Sound distortion on TV

[fh1805]

That's the first time I have ever heard anyone mention that Level (Volume) Controls had an influence when Ripping MP3 files from CDs?

I'm not surprised. If the ripping software is doing a true rip and producing a WAV file, it is, to all intents and purposes, simply copying the 0s and 1s of the digitized sound from one file to another. That's an operation that is totally independent of the volume controls. It's kind of a special form of file copy. If the rip is producing an MP3 file then it is not producing a copy of what is on the commercially produced CD.

[Ray Groome]

Ray,

Yes ~ I agree with Dave on this one ~ if its already (overmodulated) "Clipped"

there is nothing you can do about it..except re-record it again but this time

use the "MP3-Loudness Software" to correct any chance of "clipping" thats if you

dont want to use Audacity. If the Files are still "clipped" there is definitely

something wrong with your PC-setup or the Sony-TV.(With Audacity try the default)

Copy of the "MP3-Gain-Program" here attached.

Dave,

The above is a typical example for you ~ All 'Commercial-Playable-Media' use some

form of "Compander" (Compressor/Expander) on the Studio side of things prior to

any subsequent "Print-Burning" on to CD or DVD. Sometimes with 'cheap' Copies as

in Supermarkets things go wrong, God knows why !!! ~ But in Ray's case he has many

Mp3 sources ~ they cant all be wrong ?

Ray,

If you can oblige, I would like to have a look at one of your Tracks to analyze it

and determine if the 'fault' is on your side or on the Sony side of things.

Perhaps with a reply Post you could attach a small Mp3-File <3.Mb in size.

Brian.Conflow)

Mp3-Gain Software below: 625kB. (Windows.Zip File)

++

As the music sounds OK on my computer when played through pte, I don't think there is anything wrong with the recording, but it might be overstretching the capabilities of the TV. I am attaching an extract from one of the tracts that is causing a problem. Should I be Normalising this in Audacity or processing it in MP3 Gain? I am confused!

Many thanks for your contribution.

05 What You Never Know (Won't Hurt You).mp3

[davegee]

Peter,

DG

[Ken Cox]

Ray

plays with no distortion at a normal sound level with wmp 12 at 50% volume control -

to 3 small amplifiers to speakers

ken

[xahu34]

Ray,

Did you run the video on your TV while using external loudspeakers?

BTW: Your MP3 is OK for me!

Regards,

Xaver

[cgbraggjr]

Ray - I had a similar problem that was solved by changing the output driver on the laptop. Somebody mentioned codecs, but this is different. With one driver I got heavy distortion on the TV (using the HDMI connection) and with another everything was OK. Start looking around in your Playback Devices to see if you have a choice. I can go with either "Realtek Digital Output" or with "AMD HDMI Output" on my desktop - these are the kinds of choices you should see on the laptop too.

Chuck B

[xahu34]

... these are the kinds of choices you should see on the laptop too ...

If I got it correctly, he does not use a laptop. He wants to run a video with the TV's media player from a USB device.

Regards,

Xaver

[davegee]

ray

i placed you clip in one of my shows. i made mpeg4 at default hd settings andtransfered to 16gb usb key.

it played on my sony via usb with no distortion and no issues.

my wife thought it was abeautiful track and could you please advise artist etc.

it is loud and will benefit from some adjustment but imho your distortion is down to your tv settings.

dg

[davegee]

all

ray needs you to do what i described!

dg

[Conflow]

Ray,

Apology for the small delay ~ I ran your Mp3 through Audacity & MP3-Gain ~ it was just a little high of no signifance.

See-Attachment-Report.

Also attached is the Tech-Data-Sheet for the Sony:46HX703 ~Its a very nice machine~ and it claims to Play Mp3

Tracks in 2-Channel-Stereo and full Home-Cinema in Dolby-Stereo (5-Channels) so that leaves 3 things to check:-

1)

TV-Settings: Sony Dolby-Stereo (Is 5-Channel AC3-Sound Format) yours is a Stereo-Mp3-File so try setting up the TV

for simple 2-Channel-Stereo. If that works O.K...If not proceed below.

2)

Put that Track (by itself) on to your Memory-Pen and send it to me directly from that Memory-Pen. Do as follows:-

Select the Full-Editor-Reply when replying to this. Hit the Browse-Button and when the Window opens select 'Computer'

and select the Memory-Pen from the list shown there. Now double-click its Icon and find the Mp3-Track. Click the Track

then Open and in the Reply-Panel select "Attach" and then Reply.

2) If it does not work there is something wrong with the USB and if it does work its down to the TV-Set-Up or the

PTE-Program which may be corrupted or perhaps there is a PC-Registry-error when writing to the Pen.

Brian.(Conflow)

[Ken Cox]

Dave see your email

ken

[Ray Groome]

Ray,

Apology for the small delay ~ I ran your Mp3 through Audacity & MP3-Gain ~ it was just a little high of no signifance.

See-Attachment-Report.

Also attached is the Tech-Data-Sheet for the Sony:46HX703 ~Its a very nice machine~ and it claims to Play Mp3

Tracks in 2-Channel-Stereo and full Home-Cinema in Dolby-Stereo (5-Channels) so that leaves 3 things to check:-

1)

TV-Settings: Sony Dolby-Stereo (Is 5-Channel AC3-Sound Format) yours is a Stereo-Mp3-File so try setting up the TV

for simple 2-Channel-Stereo. If that works O.K...If not proceed below.

2)

Put that Track (by itself) on to your Memory-Pen and send it to me directly from that Memory-Pen. Do as follows:-

Select the Full-Editor-Reply when replying to this. Hit the Browse-Button and when the Window opens select 'Computer'

and select the Memory-Pen from the list shown there. Now double-click its Icon and find the Mp3-Track. Click the Track

then Open and in the Reply-Panel select "Attach" and then Reply.

2) If it does not work there is something wrong with the USB and if it does work its down to the TV-Set-Up or the

PTE-Program which may be corrupted or perhaps there is a PC-Registry-error when writing to the Pen.

Brian.(Conflow)

First may I thank all of you who have contributed to this discussion. I appreciate the enthusiasm and effort you put into helping other members of the Forum.

Dave G asked about the source of the music I attached- it was from an album called Odyssey by Hayley Westenra from New Zealand.

I have now carried out some more tests and concluded the distortion on high notes only occurs when playing back from a USB stick when it is plugged into the TV. There is not a problem when the same USB stick is plugged into a Sony laptop which is then plugged into the TV via a HDMI connector. There is no problem when played back on my desktop with Creative speakers.

So the USB socket connection on my TV has its limitations. Vision is great but not the sound. I have not tried any external speakers to the TV. The TV speakers are set to Stereo.

I am attaching the music track as you requested- from the USB Stick, but I don't think you will find much wrong with that.

Many thanks

Ray Groome

05 What You Never Know (Won't Hurt You).mp3

[davegee]

Computers and TVs always amaze me!

It's incomprehensible why one TV will play media from a USB key and another TV (of the same make and design) will not play the same file without issues.

DG

[Conflow]

Hi Ray,

Just got that Track directly from your Mem-Pen and I'm doing a few tests on it.

Firstly, the Track played perfectly on my my Pc and Hi-fi System, but I would

like to ask a few quick questions: About the distortion you are hearing,viz:-

1)

Is this distortion a type of 'Lisping-effect' you are hearing on top notes ?

2)

Or is is a barely perceptable (annoying) type of 'Twitter' on the top notes ?

Brian.(Conflow)

P.S. I attach a modified version of your Track and let me know if it works ?

[Ray Groome]

Hi Ray,

Just got that Track directly from your Mem-Pen and I'm doing a few tests on it.

Firstly, the Track played perfectly on my my Pc and Hi-fi System, but I would

like to ask a few quick questions: About the distortion you are hearing,viz:-

1)

Is this distortion a type of 'Lisping-effect' you are hearing on top notes ?

2)

Or is is a barely perceptable (annoying) type of 'Twitter' on the top notes ?

Brian.(Conflow)

P.S. I attach a modified version of your Track and let me know if it works ?

Brian

My wife and I carefully listened to your version of the track -(inserted into the pte slideshow and taken through the 'Publish/ HD Video for PC & Mac' route before transferring to the memory stick and playing back on the TV USB socket)- and we did not notice any distortion.

I am having difficulty in describing the original distortion- it was not a lisping effect. It was not smooth, certainly annoying! Brittle and only occurring on the peak notes.

I will be interested to hear of your solution.

Many thanks for your efforts.

Ray Groome

[coopernatural]

Hi Ray,

Sounds like the input to your usb is a little too sensitive and is being overloaded from the audio side of your mp4.

Distortion heard on the peaks is the waveform being clipped. If you have no means to limit the audio within your TV menu,

then you will have to reduce audio levels on your mp4 file for your TV in future.

There may be a firmware update for your TV. I would check that out.

Sound quality through your Sony will never be that good,as is the case with most Flat screen units.

Miss Westerna’s voice is a challenge for most high end music systems and no doubt the recording engineer.

There is some distortion (not clipping though), compression and smoothing, both natural and processed on your recording,

but I would put that down to the recording engineer/equipment and the mp3 conversion.

In it’s raw state and with enough volume you could etch glass with her voice!

If you wanted to check the output visually for distortion, rather than just put trust in your ears,

you could record to your pc via the audio out from your TV. Play the captured audio back via Audacity and check the waveform.

Simply zoom in on the audio peaks. If all is good there will be no flattened tops. If you see flattened tops (clipping) then your recording is distorted.

You would need to experiment with your recording levels, by gradually reducing audio until the clipping disappears.

As a ballpark figure, I would start at around -3db. Brians’ lower output version is around 4.3 db below your original audio file.

The experts can guide you with regards to Audacity,as I never use it.

Davy

[Conflow]

Good Morning Ray,

You wrote.."

"I am having difficulty in describing the original distortion- it was not a lisping effect. It was not smooth,

certainly annoying! Brittle and only occurring on the peak notes"...

Yes thats what I was trying to describe ~ I call it "twittering" and it is a byproduct-artifact of Dolby-Surround

when running unsuitable Sound-media which I have quite a lot of experience with. I was trained by the Sony

Corporation in the 60'/70's and I maintained their equipment and Ampex and EMI and Dolby-NR-Systems

which were incorporated into many (Hi-end) Audio-Reproducers ~and later~ Dolby-Surround in Television's.

Your Sony is running Dolby-Surround-Sound Ac3(normal) and Dolby++Surround-HD which can handle up to

7-Channels but in Cinema-Film it can go up to 14-Channels. "Dolby-Surround is a very precise format" and it will

not tolerate any divergence from what it was designed for...(Dolby)DVD-Film-Discs and (Dolby)CD-Music Discs.

With (Dolby)CD-Music-Discs or copying any CD-Music-Disc for Dolby-usage it must be done to CD-Quality of

192.Kb/Sec (sampling-rate) with CBR(constant-bit-rate). Furthermore the Loudness-Level must not exceed 89.db.

Note: Volume and Loudness levels are completely different things. Volume-level is an increase in listening

level to the Industry-Log/A curve. Loudness-Level is a dynamic adjustment of the Acoustic (sound-envelope) where

'tiny' sounds are increased and 'creshendos' are reduced to prevent over-modulation. Dolby-SS is similar in that it

increases the level of Hi-frequencies during Studio-Recording and corrects this in Playback thus reducing the Studio

'Tape & System Hiss' which is then virtually inaudible on your Sound-Systems.(Its complicated).

What I done: I ran your Track in 'Audacity' ~ I reduced its Volume-level by -6.dB and exported it at 192.kB.Bit-rate

which restored its missing data content (you note the No:6 File is larger) then I reprocessed it in the MP3-Program to

below the 89.db (Loudness-default-level) and exported it to you. (essentially I re-created the CD-Disc Format in Mp3).

So if anyone is using Dolby-Surround-Format please retain the 'Sampling-rate 192.kB/sec/CBR' and reduce the CD-Copy

level by at least -6.dB (or use Loudness-Correction-Software) - that will work in most circumstances.

Ray I hope this has sorted your problem,

Brian.(Conflow)

(To Readers:- Apologies for the long-Post but once you know your're O.K)

[coopernatural]

Brian,

Maybe I haven’t read all the threads, but up sampling from 128 kbs, to 192 kbs does not replace missing data. It just makes for a bigger file.

You would need the original wav file to do a meaningful conversion/comparison.

Re-recording from the wav file to 192 kbs is still on the low side as far as quality is concerned.

For some, it does not matter and they struggle to hear the difference. It has spoiled a few AVs here though.

I am no ‘expert’, but I would put your your 192 kbs threshold to one side and go with 256 kbs cbr (reduced levels of course) at least to start off with.

Cool you worked for Sony way back in the 60's

Davy

[Ray Groome]

Good Morning Ray,

You wrote.."

"I am having difficulty in describing the original distortion- it was not a lisping effect. It was not smooth,

certainly annoying! Brittle and only occurring on the peak notes"...

Yes thats what I was trying to describe ~ I call it "twittering" and it is a byproduct-artifact of Dolby-Surround

when running unsuitable Sound-media which I have quite a lot of experience with. I was trained by the Sony

Corporation in the 60'/70's and I maintained their equipment and Ampex and EMI and Dolby-NR-Systems

which were incorporated into many (Hi-end) Audio-Reproducers ~and later~ Dolby-Surround in Television's.

Your Sony is running Dolby-Surround-Sound Ac3(normal) and Dolby++Surround-HD which can handle up to

7-Channels but in Cinema-Film it can go up to 14-Channels. "Dolby-Surround is a very precise format" and it will

not tolerate any divergence from what it was designed for...(Dolby)DVD-Film-Discs and (Dolby)CD-Music Discs.

With (Dolby)CD-Music-Discs or copying any CD-Music-Disc for Dolby-usage it must be done to CD-Quality of

192.Kb/Sec (sampling-rate) with CBR(constant-bit-rate). Furthermore the Loudness-Level must not exceed 89.db.

Note: Volume and Loudness levels are completely different things. Volume-level is an increase in listening

level to the Industry-Log/A curve. Loudness-Level is a dynamic adjustment of the Acoustic (sound-envelope) where

'tiny' sounds are increased and 'creshendos' are reduced to prevent over-modulation. Dolby-SS is similar in that it

increases the level of Hi-frequencies during Studio-Recording and corrects this in Playback thus reducing the Studio

'Tape & System Hiss' which is then virtually inaudible on your Sound-Systems.(Its complicated).

What I done: I ran your Track in 'Audacity' ~ I reduced its Volume-level by -6.dB and exported it at 192.kB.Bit-rate

which restored its missing data content (you note the No:6 File is larger) then I reprocessed it in the MP3-Program to

below the 89.db (Loudness-default-level) and exported it to you. (essentially I re-created the CD-Disc Format in Mp3).

So if anyone is using Dolby-Surround-Format please retain the 'Sampling-rate 192.kB/sec/CBR' and reduce the CD-Copy

level by at least -6.dB (or use Loudness-Correction-Software) - that will work in most circumstances.

Ray I hope this has sorted your problem,

Brian.(Conflow)

(To Readers:- Apologies for the long-Post but once you know your're O.K)

Brian

Thanks for all the background.

I seemed to be out of my depth! I opened the ripped disc in MP3 Gain and it processed all the tracks except the one we have been playing with- it objected to that one. That track will no longer play, I am unable to delete it (I need Administrator permission- what ever that means) and the disc will not let me rip it again! Help!! What have I done wrong?

Ray Groome

[Guest Yachtsman1]

If you are using WMP to rip the track & it won't, it is possible it is still in WMP's library and that is the reason why. You could download a free ripper such as Express Rip & try with that.

Yachtsman1

[Conflow]

Ray,

What PC are you using ~ Is it XP or Vista or Windows- ??

If it has locked you out ~ RH-Click the Task-Bar going across the bottom of the Screen ~ A window will open

like Example (below) No-1 ~ select "Task-Manager" and another window will open No-2 (below) now select the

Applications-Button on top and then press End-Process. That will close the running Program and un-lock you.

I have absolutely no idea why that should happen !! ~ did you have Windows-Player open at that time and was

the Track shown in the Playlist ?? ~ If so Windows stops you from modifying any Track ?? you're not the 1st

who has been caught out with that.

When editing always avoid Windows-Player it does things like "Digital-Rights-Protection" which is none

of its business ~ If you want a small effective Player I can let you have one.

The reason MP3-Prog "objected" to the Edited Track was because its Mp3/192.Kb/Sec where all the other

Ripped-Tracks were Mp3/128.KB/Sec ~ As I had advised, all your ripped tracks MUST BE Mp3/192.Kb/Sec

before processing.

Brian.(Conflow)

P.S. Above "Yachtsman~Eric is giving you good advice on Express-Rip".

[Conflow]

Brian,

Maybe I haven’t read all the threads, but up sampling from 128 kbs, to 192 kbs does not replace missing data. It just makes for a bigger file.

You would need the original wav file to do a meaningful conversion/comparison.

Re-recording from the wav file to 192 kbs is still on the low side as far as quality is concerned.

For some, it does not matter and they struggle to hear the difference. It has spoiled a few AVs here though.

I am no ‘expert’, but I would put your your 192 kbs threshold to one side and go with 256 kbs cbr (reduced levels of course) at least to start off with.

Cool you worked for Sony way back in the 60's

Davy

Davy,

All CD-Music Discs are recorded with PCM-Technology (Pulse-Coded-Modulation) its when they are

downloaded onto a Windows-PC they are packed into a .WAV-Container which Windows recognises

and then uses a (be-spoke) Microsoft-Codec to demodulate and play them. Its a common generality

mistake to describe them as Wavs.

(An analogy would be an AVI-Video packed into an MPEG-2 Container).

"MP-3 is a Physcho-Acoustic-System" which selectively 'picks-out' common-data within a Track and

suppresses other instances of that "data" until needed, whereafter it inserts a 'mimic' of the data

in the correct place and in this way by eliminating repetition it drastically reduced the File-size.

Yes the File can be scanned at a Higher-rate (and Higher-fidelity) which you can distinctly hear in

any comparison test. (This is solely a short description, you need to Google the rest).

Davy, the common requirement for CD-Disc is 192.Kb/Sec as it is for Dolby-Surround-Sound which

will not work properly unless you comply with the Design requirements. Dolby++HD can go very much

higher up to 6.Mega.BitRate/Sec for Cinema-Film but the CD-Media-material even for 340kB/Br/Sec

is virtually non-existant.

Brian.

[coopernatural]

Brian,

This has been a very interesting and amusing thread at times.

Yes I call cd audio wav files as most of us do, wrongly. We know what it is though,

AVI is just a container and most people don't get that.

The Fraunhofer peeps were pretty clever all things considered. Not infallible though

and back to the point I had made. You can't strip away chunks of data and magically bring it back.

Ray had stated that he was running in stereo mode.None of the Dolby effects and as the usb input will accept

mp3 audio I would have thought playback at a higher bitrate from a ripped audio CD would be the better way to go.

Well,at least a try.

Davy

[Ray Groome]

Brian

Sorted!

Thanks for your patience.

Ray G

[Conflow]

Davy you wrote,

This has been a very interesting and amusing thread at times. Yes I call cd audio wav files as most of us do, wrongly.

We know what it is though ~AVI is just a container and most people don't get that...dead on Ray!!

"The Fraunhofer peeps were pretty clever all things considered. Not infallible though and back to the point I had made.

You can't strip away chunks of data and magically bring it back".

Davy, I didnt say that ~ I said that resampling upwards improves the sound quality.... Explaination:...

This is due to the increased sampling rate of an existing 128.kB/Sec Mp3 and indeed sometimes it makes an "unplayable-File"

come alive again, and in Rays case it brought his 128.kB.File back into the Dolby-Fold (within Specs) without the distortion,

and yes of course the File size is increased due to the extra sampling involved. And you are correct..You cant make a Pig out

of a Sows-Ear ~ I hope I didnt inadvertently give the wrong impression.

Ray had stated that he was running in stereo mode. None of the Dolby effects and as the Usb input will accept Mp3 audio

I would have thought playback at a higher bitrate from a ripped Audio-CD would be the better way to go.

Davy, under normal circumstances you are quite correct ~ but unfortunately Stereo is still processed by the Dolby-Circuitry,in particular

the Dolby-NR-System (noise-reduction) is still running and with a design-spec of 192.Kb/Br/Sec its way ahead of its compeditors and

believe me its very much Studio quality due to the 'Studio-Companders' in usage which are not available to the average Enthusiast.

Brian.(Conflow)