How to overlap MP3s?

[goddi]

Greetings,

I am trying to adjust two mp3 files so that they blend together as one ends and the other starts. I want the second mp3 to start playing while the first mp3 plays its last few seconds, or in other words, to overlap.

I tried Crossfade, since that at least sounded like what I wanted to do. But it deals with getting the music to start playing gradually.

Then I tried Offset (both mp3s in Track 1). But that made the second mp3 start only after the end of the first mp3 by the amount of time added to the Offset.

Then I put the second mp3 in Track 2 and used its Offset setting so that it would start playing a few seconds before the first mp3 ended. If the first mp3 was 2:50, I put the Offset for the second mp3 to be 2:45 go get an overlap of 5 seconds. This got the beginning of the second mp3 to start and to play with the ending of the first mp3 for 5 seconds.

Once I got the hang of it, it seems to be a workable solution. My question is, is this the only way to do this in PTE? I don't want to use Audacity to do this. I want to be able to make these adjustments with the audio as I do the editing of the show, within PTE.

Wouldn't it be easier if we could just put both mp3s in Track 1 and be able to put in a negative value in for the Offset for the second mp3 to accomplish the overlapping of the mp3s?

Gary

[Lin Evans]

Hi Gary,

You don't need "offset"- the purpose of that is to vary the "start" time of your audio from the start time of the show. What you need is to set a fade out for your first song and a fade in for the second then set them both to crossfade for identical durations

You use both on a single track, then if you "need" to, set the duration accordingly. If the entire song is to play then fade out, you need not be concerned with "duration." In my sample I used duration because I didn't want to alter the mp3's for the short 30 second slide times.

Here is a sample for you to look at:

http://www.learntoma...ample/gary2.zip

Best regards,

Lin

[goddi]

Hi Gary,

You don't need "offset"- the purpose of that is to vary the "start" time of your audio from the start time of the show. What you need is to set a fade out for your first song and a fade in for the second then set them both to crossfade for identical durations

You use both on a single track, then if you "need" to, set the duration accordingly. If the entire song is to play then fade out, you need not be concerned with "duration." In my sample I used duration because I didn't want to alter the mp3's for the short 30 second slide times.

Here is a sample for you to look at:

http://www.learntoma...ample/gary2.zip

Best regards,

Lin

=============================

Lin,

I checked out your sample. Thanks for the quick reply.

What I don't like about using Crossfade is that it affects the beginning of the 1st mp3. If you notice the beginning of the first mp3, it is not exactly like it sounds if you remove the Crossface. The Crossfade is affecting both the transition between the 1st and the 2nd mp3 AND the beginning of the 1st mp3. The Gerry and the Pacemaker's (G&P) mp3 is losing the very beginning drum section with the Crossfade.

And, your sample is fading out in the middle of the G&P mp3. I don't want to fade out of my first mp3 because it is already fading out. That means I would be fading-out a fade-out. I just want to put the beginning music of my 2nd mp3 on top of the already fading-out end of my 1st mp3.

So if you take out the Crossfade from your sample, it is just a fade-out and a fade-in, no overlapping, but at least you don't lose the beginning drum beats from G&P.

So I think my method works a bit better to actually get the overlap between the two mp3s, without the deficiency that the Crossfade introduces. Do you notice what I mean about the Crossfade affecting the first mp3s music???? Is that a bug???

Gary

[Lin Evans]

Hi Gary,

The "crossfade" has absolutely no effect on the beginning of the first mp3 on any of my systems. The sample is fading out in the early part of the first song because of the the reasons I explained in my other post. I did not want to play the entire song and have multiple slides. I only used two slides to show you how to do what you asked.

" In my sample I used duration because I didn't want to alter the mp3's for the short 30 second slide times."

I used a fade because I was ending the first song in far less that its full version. As I explained, you don't need to deal with duration if you are using the full length of the MP3. If you already have a fade at the end of the song, you only need to set the crossfade to identical times on each mp3 selection.

I can't say why you are experiencing some "difference" in sound. I hear the full drum beginning on all my systems, so apparently there is something unique to your system which is changing that - it's not PTE.

If you find it works better for you to use offset on your second slide and use two tracks, then do it that way - whatever works best.

Best regards,

Lin

=============================

Lin,

I checked out your sample. Thanks for the quick reply.

What I don't like about using Crossfade is that it affects the beginning of the 1st mp3. If you notice the beginning of the first mp3, it is not exactly like it sounds if you remove the Crossface. The Crossfade is affecting both the transition between the 1st and the 2nd mp3 AND the beginning of the 1st mp3. The Gerry and the Pacemaker's (G&P) mp3 is losing the very beginning drum section with the Crossfade.

And, your sample is fading out in the middle of the G&P mp3. I don't want to fade out of my first mp3 because it is already fading out. That means I would be fading-out a fade-out. I just want to put the beginning music of my 2nd mp3 on top of the already fading-out end of my 1st mp3.

So if you take out the Crossfade from your sample, it is just a fade-out and a fade-in, no overlapping, but at least you don't lose the beginning drum beats from G&P.

So I think my method works a bit better to actually get the overlap between the two mp3s, without the deficiency that the Crossfade introduces. Do you notice what I mean about the Crossfade affecting the first mp3s music???? Is that a bug???

Gary

[goddi]

Hi Gary,

The "crossfade" has absolutely no effect on the beginning of the first mp3 on any of my systems.

The sample is fading out in the early part of the first song because of the the reasons I explained in my other post. I did not want to play the entire song and have multiple slides. I only used two slides to show you how to do what you asked.

" In my sample I used duration because I didn't want to alter the mp3's for the short 30 second slide times."

I used a fade because I was ending the first song in far less that its full version. As I explained, you don't need to deal with duration if you are using the full length of the MP3. If you already have a fade at the end of the song, you only need to set the crossfade to identical times on each mp3 selection.

I can't say why you are experiencing some "difference" in sound. I hear the full drum beginning on all my systems, so apparently there is something unique to your system which is changing that - it's not PTE.

If you find it works better for you to use offset on your second slide and use two tracks, then do it that way - whatever works best.

Best regards,

Lin

=================

Lin,

Take a look at the attached gif. If you look closely at the Timelines, you will see what I see. The Timeline without the Crossfade has more 'blips' at the beginning than the Timeline with Crossfade. Something is being removed. And I can hear the difference when I play each. This is in the new version 7.4.

I think I understand what you are doing but I don't think you are actually laying the beginning portion of the 2nd mp3 over the ending portion of the 1st mp3.

Maybe I am wrong but the fading of either end is taking out some of the music. I don't want to do that. I just want to blend the ending of the 1st mp3 with the beginning of the 2nd mp3.

Gary

[fh1805]

Gary,

If you do not want fades then simply add the first MP3 with normal settings and then add the second MP3 to the same Track and assign it an Offset value that "moves" it along the timeline by the appropriate amount. For example if you want MP3 no.2 to begin after the first 2m45s of MP3 no.1, set the offset of no.2 to be 2m45s. However, the point that Lin has been making is that the way to achieve a smooth transition from one piece of music to the next is to have the first one slowly fade out as the second one slowly fades in (i.e. using what is called a "cross-fade"). I always use Audacity for all my sound assembly so cannot comment on how well PTE implements its cross-fade.

regards,

Peter

[davegee]

Crossfading applies to two pieces of music in the same track.

Insert two pieces of music in the same track and adjust the crossfade. Watch how the overall time decreases in step with the amount of crossfade.

You still need to apply Fade in to music 2 and fade out to music 1. This does not influence the overall time for the track. If fade in and fade out are not required ignore this.

It's just like Audition/Audacity - but MUCH easier.

I prefer to use two tracks and apply offset. That's why you can't have Crossfade and Offset at the same time - using both is meaningless. The Offset control does the job of the Crossfade control when using two or more tracks.

It's just like Audition/Audacity - but MUCH easier.

DG

[davegee]

MESSAGE TO IGOR:

To make this work to everyone's satisfaction we need to be able to see MULTIPLE "Audio Clip Properties" and MULTIPLE Waveforms at the SAME TIME.

DG

[davegee]

Something like this:

....with a button to select between before and after for Waveform display.

DG

[fh1805]

And we need to be able to drag those waveforms along the timeline, too.

regards,

Peter

[fh1805]

Oh, yes... and it would be very useful indeed to have the flags to show where each slide change starts (and the grey bars that indicate how long the transition runs for).

regards,

Peter

P.S. I'm not sure that we need to have stereo waveforms, do we? An ability to show each waveform as mono would allow us to save some vertical space on the screen and thus see more individual pieces of waveform (four items instead of two in your illustration, Dave)

[goddi]

Greetings Peter,

Gary,

If you do not want fades then simply add the first MP3 with normal settings and then add the second MP3 to the same Track and assign it an Offset value that "moves" it along the timeline by the appropriate amount. For example if you want MP3 no.2 to begin after the first 2m45s of MP3 no.1, set the offset of no.2 to be 2m45s.

The way you suggest is not the way it is working with my V.7.04. If I keep both mp3s in Track 1, the Offset I apply to mp3 no.2 is applied from the end of mp3 no1. When I do this, there is a 2m45s blank space between the two mp3s. To avoid this, I have to put mp3 no.2 in Track 2.

However, the point that Lin has been making is that the way to achieve a smooth transition from one piece of music to the next is to have the first one slowly fade out as the second one slowly fades in (i.e. using what is called a "cross-fade"). I always use Audacity for all my sound assembly so cannot comment on how well PTE implements its cross-fade.

But what about the attachment I have in my previous posting that shows the Crossfade is affecting the beginning of mp3 no.1? It is showing clearly, at least to me, that some of the introductory drum beats are eliminated in mp3 no.1 when Crossfade is introduced. No one has addressed that yet.

Thanks... Gary

regards,

Peter

[goddi]

DG,

Exactly. Can I vote twice???

Gary

============================

Something like this:

....with a button to select between before and after for Waveform display.

DG

[Lin Evans]

Hi Gary,

If the drum beats are "eliminated" in your system, there is something wrong outside of PTE. If you use a very "long" crossfade such as the 10 seconds I used for the quick demo, the volume is "attenuated" as the song fades in but data is certainly not eliminated. If you change from a 10 second crossfade to a 4 second crossfade there is virtually zero difference between having or not having a crossfade as applies to the beginning of the background song.

I would imagine that the reason for this is to make "crossfade" universal. There is no way to apriori know whether a particular music selection is going to be used as the "fade out" or the "fade in" so both the beginning and end of the selection are affected. The beginning is faded in and the end is faded out. That way regardless of where a song is placed (in position one as the fade out, or position two as the fade in) there will be no abrupt start.

Best regards,

Lin

[goddi]

Greetings Lin,

No, they are not 'eliminated'. But the beginning drum beats of the 1st mp3 are definitely reduced in sound level with your Crossfade of 10s. In the .gif I had attached, you can see that the waveform barely shows about 4 of the beats when your 10s of Crossfade is applied. If you bring Crossfade to 0s, there is an increase in the number of drum beats you can see in the waveform and you can actually hear the difference when played. I see all of this 'inside' PTE using its waveform in the Timeline. I still don't see why it should be affecting the 1st mp3.

I have just noticed another problem with Crossfade. The default setting seems to be 5s. If you bring it down to 0s and then go back into Crossfade, the setting goes back to 5s. Should it not stay at the 0s you set it at?

Another problem with Crossfade: I am working on a new slideshow that has 2 mp3s. Both are in their own track so I can apply Offset to the 2nd mp3 to have the beginning of the 2nd mp3 overlay the end of the 1st mp3 for a few seconds. If I happen to change the Crossfade of the 2nd mp3 to any other setting than its default of 5, the 2nd mp3 disappears from the wave form and so does the Offset setting. I don't know why I would fiddle with the Crossfade in this instance but I did and it did something weird. Any you can't get it back to where it was unless you close PTE and reopen it without having save it.

Gary

=====================================================

Hi Gary,

If the drum beats are "eliminated" in your system, there is something wrong outside of PTE. If you use a very "long" crossfade such as the 10 seconds I used for the quick demo, the volume is "attenuated" as the song fades in but data is certainly not eliminated. If you change from a 10 second crossfade to a 4 second crossfade there is virtually zero difference between having or not having a crossfade as applies to the beginning of the background song.

I would imagine that the reason for this is to make "crossfade" universal. There is no way to apriori know whether a particular music selection is going to be used as the "fade out" or the "fade in" so both the beginning and end of the selection are affected. The beginning is faded in and the end is faded out. That way regardless of where a song is placed (in position one as the fade out, or position two as the fade in) there will be no abrupt start.

Best regards,

Lin

[Lin Evans]

Greetings Lin,

No, they are not 'eliminated'. But the beginning drum beats of the 1st mp3 are definitely reduced in sound level with your Crossfade of 10s. In the .gif I had attached, you can see that the waveform barely shows about 4 of the beats when your 10s of Crossfade is applied. If you bring Crossfade to 0s, there is an increase in the number of drum beats you can see in the waveform and you can actually hear the difference when played. I see all of this 'inside' PTE using its waveform in the Timeline. I still don't see why it should be affecting the 1st mp3.

I gave you my explanation - I can do no more.....

I have just noticed another problem with Crossfade. The default setting seems to be 5s. If you bring it down to 0s and then go back into Crossfade, the setting goes back to 5s. Should it not stay at the 0s you set it at?

No, it should go to the default. Why would you expect to have Zero in a crossfade? Zero is "no crossfade" so you wouldn't check crossfade if you didn't want it.

Another problem with Crossfade: I am working on a new slideshow that has 2 mp3s. Both are in their own track so I can apply Offset to the 2nd mp3 to have the beginning of the 2nd mp3 overlay the end of the 1st mp3 for a few seconds. If I happen to change the Crossfade of the 2nd mp3 to any other setting than its default of 5, the 2nd mp3 disappears from the wave form and so does the Offset setting. I don't know why I would fiddle with the Crossfade in this instance but I did and it did something weird. Any you can't get it back to where it was unless you close PTE and reopen it without having save it.

I don't know why you would fiddle with it either. Gary, you're like a rat terrier worrying a carcass. If you pull the sparkplug wire from a high performance engine while running it will foul the sparkplug. You're not "expected" to pull the sparkplug wire. Crossfade is designed to work with two song selections on the same track. You shouldn't use crossfade if you don't have both selections on the same track. Developers can't possibly account for all the exigencies which users "might" do. If you really think this is a "bug" then report it to Igor as such.

This started as a question about how to do crossfade and is developing into a dissertation.... LOL

Best regards,

Lin

Gary

=====================================================

[davegee]

I'm not sure that I'm understanding this discussion.

Crossfade applies to the section between two pieces - it doesn't have an affect on the beginning of the first MP3?

Unless the crossfade time is greater than or equal to the track time and a fade in value is set.

DG

[davegee]

And we need to be able to drag those waveforms along the timeline, too.

regards,

Peter

I don't necessarily agree with that. Altering the values in the "Audio Clip Properties" does that for you more precisely.

Oh, yes... and it would be very useful indeed to have the flags to show where each slide change starts (and the grey bars that indicate how long the transition runs for).

regards,

Peter

P.S. I'm not sure that we need to have stereo waveforms, do we? An ability to show each waveform as mono would allow us to save some vertical space on the screen and thus see more individual pieces of waveform (four items instead of two in your illustration, Dave)

I see what you mean and yes, I agree.

DG

[fh1805]

Gary,

What is this default cross-fade of 5 seconds? I do not see this. When I add a music item to a track and click on Customize, I see all zeros except for the duration and the volume level (100%).

Also, I have just started a new project and added two pieces of music to Track 1. I then selected the second piece of music (music #2) and set Crossfading to 4 seconds. What happend was that the start point of music #2 was moved forward by four seconds to overlap the end of the first piece of music (music #1), the first 4 seconds of music#2 was faded in and the last four seconds of music #1 was faded out. This is exactly what I would expect to happen apply a cross-fade to two pieces of music in the same track. I do not believe PTE is written to apply a cross-fade across two music items that are in different Tracks. In this respect it lacks flexibility compared to Audacity, Audition, etc., where the user has total control over each individual piece irrespective of which track it is in.

It is meaningless to set a value for "Crossfading" on the first item in a track as there is no other piece before it to be cross-faded with. You don't set a value for "Crossfading" on both items: only on the second item.

Peter

[davegee]

Peter,

Click on the CROSSFADING BUTTON.

DG

[fh1805]

I don't necessarily agree with that. Altering the values in the "Audio Clip Properties" does that for you more precisely.

Dave,

I rarely know precisely where I am along the timeline when I am compiling soundtracks - nor do I usually care. My concern is to align a particular part of one waveform with a particular part of another waveform. The assembly of the soundtrack, using Audacity, is done as much by eye as it is by ear - probably more so most of the time. The timing of the slides and their transitions are then fine-tuned to the soundtrack. Ignoring any software product differences, does this mean we work in different ways and are therefore looking for different features?

Peter

[goddi]

Lin,

I certainly didn't want to turn this into a dissertation. I am just trying to get answers to what I am seeing that does not make sense. You gave me an explanation but it seems that you are only talking about the effects between the 1st and 2nd mp3s. I understand where the Crossfade should happen. However, my question has to do with why is it affecting the beginning of the 1st mp3? I don't think you have responded to that. I tried using Crossfade on another show with 2 mp3s and, again, it affected to beginning of the 1st mp3. I don't think that is what it is supposed to happen.

Greetings Lin,

No, they are not 'eliminated'. But the beginning drum beats of the 1st mp3 are definitely reduced in sound level with your Crossfade of 10s. In the .gif I had attached, you can see that the waveform barely shows about 4 of the beats when your 10s of Crossfade is applied. If you bring Crossfade to 0s, there is an increase in the number of drum beats you can see in the waveform and you can actually hear the difference when played. I see all of this 'inside' PTE using its waveform in the Timeline. I still don't see why it should be affecting the 1st mp3.

I gave you my explanation - I can do no more.....

OK

I have just noticed another problem with Crossfade. The default setting seems to be 5s. If you bring it down to 0s and then go back into Crossfade, the setting goes back to 5s. Should it not stay at the 0s you set it at?

No, it should go to the default. Why would you expect to have Zero in a crossfade? Zero is "no crossfade" so you wouldn't check crossfade if you didn't want it.

I would expect it to stay at what I set it at. If '0s' is 'no Crossfade', what is '5s'? If I can make a change from 5s to 0s, it should stay there. Does 5s = 0s? If it does, then it should not let me put in a Zero.

Another problem with Crossfade: I am working on a new slideshow that has 2 mp3s. Both are in their own track so I can apply Offset to the 2nd mp3 to have the beginning of the 2nd mp3 overlay the end of the 1st mp3 for a few seconds. If I happen to change the Crossfade of the 2nd mp3 to any other setting than its default of 5, the 2nd mp3 disappears from the wave form and so does the Offset setting. I don't know why I would fiddle with the Crossfade in this instance but I did and it did something weird. Any you can't get it back to where it was unless you close PTE and reopen it without having save it.

I don't know why you would fiddle with it either. Gary, you're like a rat terrier worrying a carcass. If you pull the sparkplug wire from a high performance engine while running it will foul the sparkplug. You're not "expected" to pull the sparkplug wire. Crossfade is designed to work with two song selections on the same track. You shouldn't use crossfade if you don't have both selections on the same track. Developers can't possibly account for all the exigencies which users "might" do. If you really think this is a "bug" then report it to Igor as such.

Sometimes you just try out menu items to see what would happen. Things happen that aren't expected. I think that is why we have Beta versions. You need the 'rat terriers' to see what happens when developers don't account for what a user might do. The fact that I cannot undo the results of clicking on a menu item that I 'shouldn't' have makes me think the developers weren't good enough 'rat terriers'. I should have been able to put back the default and return it back to where it was. A fix would be, if there is not a second mp3 in that Track, then it should not allow an entry into Crossfade.

Gary ('rat terrier'?-- I take that as a complement).

This started as a question about how to do crossfade and is developing into a dissertation.... LOL

Best regards,

Lin

Gary

[Lin Evans]

Hi Peter,

I think the way this is designed to work in PTE is that you have some really nice flexibility, but one needs to understand exactly how it works. If you do not want or need a fade in on the beginning of your first music selection, then there is no reason to us cross-fade on the first selection. If you do tick crossfade for the first selection, you will get a fade in on the first song "and" a fade out as the actual "cross-fade" happens with the second selection. If you already have a fade in on your MP3 track, then there would be no advantage, but rather a disadvantage, to tick cross-fade for the first selection.

It is "possible" to achieve the cross-fade by using fade-in, fade-out and offset by putting the two songs on separate tracks. Also this would work fine if both selections had fade-in and fade-out already embedded in the MP3. In other words, there are more than one way to achieve identical results.

The thing which confuses many is the relationship or perhaps "functionality" of the offset versus start time. The start time "always" refers to how far into the music selection one wants the tune to begin. That is somewhat counter-intuitive to some. The offset always refers to when along the timeline you want the tune to begin. I know you already understand this thoroughly, I'm only reiterating for other readers.

It would be nice if we could do this "visually," but I don't think it's really a big deal if we can't. I think what needs to be done is to carefully "explain" how it works via the documentation, tutorials and so on. The problem is that we have people experimenting then becoming confused and posting that things are not working correctly when actually it's a total misunderstanding on the part of the individual about how it is "supposed" to work.

A while back one of our French users posted a nice tutorial on using the sound, waveforms, etc., but I think perhaps it wasn't thorough enough and also was not publicized sufficiently. There is always the issue of new users coming on to the forum with the same questions over and again.

I'm not certain what the solution is, but I know we need to somehow "point" new users at the tutorials section when they first register on the forums. Myriad question which I see every week are quite adequately addressed in the many tutorials available, but users are not aware. Maybe there should be a "READ ME FIRST" screen which informs all new registrants that they "should" avail themselves of all the available help. The fact that the "Tutorials and Articles" section is subjugated to the Frequently Asked Questions means that some simply don't see it. Perhaps it deserves its own section?

Best regards,

Lin

Dave,

I rarely know precisely where I am along the timeline when I am compiling soundtracks - nor do I usually care. My concern is to align a particular part of one waveform with a particular part of another waveform. The assembly of the soundtrack, using Audacity, is done as much by eye as it is by ear - probably more so most of the time. The timing of the slides and their transitions are then fine-tuned to the soundtrack. Ignoring any software product differences, does this mean we work in different ways and are therefore looking for different features?

Peter

[goddi]

Peter,

Attached is what I see when I create a new slideshow and just open Crossfade for the first time. It shows 5s. Seems to me it should be Zero.

I understand how Crossfade is supposed to work, overlapping the end of the 1st mp3 with the beginning of the 2nd mp3, and that you should apply it only to the 2nd mp3 (on the same Track).

But, take a look at the beginning few seconds of your 1st mp3 and see that it too has been affected.

Gary

===========================

Gary,

What is this default cross-fade of 5 seconds? I do not see this. When I add a music item to a track and click on Customize, I see all zeros except for the duration and the volume level (100%).

Also, I have just started a new project and added two pieces of music to Track 1. I then selected the second piece of music (music #2) and set Crossfading to 4 seconds. What happend was that the start point of music #2 was moved forward by four seconds to overlap the end of the first piece of music (music #1), the first 4 seconds of music#2 was faded in and the last four seconds of music #1 was faded out. This is exactly what I would expect to happen apply a cross-fade to two pieces of music in the same track. I do not believe PTE is written to apply a cross-fade across two music items that are in different Tracks. In this respect it lacks flexibility compared to Audacity, Audition, etc., where the user has total control over each individual piece irrespective of which track it is in.

It is meaningless to set a value for "Crossfading" on the first item in a track as there is no other piece before it to be cross-faded with. You don't set a value for "Crossfading" on both items: only on the second item.

Peter

[fh1805]

But, take a look at the beginning few seconds of your 1st mp3 and see that it too has been affected.

Gary,

No it hasn't! When I apply crossfading to music #2 there is no change to the start of music #1, only to the end of it where it overlaps with music#2. Are you 100% cast-iron sure that you are using the version of the piece of music that you think you are using?

Peter