fh1805 Posted January 20, 2012 Report Posted January 20, 2012 Igor,There has been some significant confusion over the subject of crossfading (see here). The confusion came about because the Crossfading button on the Project Options...Music tab worked differently to the use of the Audio clip properties pop-up window accessed via Customize on the Project Options...Music tab.Using the Crossfading button, a fade-in was applied to the start of the first piece of music. Using the Audio clip properties, if only one piece of music was present in that Track, the same happened. In neither case was the user forced to select two adjacent pieces of music in the same Track.Cross-fading has meaning only when there are two or more pieces chosen and these pieces follow one another on the timeline.I suggest that both the Crossfading button on the Music tab and the Crossfading radio button in Audio clip properties should be greyed-out until there are two or more sound files present in at least one of the Tracks. In either case, unless there are only two sound files in just one track, the user should be prompted to select the two tracks to which the crossfade is to be applied. (If there are only two sound files and both in the same track, then the software can make the obvious logical assumption that it is those two that are to be cross-faded).regards,Peter Quote
goddi Posted January 20, 2012 Report Posted January 20, 2012 Greetings,And, remove the 5 secs 'suggested value' that appears when you open Crossfading. If you have not added any seconds to the Crossfading, then it should show what it actually is, and that is '0'.Gary Quote
davegee Posted January 20, 2012 Report Posted January 20, 2012 Gary,There was similar problem when KFSD was introduced and Igor was unable to set a zero parameter - it could be that it has to be a POSITIVE value. He got around the KFSD problem another way.In any case, if you press the CROSSFADING button (properly working) surely your logical intention is to set a positive value. Why then, does making its default zero help?DG Quote
goddi Posted January 20, 2012 Report Posted January 20, 2012 Gary,There was similar problem when KFSD was introduced and Igor was unable to set a zero parameter - it could be that it has to be a POSITIVE value. He got around the KFSD problem another way.In any case, if you press the CROSSFADING button (properly working) surely your logical intention is to set a positive value. Why then, does making its default zero help?DG=========================DG, It makes sense to me that if I have not added any Crossfading, I would not expect to see '5 secs'? What if someone clicked on the 'OK' in the little Crossfading Duration window that has the '5 secs'? It would input the 5 secs of Crossfacing by accident. If you put in 1 sec, it will input 1 sec., or if you chose 2 secs, it would input 2 secs. So why not start out with what it actually is and should be, which is Zero. It won't allow a negative value, so I don't see the resistant to Zero.Can you explain more why "0:00.000" should not be used? I don't see why '5 secs' helps. If that is Igor's 'suggested amount', then it should be put in text, as a suggestion.GaryADDED LATER: If you change the '5 secs' to '0', and click on OK, nothing happens. Everything stays as it was, with no Crossfading. So why not start out with '0' instead of '5'? Quote
xahu34 Posted January 21, 2012 Report Posted January 21, 2012 ...There was similar problem when KFSD was introduced ...Do I have to know what KFSD means in order use PicturesToExe Regards,Xaver Quote
xahu34 Posted January 21, 2012 Report Posted January 21, 2012 In principle I agree with Peter's statements, but: Do we really want WnSoft to spent (or let me say waste) time with the given audio interface. A totally new one has been announced. So, why not waiting for the new version Regards,Xaver Quote
Lin Evans Posted January 21, 2012 Report Posted January 21, 2012 Hi Gary,Logically zero make no sense. A "cross-fade" option with zero time is not a cross-fade. Defaults are there for convenience. There is no value in having "zero" where zero has no meaning. In fact having a zero in cross-fade would be illogical. One had just as well have a tick box that said "no cross-fade" with a "zero" in it. Pretty useless don't you think?I think you fail to grasp the significance of "default" settings. Most people who want a cross-fade will be quite happy with 5 seconds. If you put in zero it not only negates the intent of "cross-fade," it "forces" the user to put a value in if they want a cross-fade. Best regards,Lin=========================DG, It makes sense to me that if I have not added any Crossfading, I would not expect to see '5 secs'? What if someone clicked on the 'OK' in the little Crossfading Duration window that has the '5 secs'? It would input the 5 secs of Crossfacing by accident. If you put in 1 sec, it will input 1 sec., or if you chose 2 secs, it would input 2 secs. So why not start out with what it actually is and should be, which is Zero. It won't allow a negative value, so I don't see the resistant to Zero.Can you explain more why "0:00.000" should not be used? I don't see why '5 secs' helps. If that is Igor's 'suggested amount', then it should be put in text, as a suggestion.GaryADDED LATER: If you change the '5 secs' to '0', and click on OK, nothing happens. Everything stays as it was, with no Crossfading. So why not start out with '0' instead of '5'? Quote
goddi Posted January 21, 2012 Report Posted January 21, 2012 Hi Gary,Logically zero make no sense. A "cross-fade" option with zero time is not a cross-fade. Defaults are there for convenience. There is no value in having "zero" where zero has no meaning. In fact having a zero in cross-fade would be illogical. One had just as well have a tick box that said "no cross-fade" with a "zero" in it. Pretty useless don't you think?I think you fail to grasp the significance of "default" settings. Most people who want a cross-fade will be quite happy with 5 seconds. If you put in zero it not only negates the intent of "cross-fade," it "forces" the user to put a value in if they want a cross-fade. Best regards,Lin============Lin,I think we can agree to disagree with this one. Then to be consistent, a '5 sec' should be put in the Crossfading in the Audio Clip Properties, too? At least be consistent? But then, Unsharp Mask has a '0'. Not to mention Line Space and Sharper/Smoother. So it can be done. And I would think that if you don't have any Crossfading being used, zero makes sense to me. And aren't we most always being 'forced' to put in some value in most menus? As long as they fix the fade-in problem with Crossfading, it is no big deal now.Gary Quote
Lin Evans Posted January 21, 2012 Report Posted January 21, 2012 Hi Gary,Line space and sharper smoother are both two directional attributes. You can have more sharpness or less sharpness than what your camera gave you for a default which is zero as far as PTE is concerned. You can have greater space or less space between lines than the software gave you for a default. These "sliders" must pass through zero to give negative or positive values so have no real relevance as comparisons. Unsharp mask is the only one of your three comparisons which is similar to cross-fade, but it only deals with "one" item, the image, while cross-fade defacto deals with two items (music or background audio selections). Unsharp mask is set at zero by default because it is altering the image as it was placed into the show. If you want unsharp masking at all, then you change it visually to suit your own wishes. Cross-fade, on the other hand is defaulted to "off" "unless" you either place a check in the crossfade block or click on cross-fade in the music tab where it offers 5 seconds as a default. If there is no second music or audio choice, the value of zero is preserved even if you click on and choose 5 seconds. So the software is "smart" enough to "not" try to force cross-fade on a single audio selection. Cross-fade, defacto deals with two audio selections. Therefore when cross-fade is chosen, a value of zero is meaningless because it means "no cross-fade." This leaves us with a "default" which is simply a reasonable "guess" at what people generally want in a cross-fade. That's perfect logic in my book. You're right - we simply disagree on the logic of the way it is implemented. The only thing I would change is to eliminate the "cross-fade" on audio selection one when there are two audio selections and you choose cross-fade from the music tab with the 5 second default. I believe that the five second "cross-fade" appearance in music selection one is a bug.Best regards,Lin============Lin,I think we can agree to disagree with this one. Then to be consistent, a '5 sec' should be put in the Crossfading in the Audio Clip Properties, too? At least be consistent? But then, Unsharp Mask has a '0'. Not to mention Line Space and Sharper/Smoother. So it can be done. And I would think that if you don't have any Crossfading being used, zero makes sense to me. And aren't we most always being 'forced' to put in some value in most menus? As long as they fix the fade-in problem with Crossfading, it is no big deal now.Gary Quote
fh1805 Posted January 21, 2012 Author Report Posted January 21, 2012 ...Cross-fade, on the other hand is defaulted to "off" "unless" you either place a check in the crossfade block or click on cross-fade in the music tab...Lin,Not true! If you do Project Options...Music...Customize, then irrespective of how many items of sound there are in that Track, Crossfading is a pre-selected radio button showing a default value of zero. Gary is right in one respect: the display of the Crossfading option is inconsistent in its values.I firmly believe that the implementation of the Crossfading function needs an overhaul so that it is only available when there are two or more items in a Track, and the user must consciously choose which two adjacent items the cross-fade is to be applied to. The only time the software makes the decision for the user is when there are just two items in just one Track. This whole subject is, to my mind, a classic example of when a vastly improved Help interface would be a great benefit.What I envisage would be that hovering the mouse pointer over the word Crossfading would result in a "Tool Tip" pop-up giving a brief description of what Crossfading was (e.g. overlaps two items of sound and applies a fade-out/fade-in at the overlap). That text would, itself, be a hyperlink to a full description of this function in the Help files. Every single button, every single option, every single field label should have the Tool Tip, with many of them also having that text act as a hyperlink into the Help manual. But this would have to be a whole new project for Igor and the team - and would have major implications for the translators. I think I'll open a new topic under Ideas and Suggestions so that this topic doesn't get hi-jacked.Peter Quote
dadou Posted January 21, 2012 Report Posted January 21, 2012 Do I have to know what KFSD means in order use PicturesToExePlease !!!! I too do not understand ... Quote
Lin Evans Posted January 21, 2012 Report Posted January 21, 2012 Lin,Not true! If you do Project Options...Music...Customize, then irrespective of how many items of sound there are in that Track, Crossfading is a pre-selected radio button showing a default value of zero. Gary is right in one respect: the display of the Crossfading option is inconsistent in its values.Huh??? What does a value of zero represent if not "off" ??? What isn't "true?" On my system, it works exactly like I stated. What I said was "...Cross-fade, on the other hand is defaulted to "off" "unless" you either place a check in the crossfade block or click on cross-fade in the music tab... I have no idea what you mean - you are paraphrasing exactly what I said. Open a new file, put in one slide, put in one background music MP3. Click on Project Options, then the Music Tab. There is a zero under cross-fade unless you have set your PTE up to a non-standard (not as downloaded) manner. That means cross-fade is "off." The fact that the "circle" is checked is irrelevant - there will be no cross-fade. Now click on the cross-fade button on the music tab which has a default of 5 seconds and go back to the Project Options Customize Tab and observe the value - it's "still" zero. Only if you manually "change" the value will there be anything other than zero in the cross-fade time slot "unless" you add a second music selection. Then clicking on the five second default tab will result in five seconds on both the first and second music selections being entered. I have no clue what you find "not true" about this unless your system and mine work differently. I've already said I believe that applying the five seconds to the first slide represents a bug in the logic. Best regards,LinI firmly believe that the implementation of the Crossfading function needs an overhaul so that it is only available when there are two or more items in a Track, and the user must consciously choose which two adjacent items the cross-fade is to be applied to. The only time the software makes the decision for the user is when there are just two items in just one Track. This whole subject is, to my mind, a classic example of when a vastly improved Help interface would be a great benefit.What I envisage would be that hovering the mouse pointer over the word Crossfading would result in a "Tool Tip" pop-up giving a brief description of what Crossfading was (e.g. overlaps two items of sound and applies a fade-out/fade-in at the overlap). That text would, itself, be a hyperlink to a full description of this function in the Help files. Every single button, every single option, every single field label should have the Tool Tip, with many of them also having that text act as a hyperlink into the Help manual. But this would have to be a whole new project for Igor and the team - and would have major implications for the translators. I think I'll open a new topic under Ideas and Suggestions so that this topic doesn't get hi-jacked.Peter Quote
fh1805 Posted January 21, 2012 Author Report Posted January 21, 2012 Lin,Sorry I didn't make it clearer. What I disagreed with was your concept that something was "off" even though the radio button was "on". Part of the discussion has been about consistency. To be consistent, either the radio button should be "off" and the time value should be zero or the radio button should be "on" and a non-zero time value should be presented. Right now if you go via Project Options...Music...Customize to the Audio clip properties we find that the radio button is "on" (implying that crossfading is "on") but the time value is zero (implying that crossfading is "off") It cannot be both "off" and "on". For true consistency, and correct logical presentation, in Audio clip properties the radio button should be greyed out until the user has selected which two items in the Track to crossfade. To implement crossfading the user would then click the radio button "on" and add their desired overlap time. The Crossfading button on the Project Options...Music tab should be greyed out unless there are two or more items in the Track. Its use should then result in the same time duration being applied to the start and end of ALL tracks (including a fade-in at the start of the first item and a fade-out at the end of the last item).This is another instance where a Tool Tip would be really useful. It would explain what that button is going to do and hyperlink to the detailed explanation of Crossfading in the Help manual.regards,Peter Quote
goddi Posted January 21, 2012 Report Posted January 21, 2012 Peter,I was nodding my head 'yes' as I was reading your post until I got to "Its use should then result in the same time duration being applied to the start and end of ALL tracks (including a fade-in at the start of the first item and a fade-out at the end of the last item) ."It is my understanding that the definition of Crossfading is that it is to be applied ONLY to the end of the first audio clips and the beginning of the second audio clip, not the start and end of the pair. Will you clarify your position on this?Now, can I be so bold as to offer another suggestion? Lets assume that Crossfading overlaps two audio clips with fading-ins and fading-outs. I would like to have an option called Overlap. I'd like an easy way to be able to do Crossfading without the fades. So I think Overlap would be a good addition. With Overlap, you would highlight two adjacent audio clips and enter a negative value, in seconds, that would move the second audio clip to the left placing the beginning of the second clip over the ending of the first clip, without fades. This can be done with Offset but it not as easy to do, especially if you have more than 2 clips. This seems to be more intuitive than using Offset. Thoughts?Just my thoughts.Gary Quote
fh1805 Posted January 21, 2012 Author Report Posted January 21, 2012 Gary,I like your idea of "Overlap" (= Crossfade without the fades) I think some users might find that very useful. My statement about "ALL" items is, I now realise, lacking one extra piece of explanation. I envisage the Crossfading button on the Music tab as providing a new or inexperienced user with a way of achieving a smooth blend of all their sound items, including a nice smooth fade-in to the start of the show and a smooth fade out to the end of the show - with just one click. To me, as a more experienced AV worker, who is comfortable using Audacity to assemble complex soundtracks, that looks like a "quick and dirty" solution. However, we need to make PTE easy to use, so that a novice user can achieve satisfactory results with the minimu of effort. The hope, then, is that they realise they can achieve even better results by taking more control over what is going on. In this particular case that would be switching to use the Audio clip properties and building the exact crossovers that they actually need.Hope this clarifies what was in my mind - but didn't make it into that previous post.Peter Quote
Lin Evans Posted January 21, 2012 Report Posted January 21, 2012 Back to the future - LOL...Isn't that "exactly" what PTE does right now? If you put in two mp3's, set crossfade to greater than 5 you will get a fade-in on audio selection one as well as the "cross-fade" ? If you give me a few moments - I'll create a "tone sample" demonstrating that visually.....Here ya go:http://www.lin-evans...te/tonedemo.zipThe procedure was load the two flat tone mp3's into PTE on a single channel as two mp3's (first tone 440 cycles, second tone 880 cycles). Next click on the five second tab and change to seven seconds. Now observe the audio waveform in the timeline. Fade in, tone, fade-out/fade-in overlap tone 2. No fade out on tone 2. Easy enough to just set a fade-out on tone 2.LinI thought that was what Gary was complaining about???Best regards,LinGary,I like your idea of "Overlap" (= Crossfade without the fades) I think some users might find that very useful. My statement about "ALL" items is, I now realise, lacking one extra piece of explanation. I envisage the Crossfading button on the Music tab as providing a new or inexperienced user with a way of achieving a smooth blend of all their sound items, including a nice smooth fade-in to the start of the show and a smooth fade out to the end of the show - with just one click. snip......Hope this clarifies what was in my mind - but didn't make it into that previous post.Peter Quote
Spock Posted January 21, 2012 Report Posted January 21, 2012 Você está falando sobre isso?Do you are speaking about this?SpockShock.zip Quote
davegee Posted January 22, 2012 Report Posted January 22, 2012 KFSD:There was a HUGE thread on KEEP FULL SLIDE DURATION.Before it was half way through the abreviation KFSD was adopted by most.I apologise for not using the full phrase - I thought that it was a universally accepted abreviation amongst those who are regulars.DG Quote
dadou Posted January 23, 2012 Report Posted January 23, 2012 KFSD:There was a HUGE thread on KEEP FULL SLIDE DURATION.Before it was half way through the abreviation KFSD was adopted by most.I apologise for not using the full phrase - I thought that it was a universally accepted abreviation amongst those who are regulars.DGThank you , Dave ! Quote
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