Stourhead in Autumn

[David Porter]

Inspired by Roger Stevens and Howard Bagshaw, I’ve had a go at putting some narration on this A/V. I am aware the quality of the recoding is not great (Xmas is coming) and my voice is not the best (am giving auditions to some friends). So this is a W.I.P. and I would appreciate any tips or advice which I could incorporate into the finished article. Many thanks.

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Mac Link

[Ken Cox]

MICK

great collection of shots - colors brilliant

now to sound -- thankfully you enabled manual control

up to 3:41 i had a problem making out your accent and you spoke too fast and low -- went along great to 5:22 then you fell back and 5:40 to end again too fast -- the background music could be a bit lower for your voice

overall a good show other than the voice

ken

[Howard Bagshaw]

Hi Mick,

You have some lovely photographs which give a good impression of the scenery in autumn. Your story of a walk around the lake, looking at different buildings, makes an interesting structure to the sequence.

I would definately have a play with the relative levels of the background music and your narration. At the moment you are being drowned out by the music. Perceived wisdom is that the music should be about 20db less than the narration. I would also look to where the narration comes in and try to make use of the music rather than fight it: e.g. while you are saying "...The very fine September weather this year..." you are talking over a lovely change in the mood of the music. I would perhaps let that mood change happen before you start that bit of narration. Again, I would finish with the music, rather than the sitation at the moment where you seem to be racing to get the last sentences in before the music finishes. They are interesting facts which shouldn't be rushed and then you could finish with the last bars of the music.

I'll try sending you a personal email with a few more observatuions/suggestions.

However, congratualtions on the sequence, I think that narraton already adds a lot of enjoyment and information to the sequence.

Best wishes, Howard

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Hi Mick

As you have specifically asked for critique, here is my take on the show.

Pictures, overall excellent, two I saw needed a bit of straightening, (view through window from inside & the statues inside).

Music I think I would have used the middle track throughout the show as it needed the least variation in level to suit the voice over.

Voice over had a rumble in the background on some passage & varied in level so that the music overwhelmed the VO in parts. I think you need a pop screen between you and the mike so you can get closer without excessive breath sound, couple of pounds on ebay.

Regards Eric

Yachtsman1.

Details of your hardware & how you approached the VO would be handy.

[fh1805]

Mick,

I enjoyed that. It made me want to go there - or to somewhere closer to home that would be equally magnificent. The comments have already been made about the balance between the music volume level and the voice-over volume level. I don't know whether you assembled the soundtrack items within PTE or using an external sound editor such as Audition or Audacity. Which-ever it was you need to reduce the music level considerably. Do this as an "across the board" reduction to all of the music.

That will leave you with a new concern: that the music is now too quiet for those parts where you are not speaking. My rule of thumb for that situation is as follows: if there are just one or two images without voice-over, leave the music level low but if there are three or more, raise the music level a little - but not all the way back to full volume. You don't want the music level to be yo-yo-ing up and down. Both PTE and the extarnal sound editors have an "envelope" tool that allows you to adjust the volume of just part of the recording. Once we have a better sound balance, it will then be possible to decide what, if any, further changes might be needed to the voice-over recording.

One thing that came across to me was that you seemed to be not entirely relaxed with the idea of "talking to yourself" into the microphone. That will come with more practice. Even then, it is often a good idea to record all the voice-over and then go back and re-record the first two or three items of the voice-over. You will have relaxed as you have worked through the recording session and the second take of the early items will sound much more like the middle and end items - i.e. more relaxed.

The images seemed to be very even paced and mostly (if not all) simple fades. It helps maintain audience interest if you can engineer some variety into the sequence. Try using one or two of the other transitions - but very judiciously! I would suggest "Circle" - both from and to centre and "Page" - both top to bottom and side to side might find a place in that sequence. Make sure you set a very

soft edge to those transitions (Own thickness of smoothing line greater than 70%).

[N.B. If I am wrong about the use of simple fade, then you have no problems. You've already mastered using different transitions in a manner that keeps them non-intrusive].

Did you take any close-ups of any leaves? If so, a sprinkling of close-ups will add visual variety to a show that was mostly mid- and long-shots.

I look forward to seeing the next version of this show.

regards,

Peter

[Lin Evans]

Hi Mick,

Great job. I find nothing wrong with your speaking voice and the photos were beautiful. Just drop the overall volume level of the background music and in my opinion it will be fine!

Best regards,

Lin

Inspired by Roger Stevens and Howard Bagshaw, I've had a go at putting some narration on this A/V. I am aware the quality of the recoding is not great (Xmas is coming) and my voice is not the best (am giving auditions to some friends). So this is a W.I.P. and I would appreciate any tips or advice which I could incorporate into the finished article. Many thanks.

PC Link

Mac Link

[colin hill]

Hi Mick,

A valiant first attempt and well done. The photography was good and regarding voice and music, I think all has been said by members above.

I am still to try what you have just achieved and am sure with more practice and experience, you will produce a masterpiece.

Regards,

Colin

[xahu34]

I really like this kind of slide shows. I am not a native speaker, and I have a preference for writing in English rather than listening. Nevertheless, concentrating on your commentary (rather than looking at the images), I could (easily) follow it most of the time. Much has been said on the adjustment of music and voice, and you should follow these recommendations. I don't think that your accent gives rise to a problem, but you may try to improve your articulation. It is difficult to argue on the quality of the voice recording, because of the loudness of the music. Regarding the ongoing discussion in another thread on "BEST METHOD FOR RECORDING COMMENTARY ...", it should be clear that you should not use a headset for Skype, but on the other hand, I do not think that there is a need for high end recording equipment. You seem to have improved the contrast settings of your images. In some places this did not work, e.g. look at the trees on the image at time 5:40. I think that your are on a good way!

Regards,

Xaver

[rmstevens]

Mick,

Well done at your first attempt - the VO has greatly improved the sequence. Not a lot

I can added to the excellent advice from the critics so far. Important you end with music

and get the balance right. My mike windshield was made from my wife's tights stretched over

a ring made from a wire coat hanger! A number of pictures would be improved in Photoshop using

Image - Adjustments - Shadow/Hightlights and increasing the Highlight control to add colour

in the highlight areas. I do all my sound mixing outside PTE using Cool Edit (others use Audacity)

Regards,

Roger.

[David Porter]

Well, I am very appreciative of the quick, detailed and very helpful advice received from everbody. This is surely what this Forum ia about and any further advice would still be appreciated.

For info, I use PS for photo processing and Audacity for audio (but with very limited knowledge) and a USB (cheap I'm afraid) microphone. Better equipment is on Father Christmas's list but so are a lot of other things.

As well as the technical problems, I think I got my thinking wrong to start with so I am having another go trying to haromonise the slides, music and narration as a whole rather than piecemeal and hopefully put your suggestions to good use as well.

[David Porter]

Hi Roger and Xaver,

My reply above was writen before I had read your comments, so thank you also. Re the slide at 5.40, this was in fact taken the year before but I thought it was a good one to end with (nearly). The sky was blown out on the original so I recoverd it by selecting and wacking the sliders in Levels and or trying Hghlight/shadows as Rogers suggestion but i could not find a way of stopping the fringing at the top of the trees. I'll take on board your suggestions in the re-vamp. Many thanks.

[rmstevens]

Mick,

My method in Photoshop (in my case CS3) to remove fringing is to use the

Magic Wand Tool with tolerance set to say 20 and mouse click in the sky area.

Still in Magic Tool, click on "Refine Edges" button then change the "Feather" to

say 8 and "Contract/Expand" to say +50%. This produces a selection with a

soft edge and slightly into the tree tops. I would then increase highlights

under the Image - Adjustments - Shadow/Highlights to restore sky detail.

Regards, Roger.

Incidently another recommendation when doing Voice Overs is to record your

voice whilst standing.

[David Porter]

Thanks for the advice Roger on Refined Edge, I'll give it a go, but I'm still trying to get the voiceover acceptable. Not easy, is it and I'm just about to have my third go at it. I think I have got the timings, music and levels as I want them plus I know a lot more about Audacity so I am going to re-record the voiceover. I tried the standing up method but thought I do a sitting down with legs up to get a more relaxed commentary. If this one does not work then it is going out the window!

[rmstevens]

Mick,

My secret is a can of larger before recording but no more than one.

In your case, record after an Arsenal win - you are in a more relaxed

state then!

Roger

[David Porter]

Roger,

The first maybe, the second - definitely not. My wife has got ear plugs to protect her against the bad language, even when they win!

[David Porter]

"Those who attempt voice-over for the first time are often left feeling it is an impossible think to do" - Peter Appleton, Staffs Audio Visual Group from his very good Tutorial on Voice-overs.

He's not wrong there but I have tried to take on board all your excellent comments and sought help elsewhere and after countless attempts I have re-vamped my Stourhead show on the links below. I am totally Stourheaded out now and this is as good as it's going to get but if you have the staying power to watch it again and offer any further comments and tips I will certainly take these on board when (of if) I do another one.

PC Link

Mac Link

[fh1805]

Mick,

That's a massive improvement over the original! And I can now assure you that there is nothing wrong with your voice for voice-over work. However, I felt that the balance between voice and music was still not quite as good as it could be. For your own education, rather than our enjoyment, I would suggest you make two more mixes of the soundtrack. In one of them, set the music to a level that does not clash with your voice at all (a little lower than you have used in this sequence), and leave it at that level throughout the sequence. For the other mix, take what you currently have but extend the duration of the fades around your voice over clips. Some of these seemed rather abrupt. I generally aim for a fade of between 0.75 and 1.5 seconds at each piece of voice-over. By making these two variants, you will be able to decide for yourself, which style you prefer: variant 1, variant 2 or the version as presented here.

regards,

Peter

P.S. Thank you for quoting my article. I'm glad you found it of interest, but can I point out that I have no connection whatever with the Staffs AV Group. I'm chairman of the North-East AV Group (and will be off to our AGM and Christmas Social in the next half-hour). Someone in the Staffs AV Group has evidently seen my two articles, thought they had merit, and added them to the Staffs AV Group website. They were originally published here on the forum.

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Hi Mick

As I was one of the commenters on your first effort, I thought I owed it to you to check out the second. Firstly, did you re-name the EXE? my system was still holding the first one & asked if I wanted to over write it so I did, so I am hoping I watched the second version?.

To me, the music still overpowers the voice over in the first section. I think for this show it would be better to either kill the VO & use the current music or choose a less dramatic back ground music & set the VO volume above the music & leave it at that, trying to increase and decrease the dramatic background music & maintain the VO level so the listner isn't straining to hear what is said is an art that needs lots of practice & rarely successful.

The VO volume on the current show increases substantially when the "following our route" passage is spoken & is clearer. Picture wise I think there are still straightening issues with the through the interior window shots & the three statues set in niches? Don't give up the ship

Regards Eric

Yachtsman1

[colin hill]

Mick,

A vast improvement in my opinion, to your previous attempt.

I am no expert at all in voice over, so cannot criticize the technical aspects.

Colin

[Ken Cox]

Hi Mick

As I was one of the commenters on your first effort, I thought I owed it to you to check out the second. Firstly, did you re-name the EXE? my system was still holding the first one & asked if I wanted to over write it so I did, so I am hoping I watched the second version?.

To me, the music still overpowers the voice over in the first section. I think for this show it would be better to either kill the VO & use the current music or choose a less dramatic back ground music & set the VO volume above the music & leave it at that, trying to increase and decrease the dramatic background music & maintain the VO level so the listner isn't straining to hear what is said is an art that needs lots of practice & rarely successful.

The VO volume on the current show increases substantially when the "following our route" passage is spoken & is clearer. Picture wise I think there are still straightening issues with the through the interior window shots & the three statues set in niches? Don't give up the ship

Regards Eric

Yachtsman1

Mick

as Eric says

practice

and

"Don't give up the ship

ken

[rmstevens]

Mick,

Time to leave well alone. I think you have done a really good job on this one.

Hope it encourages you to do more VOs. If you want me to be picky - a number of

pictures need straightening and try in Audacity's "Normalising" to 90% to set the

overall sound level. Well done.

Roger

[David Porter]

Thanks very much for your valuable comments

Eric. The filename for the latest show had "voicefinal" in it, the previous one had "voiceB" so hope you have the correct one as I thought the voice levels were fairly consistant. Agree with the straightening comment although where you see the reflection of the buidings this can confuse the eye.

Peter. Sorry about the mis-attributation, the surname did not ring a bell - one of the disadvantages of using user names. Good point about lowering the music a bit earlier, I think it adds an air of expectation. On board for next time.

Roger. Will try "Normalising to 90%" without, at the moment, knowing what it means - next time.

Ken. Yes I will keep trying.

General. I and a couple of other people have listened to the show on computer and on my (newly acquired) TV and nobody thought my voice was being overpowered by the music. I am obviously coming from a music based audio background where the music is quite important and I certainly did not want it lost while I was speaking. We'll see what happens on the next project.

Thanks once again.

[fh1805]

Mick,

"Normalising" sound levels in Audacity is primarily about reducing the loudest parts of the sound to a user-specified "headroom" level, and then bringing the rest of the sound down in proportion so that dynamics between one passage and the next are preserved. Note that I said "...down in proportion". That is my experience; it takes sound down more frequently than it takes it up.

"Headroom" is the term used to describe the gap between the highest spike in the sound file and the 0dB level, above which audible distortion will occur. To see this properly in Audacity you need to click in the name bar of one of your tracks and select "Waveform(dB)" instead of the default of "Waveform". You might also need to expand the visible area of that track by sliding the mouse pointer to the bottom of the track until you get a double-ended arrow and then dragging the lower boundary down. Audacity version 1.2 used to default the headroom to 3dB when normalising. Audacity v1.3 seems to default to 0dB and I usually bring that down to 1 or 2dB in order to create a little headroom.

So what's the benefit of normalising? Well, for a start, ripped music shouldn't need normalising if the sound engineer did his job right. But your voice-over is a different matter. You will not be aware that your voice level changes during a recording session. But it does! Your voice gets tired and starts to fade a little. Applying some normalization to the voice track before you start cutting it up into sound bites will help to smooth out those slight variations in your voice level. (Note I said it will help: it will not solve any problems, only assist you in possibly masking them). It is a truism of sound recording that there is only one point at which you can get it right - when you make the original recording. Unlike an over- or under-exposed image, especially if shot as a RAW file that can be corrected in Lightroom or Photoshop or whatever, an over-recorded or under-recorded sound file is a disaster waiting to be mis-used. The only correct place for a bad recording is the cutting room floor (or as it is in our digital studio - the recycle bin).

regards,

Peter

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Hi Mick

I don't know if this will be of any use, but I will try any way. The show I downloaded the second time appears to be your second attempt.

I have attached two screenshots of my "All through the Night" show, one shows the full Audacity completed sound track, the second shows where to find "Normalize". I only use normalize when the waveform of a track displays "Clipping", that's where spikes from the track touch the outside boundaries of the track, Peter told me about that almost 4 years ago now.

I've also attached the original voice over WAV file from my Olympus recorder, warts & all. I've also attached the completed sound track as I inserted it into the show. I thought you might be able to take either of them into Audacity & compare them with your VO regarding levels etc.

If you need any further help or tips about Audacity, I will carry on as long as you like.

Regards Eric.

Yachtsman1.

voice over.WAV

01 - All Through The Night comp st.mp3