Changes in Slide Duration

[jkb]

One thing though - Igor has (I think) put out TWO V7.0.1 Betas - have you got the most recent?

DG

Dave, Yes I have the most recent. As I said I downloaded it as a separate version. So I have V7.0, V7.0.1 first beta & V7.0.1 2nd beta all as separate versions.

I will try it again on my laptop - Vista, later this evening. On that I allowed the betas to overwrite V7. So I just have the one version. As it 'appeared' to work on that last night, maybe it has something to do with the way it was loaded. Or maybe just a difference between XP & Vista - who knows!!

Jill

[Big Kev]

Hi all,

I have been sitting on the sidelines sadly watching the letters going red and the font increasing in size - and in my humble view the answer is simple - if he wishes to, then let Igor sort it all out or just don't promote the use of version 7.

Yes, we who have been around pte for a long, long, long time know and can usually sort out ways of working with or around whatever new features are incorporated into the program. Beta testers are often useful and can flag up potential user problems... but that is all they can do. It is then up to the person designing the program to decide just how he wants the user interface and program to behave.

I personally don't use or even look at the slide timings, preferring to give them all a set time....and then using the timeline and the music track to place the images and the dissolves/effects where and for how long I want.

However, with respect, there has to be something wrong when the long time experts are becoming confused.

So for what is a relatively unimportant problem, maybe it is time for Igor to think about stepping back to the working practices and user interface that were in place in earlier less confusing versions...and then work out how best to proceed.

When we go around to clubs demonstrating pte and just how easy it is to use as I shall be doing on Thursday - the last thing I want at the back of my mind is the doubt that maybe now it isn't!!!

John

The older, 'less tolerant' and grumpy Editor of AV News

[davegee]

John,

When Igor gets back "in a couple of days" I have asked that he pay special attention to the bug that I think that Jill and I have identified in V7.0.1.

Unfortunately, he published V7.0.1 last Friday (?) and to the best of my knowledge is not aware that there is a problem.

DG

[Igor]

I published updated v7.0.1 BETA today. Please find my comment and download link here:

[fh1805]

I have just downloaded and installed this latest v7.0.1 beta over the top of my previous v7.0.1 beta - and the setting of "Keep full slide duration" is now remembered across a stop-start of PTE. With it unticked the behaviour of the code seems to be exactly the same as v6.5.

Well done, Igor!

regards,

Peter

[Igor]

I think it's a normal situation when developers are trying to find better ways to improve a software product. Sometimes we're successful in new findings, sometimes we couldn't predict flaws in a new design. With your help and we can discover our mistakes and fix them. As I told in another topic, we reverted to the old slide timing in version 7.0.1.

Jill,

Two examples when the new slide duration mode works better than old mode:

1. Add one photo (1st slide). Add video clip (2nd slide). Add several photos (3,4,5 slides) and set different transition effect durations for them. Now move 2nd slide (video clip) to another place in the slide list. You can see that this video clip will cropped or will stop earlier during playback if you use old slide duration mode. New system doesn't have this problem.

2. You have several slides. 2nd slide has several objects with complex animation with several keypoints at different time points. You designed keypoints of this slide for exactly 10 seconds. Now if you move this slide to another place in the list list only with the new time mode this slide will be rightly shown in your project.

I saw many AV shows where authors used complex animation for certain slides. How difficult to re-arrange these slides in the old versions! You need to correct slide duration manually after moving of slides. New time mode in version 7.0.0 automatically take care for this issue. It simply works.

So I regret that new time mode was not welcomed due to another workflow + temporal bugs.

I will prepare two sample projects to illustrate these cases.

[jkb]

Igor,

I am sorry but I have to disagree.

1. Adding video with the old timings works perfectly, the video runs to the end & is not cropped. Moving it to another position has no effect. A 20sec video stays at 20sec no matter where it is placed.

However with the new timings the end of the video is cropped by the next incoming transition.

2. With a slide having complex animation (& I have made several AV's with some very complex animation in v6.5)

The old timings work perfectly, you can move the slide & the timings stay as expected, even when an animation overlaps onto the next slide. So a keypoint is on the grey part for the next slide.

However again with the new system, moving a slide with animation & the timings are not preserved.

So the old system works the new does not.

Jill

[Igor]

Jill,

Thanks for your reply!

Adding video with the old timings works perfectly, the video runs to the end & is not cropped. Moving it to another position has no effect. A 20sec video stays at 20sec no matter where it is placed.

1. If you add video clip to the slide list, slide also will same duration as its video clips. Both have 20 seconds. After moving of this slide to another position, the slide will has different total duration (because of next transition effect). So the total slide duration can be 18 seconds or 22 seconds. It can be strange behaviour of the program for new users.

This problem occurs only with old timing system.

2. Same for slides with complex animation. It's possible to put keypoints for objects on grey part of next transition effect. You rightly said. But after moving of a slide, this slide will obtain another transition effect with different duration. If you placed several keypoints on the area of next transition effect (3 seconds for example) animation may look wrong if transition effect will be 5 seconds. You can not easily move slides in the slide list with old timing system.

[Igor]

Sample project to illustrate problems with old timing system

1. I've added one video clip to the slide list and two photos with different transition effect durations:

http://www.wnsoft.com/files/test/timing-system/Video-New-Timing.exe

2. Using old timing mode (6.5 or 7.0.1 with disabled option "Keep full slide duration") I've moved 1st slide with the video clip to a position between 2nd and 3rd slides. Here is a result:

http://www.wnsoft.com/files/test/timing-system/Video-Old-Timing-AfterMoving.exe

You can clearly observe the problem I've described above.

This problem will not occur if you use new timing system (7.0.0).

Source files of this project:

http://www.wnsoft.com/files/test/timing-system/Video.zip (4 MB)

[jkb]

Igor,

I can see the effect you describe, but this does NOT happen with the old timings on my pc but DOES happen using the new timings.

The old system works perfectly no matter where you move the video/animations. Also you can change the following effect durations without altering the ending of the video or animation.

Could you possibly post the PTE file so we can try out the effects ourselves. Using a small video or animation.

Thanks

Jill

[xahu34]

Animations do not always behave well in the new duration model. If you place a key point precisely at the starting point of the next transition (the slide's end point in the old system), this key point will appear at the corresponding place after moving the slide. This will show some influence on the animation, if the outgoing transition times are different. In post 4 of this thread I have expressed my reservations against the new system, and I have not changed my mind, so far

Regards,

Xaver

[Igor]

Jill,

Please experiment with this project on your PC.

Source files:

http://www.wnsoft.com/files/test/timing-system/Video.zip (4 MB)

[nobeefstu]

Daniel,

I dont see a problem with the calculations. However ... switching the setting back and forth during operations is going to promote unnecessary confusion.

So it seems that there is a remaining problem with the calculation of the duration of last slide in the slide list (that happens only after modifying the option).

*In order to avoid any discussion on the subject, I agree, there is no problem if the option is never modified during a project (but I am convinced that is not a realistic view).

When you enable the Keep Full Slide Duration ... you are also essentially locking the duration of each slide. If you add your new slide to the third slide position instead of the last slide position ... you should see the 2/7 2/7 2/7 2/5 you expect.

From Igor:

2) The second change is intended to keep a full slide duration after sorting of slides in

the Slide list or after adding of a new slide to the end of the Slide list . The program

can reduce/enlarge pure slide duration to keep total slide duration unchanged. This

allows move complex slides with animation or slides with video clips keeping their

correct playback.

This second change mainly intended for the slide list mode. In the timline it will affect

only when you add a new slide to end (double-click on a picture/video in the file list

above).

[jkb]

Igor,

Thank you for the demo pte.

I have amended this to include some animation & sound effects at the start & end of the show.

Note the first sound effect starts at 1.5secs exactly when slide 2 starts to appear.

The end sound effect is exactly with the last slide (blank). Slide 1 is also a blank (normal procedure in an AV).

This starting point pte is made with 'keep full slide..' unticked so follows v6.5 timings.

Try moving the 3 middle slides around.

All effects remain in their correct place with the slide/video.

Slide 2 always starts with the first sound & the last sound is always with the last slide.

Keep looking at the Timeline to check.

Now reopen this starting pte but tick the 'keep full slide...' box.

Timings now work as v7.0.1

First run & all is as it should be.

But now try moving the 3 middle slides around.

You will see (& hear) that the position of slide 2 moves & so does the end blank slide.

The sound effects no longet coincide with the correct point in the show.

Check the Timeline to see what has happened.

Yes the individual animations on the slides/video still work correctly, but slide2 & the last slide move their physical start points.

Note that the duration of slide 1 does not always change when slide 2 changes, following the logic of the new timings it should.

Also try adding extra slides in both versions, again you will see that in v7.0.1 the timings do not follow the expected logic.

Altering the position of the middle slides within a show should not affect the overall timing or the relationship with the start/end sounds.

I hope that this demonstrates that there is still a problem with the new timing system, but the old system works perfectly.

Regards Jill

Testv7.0.1-StartingPoint.zip

[Guest Yachtsman1]

I've been viewing this from the sidelines as I haven't yet moved on from PTE 6.04 as the sound additions & video have not been needed in my shows. However as an avid PTE follower I opened your file and noticed that it contains a couple of WAV files which I believe can cause PTE problems. Have you tried converting these to MP3 and checking the results???

Yachtsman1.

[davegee]

Igor,

In order to progress I would like to offer a suggestion:

In FILE> NEW offer the user the option to create a New File with EITHER the old, 6.5, Keep Full Slide Duration Unticked method.....

....OR the new, 7.0.1, Keep Full Slide Duration Ticked method.

Not both.

Remove the Keep Full Slide Duration tickbox from the User Interface.

That way users can work in one method or the other until:

a. The percieved "bugs" are ironed out

b. Users are more comfortable with the 7.0.1 method.

At some time in the future in might be possible to re-integrate the two methods and in the meantime we can all concentrate on other more important issues.

I think that this would be a workable compromise and I recommend it to the forum.

DG

[xahu34]

....

Altering the position of the middle slides within a show should not affect the overall timing or the relationship with the start/end sounds.

I hope that this demonstrates that there is still a problem with the new timing system, but the old system works perfectly.

....

Sorry, this is not a problem, it is a "feature" With the new definition of slide duration, and the requirement of keeping the duration fixed, this "feature" is a natural consequence. This has been obvious from the beginning (see post 4 above). You cannot have fixed transition points and fixed new durations at the same time The new duration model (I said this before) has its side effects that cannot be avoided.

I would like to a agree with DaveG to "Remove the 'Keep Full Slide Duration' tickbox from the User Interface". This would have the advantage that we could untick it and neved look at it again!

Regards,

Xaver

[fh1805]

I also agree with DaveG's suggestion to have the Keep full slide duration as an option that is chosen once at start of a new project and is then locked for that project. It is clear from the discussions that have taken place that changing this option mid-project is going to lead to all sorts of problems and confusion for the users.

regards,

Peter

[jkb]

Sorry, this is not a problem, it is a "feature" With the new definition of slide duration, and the requirement of keeping the duration fixed, this "feature" is a natural consequence. This has been obvious from the beginning (see post 4 above). You cannot have fixed transition points and fixed new durations at the same time The new duration model (I said this before) has its side effects that cannot be avoided.

I would like to a agree with DaveG to "Remove the 'Keep Full Slide Duration' tickbox from the User Interface". This would have the advantage that we could untick it and neved look at it again!

Regards,

Xaver

Xaver,

How can simply swapping the position of 2 slides & having the overall time of the show change be a feature?

I did not change any durations when moving the slides, I simply moved their position in the list.

This should have no effect whatsoever on the overall timings.

I am sure that many users move slides around while they are building up a show.

Whichever method of timing you choose to use, the overall length of the show should not alter unless you ask it to.

Nor should the starting point of slides not moved.

Sorry but this is a bug, not a feature.

I also agree that the 'keep full slide duration' should be moved from the main screen.

It should also be project dependant. So if a project is started with unticked it should remain unticked each time you open that project.

At the moment it keeps what ever the last setting was when you closed down PTE.

So it appears to be a system parameter, rather than a project parameter.

This will cause even more problems if the user is expecting it to work one way & it is actually working the other!

Jill

[jkb]

I've been viewing this from the sidelines as I haven't yet moved on from PTE 6.04 as the sound additions & video have not been needed in my shows. However as an avid PTE follower I opened your file and noticed that it contains a couple of WAV files which I believe can cause PTE problems. Have you tried converting these to MP3 and checking the results???

Yachtsman1.

PTE can handle WAV or MP3.

The reason we use MP3 is to keep the overall file size down.

Jill

[Igor]

For all members.

Thank you again for your contribution in discussion of this complex question!

I'm afraid we are not able reach consensus, because each of two timing systems has own benefits and side effects.

We prefer leave things as is according the latest version 7.0.1 Beta.

I'd like to remind that by default version 7.0.1 will suggest users the old timing system. Existing users will not see any changes since version 6.5.

[fh1805]

Igor,

By all means retain the two systems but do please give serious consideration to the suggestion that the "Keep full slide duration" should be removed from the main screen and made a Project Option (factory-shipped default value = off). It will then become a setting similat to Hardware Acceleration: those who need to change it can do so and accept the consequences, those who don't can forget about it!

regards,

Peter

[xahu34]

....

How can simply swapping the position of 2 slides & having the overall time of the show change be a feature?

....

Sorry but this is a bug, not a feature.

....

I thought that it were clear from the context that my use of the word "feature" were to be regarded as ironic. On the other hand: We cannot talk about a bug. The program seems to work in a logical manner. You really cannot fulfill the following three requirements at the same time: New duration model, fixed durations, and no time shifts of transition points. This set of requirements includes a contradiction. If Igor wants to have the option for the new duration model in combination with fixed durations, we have to live with the time shifts. But we are lucky to have the option for our beloved old model. That's fine, isn't it?

Regards,

Xaver

[Barry Beckham]

Igor

I have not been following this thread, far too much to read and digest. However, for what its worth I have probably put together more demos in the past few weeks than most and I find the software is working OK for my style of work

[aplman]

Xaver,

How can simply swapping the position of 2 slides & having the overall time of the show change be a feature?

...

Sorry but this is a bug, not a feature.

Jill

I believe it's a "feature" if it's what Wnsoft intended, but a "bug" if it's not.

By way of compromise, I suggest it has shown up a "design flaw"?

Ken T (APLman)