel that you continue to miss a VERY important point here.

Not everyone wants or needs a pro camera and its 20+ Mp resolution. You cannot test a feature or a theory with a camera which has 6000x4000 resolution and say that it applies to all cameras on the market.

So, if Igor introduces a feature which helps a user with a camera with less resolution then those of you who write tutorials need to take this into account?

It seems that you don't need to use this feature but your opening comments refered to the fact that you sat down to write a tutorial on this feature.

If your camera with its 25% more resolution than mine doesn't need this feature then that's great but it seems obvious to me that if you used a archived image out of one of your much older cameras in a PTE show this feature could be of great help to you.

Keep up the good work.

DG

No, I am havn't taken offence, nor have I missed the point. There are many PTE users with a Canon 5D with 20 million pixels, but that isn't the pont at all. In my experience the Moire effect is what the sharper/smoother tools were designed to fix.

To see the moire effect you can use a high resolution image and squeeze that into a small slide show, and/or you can sharpen it a bit too much. So using a high resolution image, I was first expecting to generate the moire effect, then use the tool to get rid of it.

If I cannot generate the moire effect with a 6000*4000 image then I am delighted, seeing as it was hard to avoid with much smaller images only a short while ago.

[Barry Beckham]

Igor

Thank you for that explanation. I can now speak about this tool with a degree of confidence in that I know what it does. With the tests I have tried in the past few days, I don't think the Moire effect is a problem any more. I think your right in what you say that in a rare occurrence of the Moire effect, the smoother tool should deal with it.

In most demos it helps to be able to show the problem and then demonstrate a solution, but if you cannot produce the problem any more, then it ceases to be an issue.

Many thanks

[davegee]

Xaver, anyone,

When you add an image to the Slide Line (Beta 19) what does the Sharper/Smoother box read?

When I add an image it reads ZERO.

Igor's statement could be interpreted to read that it will show minus 100.

DG

[xahu34]

Dave,

If you click on the words "Sharper/Smother", the value of -100 will show up. You can click on "Save and Use by Default" in order to change the start value. Anyway, I would like to know, which parameter for "Sharper/Smother" has a zero effect in the situation I described above (post 221).

Regards,

Xaver

[davegee]

Xaver,

Thanks for that.

I agree that we need to know from Igor which setting produces ZERO EFFECT.

A large number of photographic clubs and societies now use PTE as their sole means of presenting single images in competition.

Any changes to an image wrt sharpening/smoothing would not go down very well with competitors so the person putting the project together needs to know which setting to use to produce a completely NEUTRAL result.

DG

[Barry Beckham]

Dave

I think you use templates and pte may be hanging on to that old setting prior to beta 19. I noticed the same thing when I used the structure of an old slide show to test this. The sharper smoother still showed zero untill I did a file new and cleared the memory.

[davegee]

Thanks Barry,

That could be it.

However Xaver also got it right. If an existing template has loaded clicking on the Sharper/Smoother Text resets to Igor's new default setting.

Time to save a new Template, perhaps - or leave it as it is?.

We still need to know from Igor - which setting gives a NEUTRAL effect. It looks like it is ZERO but it would be nice to have it confirmed by him.

DG

[Igor]

Sharper/Smoother parameter for Image objects:

The default value since Beta 19 is "-100". It gives same sharpness as in previous versions (default quality) but no moire.

Zero value in version 7.0 Beta gives same result as if in previous version 6.5 turn on "Mipmapping (anti-shimmering)" option.

- New projects will have "-100".

- Loaded projects (created in previous version 6.5 and earlier) also will be converted to "-100".

- Projects created in version 7.0 Beta 1-18 has "0" and I recommend change this value to "-100" manually.

[davegee]

It sounds to me as though IGOR is saying that Minus 100 is Neutral.

Agreed Xaver?

Agreed Igor?

DG

[xahu34]

It sounds to me as though IGOR is saying that Minus 100 is Neutral.

Agreed Xaver?

...

I don't know. I can't read Igor's mind

It should not be that difficult to give a definite answer.

So, once more the question:

Which value for "Sharper/Smoother" guarantees that in case (say) where screen, slide, and image all have the same size (e.g. 1920x1080) that PTE presents the image just as it is, without making it sharper or smoother (provided that all animation parameters are set to 0)?

Regards

Xaver