Changes in Slide Duration

[Picsel]

I don't believe it's working correctly guys.

If you place two slides into the slide list, set the custom time for each to 10 seconds and set the transition to "quick, no transition," the total display time "should" be 20 seconds. Instead the total display time is 18 seconds.

Best regards,

Lin

Hi Lin

you are perfectly right, that was the reason why I suggested in my previous post (here) that all these problems could have a common origin with a memory effect. It seems (i am not sure at all) that the 2s effect duration value by default is either added, either substracted. In any case something to be fix.

Daniel

[xahu34]

... all these problems could have a common origin with a memory effect. It seems (i am not sure at all) that the 2s effect duration value by default is either added, either substracted ...

I don't think that in Lin's example we have (what you call) a memory effect. Lin specified two actions (change of 2 slide durations, change of corresponding effect duration) in parallel, and then he started both with a single click (OK button). In the new slide duration model, the result of these two actions depends on their schedule. The commutative property we had in the old concept has gone. This is not a real problem. To me, it has been clear from the beginning that the new concept would be the origin of trouble. In this example, we see a "nice" side effect which I would regard as system immanent or inbuilt. We should regard it as a feature

Regards,

Xaver

[davegee]

Guys,

I can see your points.

There are three ways of acheiving a change of slide duration and effect duration in Customize.

1. Slide Duration first followed by Effect Duration

2. Effect Duration followed by Slide Duration

3. Both at the same time

Logically there is an argument that each gives the correct result but the fact that they give DIFFERENT results is confusing.

DG

P.S. Is it significant that #1 and #3 produce the same result?

[fh1805]

Guys,

This code is riddled with bugs and anomalies. Try this one.

- Set View Advanced Options Show full Slide Duration and Keep full Slide Duration both to be ticked

- Set Slide Duration to 4 seconds in Project Options Main

- Set Effect Duration to 1.5 seconds in Project Options Effects

- OK these changes

- File New

- Ctrl+click select two images from the File List panel

- Drag these into the Slide List area

- Note the transition times, durations and total duration values that are displayed

- Note also that both images in the Slide List are still selected (highlighted)

- Click on the Customize Slide button (noting that the pop-up window shows "(2)" slides are being processed at the same time)

- Change the Slide Duration to 5 seconds and the Effect to be a "Quick"

- Before clicking OK, decide in your own mind what values should now be displayed against each slide in the Slide List for Slide Duration and Effect duration; and what the total show time should be.

I get Slide 1 duration = 3.5 seconds, Slide 2 duration = 5 seconds; both transitions = 0 seconds; total sequence time = 8 seconds.

All logic says the answers should 5 and 5 = 10. This code is buggy and needs urgent attention from Igor and team or else we are going to be spending hours trying to explain the inexplicable to both new and existing users of this version of PTE.

regards,

Peter

[davegee]

Peter,

It is the same problem.

I think, if you look very closely, what seems to be happening is that when you try my options three or one the incoming transition is being removed and subtracted from the FIRST slide to be modified in any situation.

What it SHOULD do is to first set the transition time to zero and then set the Slide Duration to whatever you want it to be. Or alt least that's the way my logic works.

Please try my option two on your figures and see what you get.

DG

[fh1805]

Dave,

If I try your option two and make the changes with just one click on the OK button under Customize Slide, I get the same result that I got before (3.5 + 5 = 8)

If I follow your option two but click OK after the Effect change and then re-select the two slides and do the Slide Duration change I get what I would expect (5 + 5 = 10).

Whether I do A before B or B before A, whether I do A and B under just one click on the OK button or under two separate clicks on the OK button, the end result should always be the same - and it isn't! This is a bug - QED!

Whichever way I look at it, this code is not "fit for purpose". Igor has to address this matter - and urgently. We need a bug-fix release and I think that it should go through formal beta testing by ourselves. We, each of us, have identified various anomalies. We now know the tests we would want to apply to that bug-fix version whilst it was in beta.

regards,

Peter

[xahu34]

Dave is right. As I said above. The result depends on the way the two actions are scheduled, that's all. The question is: Who should tell the program which action (change of slide durations, change of effect duration) is to be taken first. The decision may depend on the user. The one proposed by Dave seems to be the more likely one, but one cannot be sure! We may compare the situation with actions on a geometrical object. Option 1: Paint it red! Option 2: Paint it blue! If the user is allowed to set both options, what will happen if the program is forced to do both actions? The object cannot be red and blue at the same time!

The new duration model is odd!

Regards,

Xaver

[davegee]

The advice to everyone, at this point in time, seems to be that you should keep the two Slide Duration options unticked unless there is an overiding reason (involving video) to keep them on. Also, whichever mode you start with should be continued for the duration of the project.

Secondly, when making alterations to Slide and Effect Durations and the two options are ticked, it would seem to be advisable to:

a. Do them one at a time

and

b. Make changes to the Effects Duration before making changes to the Slide Duration (for individual slides).

Otherwise unintended results COULD occur.

Meantime it would great if Igor could make some kind of comment?

DG

[fh1805]

My understanding of this subject is now as follows:

View...Advanced Options...Show full slide duration

- If this value is unticked, then the times displayed, in the Slide List, for the transition duration and the slide duration, will be exactly those which we have specified via Project Options, as amended by any changes we made via Customize Slide. To those of us with experience of versions of PTE earlier than v7, this is how it always used to be.

- If this value is ticked, then the slide duration (in the lower right corner of each thumbnail in the Slide List) will include the duration of the transition into the next slide

For example:

Slide duration set at 4 seconds and transition duration set at 1.5 seconds

- Unticked = 1.5 top left, 4.0 bottom right

- Ticked = 1.5 top left, 5.5 bottom right

View...Advanced Options...Keep full slide duration

This option determines how PTE behaves if you "drag and drop" or "cut and paste" a slide from its present position in the Slide List to a new position; for example move slide #2 to a position between slides #4 and #5.

- If this value is unticked, PTE behaves as it always did. The transition duration into the next slide is not included as part of the move.

- If this value is ticked, the duration of the transition into the next slide is included as part of the move – and thus the entire timing and synchronization from that point onwards has the potential to change unexpectedly.

Unless you are including video clips or are building complicated animations, it will probably be best to untick both options under View...Advanced Options.

If I have got any of that wrong, please let me know and I will edit this post. I intend to use the text of this post to create a new FAQ but want the information in that FAQ to be correct and to have been verified.

regards,

Peter

[Picsel]

Peter

1) If "Keep total slide duration" is ticked at the very beginning of one project => new method

in this case if "Show the total slide duration" is ticked then the value on the thumbnail should be equal to the slide duration (including effect) = duration specified

and if "Show the total slide duration" is unticked then the value on the thumbnail should be equal to the slide duration specified - effect duration

2) If "Keep total slide duration" is unticked at the very beginning of one project => old method

in this case if "Show the total slide duration" is ticked then the value on the thumbnail should be equal to the slide duration specified + effect duration

and if "Show the total slide duration" is unticked then the value on the thumbnail should be equal to the slide duration specified as it was earlier in v6.5

But unfortunatly, today there are some incoherencies (to be fixed) depending on the actions (refer to our discussion above)

Daniel

[davegee]

Peter,

Before posting an FAQ would it be wise to keep trying to get a comment off Igor?

I can see no logic in the situation and it would appear that, under certain circumstances, a "bug" has been identified.

When making changes to two slides at the same time the changes made to the second slide are logical.

I can't see any logic in the changes being made to the first slide.

We need a comment from Igor.

DG

[Igor]

Excuse me for late response. I really need more time to read all comments and prepare my suggestions.

[xahu34]

... I can't see any logic in the changes being made to the first slide ...

In my opinion, it is quite logical: In the new model, whenever you change the (incoming) effect duration of slide n, you have a side effect on the duration of slide n-1. Example: Reduce the effect duration of slide n by 1 sec then the overall duration of slide n-1 will be reduced by 1, as well. So, if you look an Lin's example: There are two slides linked by a transition of 2 sec. You highlight both of them, set their slide durations to 10 sec, and set the effect times to zero. PTE now seems to change the slide durations first: Both slides then have new (intermediate) duration times of 10 sec, having in mind that during this procedure they still have an overlapping time of 2 sec. Then, in the second step, PTE changes the effect durations (to zero). As a consequence of the side effect (described above) the duration of the first slide is then reduced to 8 sec. It's logical, isn't it!

Regards,

Xaver

[davegee]

Totally disagree Xaver!

Example:

10 second slide with 2 second transition - 2 slides.

2 seconds - 8 seconds - 2 seconds - 8 seconds.

Use customize slide and ask it to change the slide duration to 10 (no change) and effect duration to to zero for both slides.

The result is:

Zero - 8 seconds - Zero - 10 seconds.

I asked for two slides with 10 seconds Slide Duration and Zero seconds Effect Duration!

Not logical.

I would expect the first slide to have its effect duration decreased to zero whilst maintaining the Slide Duration at 10 seconds - that's what I asked for.

If I set my Durations at 10 and zero and then add two slides that's what I get - two slides with 10 second slide duration and Zero effects.

You must agree that there is an inconsistency and therefore a lack of logic.

I totally understand the principles that Igor has tried to put in place but it falls down when changes are made and the results are not as expected.

DG

[xahu34]

... I asked for two slides with 10 seconds Slide Duration and Zero seconds Effect Duration ...

Of course, it would be possible to make you happy! The obvious solution would be, that a change of the effect duration of slide n would no longer imply a change of the slide duration of slide n-1. As a consequence, a simple change of a single effect duration would cause a shift of (possibly lots of) transition points. I don't think that we would like this feature!

Regards,

Xaver

[aplman]

If "Slide Duration" meant just the pure slide time (i.e. excluding the transition times), as I have previously suggested, would not all these problems disappear? And explaining to new users would be simple.

Ken T (APLman)

[davegee]

Xaver,

I can see what is happening and there is a certain logic behind it.

If keyframes were attached then the keyframes at the end of the incoming transition and beginning of the outgoing transition would be preserved when changing from a 4 second effect to a quick effect. The keyframes at the beginning of the incoming transition and end of the outgoing transition would then show as being in error (in red).

There is also logic in this which I can understand.

Where it all falls down for me is when applying these changes in a different order produces differing results. When applying two changes in the same custom operation the logic gets a little blurred.

As I said above, if I alter the effect to quick in a custom operation and leave the slide time at 10 sec (in a 4/10 slide) it can be agued that what I am asking for is a 10 second slide with no effect but what I get is a 6 second slide.

The logic in this is confused/confusing.

DG

[fh1805]

If "Slide Duration" meant just the pure slide time (i.e. excluding the transition times), as I have previously suggested, would not all these problems disappear? And explaining to new users would be simple.

Ken T (APLman)

Ken,

The longer this discussion has gone on the more I am coming round to your way of thinking.

Here's a suggested solution:

- Slide Duration = the time that the slide is fully visible excluding all time spent in the transitions

- Transition duration = the time that the transition effect takes to complete

- Each slide can, at the users discretion have one or both of its transitions "locked" to it.

- If this slide is then moved, the locked transition goes with it and replaces the existing transition at the new place in the sequence. At the old place in the sequence a default transition is added to fill the gap.

- If the traansition being replaced is also a locked transition, PTE must warn the user and not commit the change without the express permission of the user.

- In the Slide List display, show the transition as a "mini-thumbnail" between the slides - with a different colour or a "chain" icon to denote a locked transition

This would give us the total control that we need to maintain creativity in respect of transitions that overlay video clips or animation. We would know that we had moved a slide and that we had, therefore, to check the effect at both its new location and its old location.

And it would, hopefully, be very simple to explain to new users.

Would this be more complicated to program? I don't know. But in my long experience in the IT industry, computer programmers were paid to solve difficult problems - and the best ones really enjoyed the challenge of doing just that.

regards,

Peter

[davegee]

Ken/Peter,

Surely you already have everything that you are suggesting in the "original" mode i.e. both options turned OFF in View/Advanced?

How would your suggestions affect the original problems which caused Igor to introduce this mode i.e. problems with video (cutting off too soon I think)?

Igor has indicated that he is investigating and that it is a complicated problem.

Let's await his findings.

DG

[fh1805]

Dave,

In post #1 Igor talks about the overlap of the video playback and the two transitions. In my suggested solution, a slide that was based on a video clip could have both transitions automatically locked to it. That would then preserve this behaviour if the slide got moved within the sequence.

I have agreed, during this long discussion that, for me (who uses no video and has no camera capable of video), turning off the Show... and Keep... options returns PTE to its old way of working. But that isn't going to be an option that is appropriate for everybody. Speaking as someone who answers an awful lot of questions about PTE (both on and off this forum), I see a need to keep everything as simple and easy for the user as possible - especially the new user. Anything that either causes confusion or is difficult to understand and explain should be addressed and amended. As the posts above make clear - there is great scope for confusion with the behaviour of the code as it presently stands.

I agree that we need to await Igor's findings; but there's nothing wrong with making suggestions, is there?

regards,

Peter

[Picsel]

Peter

I am not in favour to lock a transition with a slide, because moving a slide to another place and you could have to modify the transition, I think, in such a case, it could be simpler for the PTE user to specify a new transition if he needs it. For me slide and transition (effect) should be independent (if total transition duration is longer than slide duration that is the fault of PTE user and not the fault of PTE but an error message could help), I agree with what Jill said in a previous post.

...........A video clip is just another object and timings need to be set appropriately for any object so that it has the effect on screen that you wish. Just because a video clip is 20secs long does not mean that your slide time has to be 20secs, it can be longer or shorter & the video clip can fade in and/or out just as any other object would.

As I said earlier a Transition is linked to a slide, you Customise an individual slide to have the incoming transition that you want to achieve a particular effect on screen. The outgoing transition is nothing to do with that slide & neither should the time....

Daniel

[xahu34]

I would regard Peter's suggestion (transitions with a locking mechanism) as a possible way, but I would regard it as complicated and (as we would call it in German) over-organized.

Another way to go (which is free from unwanted side effects) would be (as suggested by Ken T and Daniel) a kind of separation of transitions and slides. Here, a possible disadvantage may arise: If you change the duration of a transition, you will cause a shift of all later transition points, or, you have an automatic change of the corresponding slide duration (this would bring us near to the old model).

I am still fond of the old model that we had until version 6.x, and I like the remark of Jill K B from September 15 (post #91): "As I said earlier a Transition is linked to a slide, you Customise an individual slide to have the incoming transition that you want to achieve a particular effect on screen. The outgoing transition is nothing to do with that slide & neither should the time."

Regards,

Xaver

[davegee]

In addition to anything that Igor finds and/or chooses to alter, I would still be in favour of petitioning him to make the original mode the default and this new mode, if it is still necessary for catering for video anomalies, to be accessible when required through the View/ Advanced Menu.

The original mode has served us well and does not need replacing or "improving" to any great degree.

The new mode is not there as a replacement for the original mode and is certainly not, in the eyes of everyone who has posted here, an improvement over the original mode.

It is there to be used when the video problem occurs - so if it is not required stay with the old method and save yourselves all this anguish.

DG

[aplman]

Ken/Peter,

Surely you already have everything that you are suggesting in the "original" mode i.e. both options turned OFF in View/Advanced?

DG

No, alas, not so. With both options turned off, the duration shown on the slide includes the incoming transition.

Ken T (APLman)

[davegee]

Ken,

It's been like that for as long as I can remember.

I don't think anyone has suggested changing it before?

If you are suggesting that the transitions should not be included in what I will now call the new MODE 2 then yes, if it also satisfies Igor's needs with regard to video problems, I would go along with that.

The caveat/proviso is that I need to see both the incoming and outgoing transitions in the O&A timeline when working on individual slides in order to place Keyframes inside those incoming and outgoing transitions.

DG