Changes in Slide Duration

[davegee]

Again, take a look in O&A view.

In spite of the changes that you are making in the overall timing and transition times keyframe positions are maintained. In your case that is 3 seconds.

This might not be what Igor intended but that's the reason.

P.S. You are changing TWO parameters at the same time. If you change just one parameter at a time then (to me) the logic is maintained and it is easier to understand what is happening.

DG

[Picsel]

It appears that after PC reboot, the default values for duration are 2/5 and not 2/7

but closing a project and opening a new one, the default values become 2/7 and remain up to the next reboot (or restart).

Perhaps a memory problem....

Daniel

Igor,

it seems that this specific problem is linked with clear pagefile at shutdown validated or not under XP,

if validated = 2/5 then 2/7

if not validated = always 2/7

Best regards

Daniel.

[fh1805]

Daniel,

Thank you for your detailed posts on this subject. You have identified an aspect of the changes made to Slide/Transition durations that I had not fully appreciated before. I can see great potential for confusion in the minds of new users to PTE. I should have investigated this in more detail during the beta programme but didn't because I thought I understood it. Now I see that my own understanding is incomplete. I'm going to investigate this issue today and will add further posts here later today once I see (and hopefully understand) what is happening.

Dave,

For new users of PTE, I think use of the O&A window to help explain this is likely to add still further confusion. A new user is, in my opinion, more likely to associate the O&A window with animation events rather than as the means for adding slides and controlling transitions. I think this issue (of slide/transition duration) is something that has to be explainable within the context of just the main window.

regards,

Peter

[davegee]

Peter,

We'll have to agree to disagree on that. I was only suggesting the use of the O&A for the purpose of understanding the principles involved.

Whatever timings are used, if four keyframes are added to the O&A display for demo purposes - start; end of incoming transition; start of outgoing transition; end of outgoing transition - then the effects of changing timings are easily visualised and understood.

I have noticed the "last slide/ no outgoing transition" anomaly and have learned to keep a blank slide as my temporary last slide to avoid getting into difficulties.

It depends on your methodology - different strokes for different folks (who said that recently?).

DG

[jkb]

I have read through these posts & still cannot get my head around this new method of timing. Having used PTE for years I cannot understand the need for change, the old system works perfectly, is easy to understand & is logical.

Trying to combine 2 transition times on one slide just leads to confusion. It is the incoming transition that belongs to a slide, the outgoing belongs to the next slide. Try swaping the order of two slides & you will most likely find that the existing transitions do not work as effectively & you need to amend them.

From the limited amount of testing I have done, the new system simply does not work if you move slides around, which I am sure most people will do as they build up a show. There is no problem if all the slides have the same duration & transition time, but who would want to do that - it would be incredibly boring.

I always work with the timeline to fine tune my transitions & screen times to the music & maybe this will still work in the new system. But for those who like to work by 'numbers' from the slide list view then things can quickly become a mess if you move slides. Slides end up on top of each other or else have much longer screen times than planned.

I will always switch off this new method & continue to use the existing where only the incoming transition time is included.

I give a lot of talks to Camera Clubs etc demonstrating PTE & complete beginners can easily understand the program & see how easy it is to use. They will not be able to with the new system & I can see a lot of beginners who are just getting to grips with making shows becoming totally confused with this new system.

The fact that the two parameters 'keep full time...' are buried in the menu does not help.

Another thing that I know has already confused people is the removal of the two icons for switching to full screen view. This is a very useful feature that beginners find very helpful & easy to use & it is now only available through the menu or having to remember shortcut keys.

Jill

Editor AV News

[fh1805]

After my first test I am distinctly unhappy with the current situation. I worked through the following steps:

- Create new project

- View…Advanced options…Show full slide duration and …Keep full slide duration both selected

- Project Options – Slide = 6 seconds, Effect = 2 seconds

- Add four images to Slide List

At this point the Slide List shows the slides with values 2/6; 2/6; 2/6; 2/6 (using Daniel's notation). Switching to the Timeline, we see Slide flags at 4 second intervals (with the first two seconds of each slide showing as the transition). The total show running time is given as 18 seconds.

This is NOT intuitive. The intuitive value would be 24 seconds (4 slides x 6 seconds per slide). A slightly less intuitive value would be 16 seconds (4 slides x (6 seconds per slide – 2 seconds per transition)). The actual value is neither. The time allocated to the last slide has a two second allowance for a non-existent transition to the next slide. In my humble opinion this is bad program design; and will lead to confusion for the new user.

regards,

Peter

[Ken Cox]

DAVE

think it was me

people should have a text editor open and make notes and with every change and

ONLY MAKE ONE CHANGE AT A TIME TILL YOU BECOME AN EXPERT

-- do a save as of the pte with a different name after each change -- use common sense -- the pte is the most important part of the process - yet its size is minuscule in comparison to the whole project

just remember "PATIENCE IS A VIRTUE"

KEN

[davegee]

I will always switch off this new method & continue to use the existing where only the incoming transition time is included.

After my first test I am distinctly unhappy with the current situation. I worked through the following steps:

- Create new project

- View…Advanced options…Show full slide duration and …Keep full slide duration both selected

- Project Options – Slide = 6 seconds, Effect = 2 seconds

- Add four images to Slide List

At this point the Slide List shows the slides with values 2/6; 2/6; 2/6; 2/6 (using Daniel's notation). Switching to the Timeline, we see Slide flags at 4 second intervals (with the first two seconds of each slide showing as the transition). The total show running time is given as 18 seconds.

This is NOT intuitive. The intuitive value would be 24 seconds (4 slides x 6 seconds per slide). A slightly less intuitive value would be 16 seconds (4 slides x (6 seconds per slide – 2 seconds per transition)). The actual value is neither. The time allocated to the last slide has a two second allowance for a non-existent transition to the next slide. In my humble opinion this is bad program design; and will lead to confusion for the new user.

regards,

Peter

This thread has been running since 11th June and many have tried the new arrangements and given their views, some for some against.

I have always taken the view that if Igor says something is necessary to progress the software then it IS necessary to progress.

The beauty of what he has done is that you can still work in the old fashioned way if you prefer.

I have never switched the old method on and I'm now very comfortable with the new system.

DG

[fh1805]

If by "switched the old method on" is meant using View...Advanced Options to untick the "Show full Slide Duration" and "Keep full Slide Duration" options then this does not turn the old method back on. I agree, that with the two options unticked, the transition and slide durations associated with each slide remain fixed no matter how you move the slides around in the Slide List. However, having just changed those values on the test sequence mentioned in my previous post, the total elapsed time is still showing as 18 seconds. No matter which way I try and approach this, the displayed numbers do not add up to an intuitive total. I set my slide time at 6 seconds per slide. I set two seconds of that to be the incoming transition time. I expect the total sequence time for four slides to be 4 x 6 = 24 seconds - and it isn't. It's 18 seconds. That, for a new user, is going to be very confusing!

Peter

[davegee]

Peter,

You would either START a new project with these options on or off. Switching in the middle of a project is going to give you problems.

If, with those options OFF, I start a new project with 3/9 settings then 4 slides equates to 36 seconds.

DG

[fh1805]

Dave,

Thanks for that point of clarification. Methinks I need to build a new master Template with all the options properly set.

regards,

Peter

[Barry Beckham]

I am sure that we all work very differently in PTE

Either that or I am daft, but I can't see any issues with the slide timing and it doesn't effect what I am doing in the slightest.

I didn't care too much when Igor moved the Time Line/Slide List buttons to the bottom right, but I have now got used to it.

[Picsel]

At this point the Slide List shows the slides with values 2/6; 2/6; 2/6; 2/6 (using Daniel's notation). Switching to the Timeline, we see Slide flags at 4 second intervals (with the first two seconds of each slide showing as the transition). The total show running time is given as 18 seconds.

This is NOT intuitive.

regards,

Peter

Hi Peter,

first of all, thank you, for the time you spent understanding my "complicated" post, I have really appreciated your comment and concern for beginners.

In your post, I agree with you, 18s is not very intuitive but can be explainable to beginners and understandable following the rules which apply with the new method, and having a look on the timeline things becomes clearer.

But discrepancies and inconsistencies I ve raised in my previous post are neither explainable neither understandable.

Dave

I am not against the new method but in favour of KISS and that is not the case!

Yes I should be able to change several parameters at the same time with "project options" every PTE user do that a lot of times!

It should not result of that some discrepancies with the main rule. I am sure you can manage with that but it is not the right way.

You said to Peter :

"

Peter,

You would either START a new project with these options on or off. Switching in the middle of a project is going to give you problems.....

Yes you are right and there is no problem for all members of this forum who participate to beta tests because as you, they know the trap, but it is very confusing for beginners and that is the reason why we suggested to Igor to move these two options in main tab of Projetc options.

I think it is not a good advice to say Igor : let things as it is today we can manage.....

Igor is able to analyze the situation and take the right decision for PTE. A customer who pay for a service has no patience!

....The fact that the two parameters 'keep full time...' are buried in the menu does not help.

Another thing that I know has already confused people is the removal of the two icons for switching to full screen view. This is a very useful feature that beginners find very helpful & easy to use & it is now only available through the menu or having to remember shortcut keys.

.....

Jill

I full agree with that.

Daniel

[davegee]

Daniel,

You have taken a remark of mine out of context, just as Peter did when I suggested that looking at the O&A screen gave a better understanding of what was happening.

In your case - I merely suggested that if you altered the parameters one at a time it would give you a better understanding of what was happening.

By all means set more than one parameter at once - AFTER you have understood the implications of what you are doing.

I agree that making the options more "visible" would help.

DG

P.S. Anyone read page 16 of the V7 User's Guide?

[jkb]

DG Page 16 of the User Guide states -

'Options Show and Keep full slide duration are set by default, but you can uncheck them.

Option Show full slide duration shows the slide duration itself and the duration of transition effect for the next slide.

Option Keep slide duration is helpful if the slides in your slideshow have different duration and while changing their places, their duration is not changeable.'

This does NOT tell a new user that the two options should be used in conjunction with each other & in fact suggests that they can be used independently.

As Peter has said the timings are just not intuitive.

Add 4 slides with 2 sec transition & 5 sec screen time. What you see on the screen (slide view) is 5secs in the bottom right of each image. This suggests a total time of 20secs whereas it is actually 14 secs. If you remove the 8secs of transition times that works out at 12secs. So the actual 14secs is illogical.

The main problem is with the last slide which is given an extra 2secs of additional time for a non existent outgoing transition. If you increase the transition time of this slide to say 4secs so as to give the 1sec screen time that the other slides have, or reduce the duration to 3secs, so again keeping the actual 1 sec of screen time. If you then add another slide to the end, or move this last slide to another position you will find that transitions overlap.

Now that the timings are shown on the slide it would make far more sense to have to the duration independent of any transition time. If I remember correctly this is how the very early versions of PTE used to be.

If this new method is to work it needs to set the last slide to exclude the non existent outgoing transition & the two Options need to be linked so that one cannot be used without the other. Setting one & not the other ends up in disaster!

Igor has said the reason for this new method of timing is to do with video, but I cannot see why that has any effect. A video clip is just another object and timings need to be set appropriately for any object so that it has the effect on screen that you wish. Just because a video clip is 20secs long does not mean that your slide time has to be 20secs, it can be longer or shorter & the video clip can fade in and/or out just as any other object would.

As I said earlier a Transition is linked to a slide, you Customise an individual slide to have the incoming transition that you want to achieve a particular effect on screen. The outgoing transition is nothing to do with that slide & neither should the time.

Jill

Editor AV News

[davegee]

You have to read all of the video related problems which led to Igor's decision.

I am NOT defending or advocating the new system - I am working with it!!

I have merely pointed out the reasons for the supposed "anomalies". These become non-anomalies if you fully understand what is happening.

There is always the option of turning OFF both switches and creating your standard template as Peter suggested.

OR - petition Igor for the OFF position to be the DEFAULT.

As my grand-son used to tell me - "It's not rocket science".

DG

[nobeefstu]

Maybe the attached example image will show some new light in how the total slideshow playback duration calculation works. Its not just a matter of adding slide numbers to get the total slideshow playback duration.

With Enabled Show Full Slide Duration view ... you also have to subtract the Effects Duration totals from the Full Slide Duration totals to reflect the actual slideshow playback duration. At first use/glance the enabled calculations may seem misleading or confusing until you understand the concept.

Ive used the Welcome Demo.pte file as an example. The actual slideshow playback duration is 32 seconds no matter what enabled/disabled view you select ... which is correct.

* I believe the settings for the new Show Full Slide Duration is properly attached to the menu because currently its only a program setting and not a Project Option on per a project file basis.

[xahu34]

... With Enabled Show Full Slide Duration view ... you also have to subtract the Effects Duration totals from the Full Slide Duration totals to reflect the actual slideshow playback duration ...

Not quite correct: You have to subtract all but the first one!

Regards,

Xaver

[davegee]

Isn't it easier to read it off the timeline?

DG

[Lin Evans]

I don't believe it's working correctly guys.

If you place two slides into the slide list, set the custom time for each to 10 seconds and set the transition to "quick, no transition," the total display time "should" be 20 seconds. Instead the total display time is 18 seconds.

Best regards,

Lin

[xahu34]

... If you place two slides into the slide list, set the custom time for each to 10 seconds and set the transition to "quick, no transition," the total display time "should" be 20 seconds. Instead the total display time is 18 seconds ...

This behavior sounds odd, but it isn't. You specify two actions at the same time (change of duration, change of transition time). These actions seem to be processed sequentially, but the actions are not commutative. If you first change the durations, and then the transition time, the result must be 18 (provided that the old transition time is 2). If you do it the other way round, the time will be 20

This effect is another reason for me to keep on working with the old system (regarding slide duration).

Regards,

Xaver

[Lin Evans]

You're right - it indeed does work that way. That could be very confusing. Saving, closing and reopening between changing the durations and the effects seem to put things in proper order, but it seems there should be a way to program around this or it "could" get complicated.

Best regards,

Lin

[aplman]

In previous versions of PTE, "slide duration" included the incoming transition time, but not the outgoing transition time.

Now in Version 7.0, we have the option to choose whether or not the outgoing transition time is included as well.

A third possibility would be that "slide duration" would mean the time the slide is fully visible, exclusive of transitions. We do not have that option yet, but to me, it seems the most natural, the cleanest, the most sensible way. If that option was implemented, I would use PTE that way all the time. If I remember rightly from my unhappy experience of ProShow Gold, that is the Photodex way. (That is the ONLY thing I prefer about ProShow - PTE wins hands down otherwise!).

Now that the wonderful WnSoft designers and programmers have given us two ways of specifying "slide duration", COULD WE PLEASE have that that third way implemented?

The Slide List display would then show transition times and pure slide times separately and exclusively. All displayed times would be independent, and all would add up to the total show time. Changing a transition time would have no effect on slide duration. That would be a neat way to work, and my preferred way.

Igor, thank you for considering this.

Ken Travers (APLman)

[nobeefstu]

Lin,

You're right - it indeed does work that way. That could be very confusing. Saving, closing and reopening between changing the durations and the effects seem to put things in proper order, but it seems there should be a way to program around this or it "could" get complicated.

Best regards,

Lin

I totally aggree with you. The proper results are not always displayed or updated while working ... only when saved and reopened will you be sure of the true displayed values. Even the mini player total value is not updated properly to reflect the timeline total value when removing slides. The Timeline seems to be the only view that properly keeps you informed of whats happening.

Igor needs to address this issue for the current opened document in realtime. I personally prefer to continue to use the old method ... even if Igor corrects the issue.

[Aginum]

Ideally, in my opinion is that PTE offers the same choices as Adobe Premiere:

1. Transition center

2. Transition at the start

3. Transition at the end