Discovery....

[Lin Evans]

In searching for a solution to render a video which plays back virtually identical to a PTE executable when using complex animations, I have been disappointed with MP4 h.264 as a solution.

MP4 simply doesn't encode some complex animations smoothly. I created a PTE demo show which uses some of the opening sequences from my original PTE demo from a few years ago which is commonly used to test video card response because it has some complex animations which really challenge the GPU in many systems. This latest demo runs beautifully as an exe file, but the opening sequences which consist of a snowfall scene which is rotated and subjected to 3D transforms fail badly as an mp4 h.264 output.

In a search for a solution, I've tried high bit-rates, double pass encoding and myriad other combinations to try to find a video solution. This morning I tried creating AVI files with various codecs and found a solution which creates a video virtually identical to the exe file in quality.

By using the XVID MPEG-4 video codec with XVID high def, single pass profile, target quantizer 4.00 at max quality, I was able to create a video output virtually identical to the EXE file when played with the Kantaris Media Player. This video will not play smoothly when dropped directly in PTE, but will undoubtedly allow burning a PTE show to BluRay and probably to AVCHD which is virtually identical to the EXE version....

Anyone who would like to test this - here's a link to the video. You will need a suitable player. I suggest Kantaris Media Player (free) and also the free XVID codec which can be downloaded here:

http://www.afterdawn...codecs/xvid.cfm (older Windows versions) or here:

http://www.xvidmovies.com/codec/ (Win 7, Vista)

http://www.lin-evans...tingPTE_vid.zip (about 123 meg download)

Best regards,

Lin

[Ken Cox]

LIN

that codec does not appear to be for win 7

the video file is the onme i use to test with correct?

will test it shortly on the win 7 system with existing drivers and advise

ken

[Lin Evans]

Hi Ken,

The latest XVID codec is for all current Windows versions including Win 7, XP, Vista and 2000. The video file is not the same one you use to test with, it's the one which you can access via Youtube or download in exe format from the Wndoft site, but the one with XVID codec is only on the link here.

You have to have the XVID codec or it won't play.

Here's a link to the one I just installed on my Win 7 notebook - it works fine:

http://www.xvidmovies.com/codec/

Best regards,

Lin

[Ken Cox]

Lin played perfect on the "win 7 COOLER"

no jiggies/ jaggies/wiggles/squiggle's

detail sharp as a tack - color "spot on"

ken

[Lin Evans]

Hi Ken,

That's good to hear! It plays the same way on both of my systems (XP and Win 7) so I think it's a wrap... I hope Igor can put it into PTE (it's open source) and if the next version or version 8 has BluRay burn capability, this codec will provide far better performance than MP4 h.264 as it's presently implemented. The difference is like night and day for the opening sequence. With mp4 h.264 the "edges" of the snow scene break into two parts during rotation. It's as if there were two separate images "sandwiched" together front and back with a separation between them which is "visible" during rotation, but not really there because when I do a screen capture it's clean. It almost looks like a dropped frame situation during the 3D transform rotate.

The problem is that Youtube, Vimeo, etc., only accept MP4 h.264 and Flash as far as I can determine. I'm going to try to upload the XVID to Youtube later this afternoon and see what happens.

Best regards,

Lin

[xahu34]

Hi Lin,

You should not blame MP4, it is nothing but a container format (MP4). The compression standard AVC/H.264 is said to be very good, but it requires high computer power, if not special HW-support (AVC/H.264). So, it may be that your PC does not provide an appropriate support!?!?

The media player in my TV plays AVC videos quite well, but I had one case with decoding errors. This is the reason why I now use Xvid-encoded videos inside the MP4 container. But how to produce them? At present time, AVIs created with PTE cannot be larger than 2 GB. Therefore, I use the PTE's virtual AVI combined with VirtualDub to create an Xvid video inside the AVI container (VirtualDub's AVIs can be larger). Normally, I then use Xmedia Recode to copy the video into an MP4 container

Best regards,

Xaver

[goddi]

.....Anyone who would like to test this - here's a link to the video. You will need a suitable player. I suggest Kantaris Media Player (free) and also the free XVID codec which can be downloaded here: ......

Best regards,

Lin

==========================

Lin,

I played your file on several players. Here is what I found:

1-Quicktime-It would not play because it said I needed the "XVID component for Quicktime". I did not download it because I wanted to first see how it played with other player in my Windows7 Pro.

2-VLC-The show looked 'fuzzy'. Played well but did not look 'sharp'.

3-Windows Media Player- It looked 'shakey'. Hard to watch.

4-Kantaris-Played well but it also looked 'fuzzy', not 'sharp'.

5-Daum PotPlayer-This player has been my 'default' player for some time. When I played your file, it looked the best compared to all the others. I actually played your file in the PotPlayer at the same time as the others to see if I really saw a difference and I did. My eyes kept going over to the PotPlayer version. Images were sharper and the colors more saturated.

I don't know why there is a difference but I see a distinct improvement when using PotPlayer. See if you see the difference.

Gary

LATER: I just added screen shots of the white cat with the pink ribbons. One from Kantaris and one from PotPlayer. All I did was to rotate them.

[Lin Evans]

Hi Xaver,

I don't think it's a resource issue. If it's "special HVV support" then that's possible, but here's my experience. I have five computer systems at this location - three running Win XP SP3 and two running Win 7 (one Win 7 Professional and One Win 7 Home Edition). I also have a 40" Samsung LED 1080p Television. The XVID AVI version plays perfectly on all five computers and also on the Samsung. No shimmer, no jerky motion and excellent sharpness and quality overall. Multiple compiles using PTE to create the MP4 h.264 "all" play the same. The opening sequence is "terrible" on each. I've tried various bitrates, single pass, double pass and using PTE to convert to AVI. The playback is identical in each case on every computer as well as on the Samsung TV. The mp4 h.264 version uploaded to Youtube by Wnsoft plays the same way on each of my computers. The opening sequence is very bad when the 3D transform rotates are done. The 3D cube rotation is not smooth. With the XVID codec version it is perfect.

This is what leads me to believe that the XVID codec is simply superior for animation. As far as still images with minimal animation, the mp4 h.264 images look perfect, however, as soon as any complex animations are used the quality of playback is simply not satisfactory.

Whatever the cause - the mp4 h.264 output from PTE needs to be addressed because the output simply isn't suitable for animation.

Best regards,

Lin

[Lin Evans]

Hi Gary,

I see the difference but I can't account for it. On all five of my systems the output from Kantaris is perfect. There are lots of potential variables and it's difficult to know exactly what might cause the differences. Perhaps there are system issues which make a particular computer more compatible with one or the other player.

Best regards,

Lin

[Lin Evans]

O.K., I've clearly established for my purposes that the XVID codec with PTE creates a much better original AVI than the MP4 h.264 output from PTE, or the conversion from MP4 to AVI from the PTE output. It plays perfectly smooth on my systems as well as via a USB device on my Samsung 1080P television.

However - and it's a big HOWEVER, neither play correctly when uploaded to Youtube. The Youtube conversion has the identical issue as the MP4 h.264 played on my systems or on my television. Something in the conversion destroys the smoothness of playback on complex animations.

I uploaded the perfectly smooth XVID AVI to Youtube and the conversion looks essentially like the MP4 h.264 upload. It has the same issues so though there is a very "big" advantage in my experience with smoothness in play on my computers "and" on my television with the XVID codec, the improvements are lost when Youtube converts to Flash.

Best regards,

Lin

[xahu34]

... the improvements are lost when Youtube converts to Flash ...

The default video compression format at YouTube today is AVC/H.264, i.e. uploaded videos will be recoded to this format

Regards,

Xaver

[Lin Evans]

Hi Xaver,

I don't keep up with what Youtube is doing in terms of format - the last time I downloaded a Youtube video it came to me as Flash FTP so I assumed that's what they were still doing. Apparently they haven't changed older uploads to an AVC/H.264 format.

Whatever they are doing, it destroys the smoothness of the uploaded XVID AVI and the transcoded result looks very much like the MP4 h.264 created by PTE. Excellent for stills, but for complex animations, not so much.

Best regards,

Lin

[Conflow]

Lin,

Can you give us a Link to You-Tube ~ I would like to download your Video and see how

it works out here but I need to find it first ?.

Regards...

Brian.(Conflow

[Lin Evans]

Hi Brian,

The one which works perfectly is the XVID version which you can download here:

http://www.lin-evans...tingPTE_vid.zip

The one which was uploaded to Youtube by Wnsoft is here:

You will need the XVID codec to play the first one, but the difference is remarkable. The MP4 h.264 version just doesn't cut it...

Best regards,

Lin

[colin hill]

Hi Lin,

Your Youtube version played perfectly smooth for me.

Colin

[Conflow]

Lin,

When I tried to download your Video I got a 'Black-Screen' notice viz:- "Cant Download try again" this happened

3 times within the hour and finally it downloaded as an .mp4 (H264/mPEG-4AVC).

To me this looks as if it was "taken-down" and re-encoded and Re-Posted where after this time it worked properly and

with virtually the same quality as your Pte-Exe-Video creation ~ However the .mp4-Video is just over 40% the size of

your original 132.Mb-Avi-Video. It seems to me as if this was a YouTube problem !! (see Up/Down screenshot.)

To demonstrate the quality I ran up a small Pte-Exe here below as a Zip-File (no animations) and for those who

are interested in 'HD-Motion-Video' and have followed this Topic I posted my downloaded Copy to MediaFire (-57.Mb).

To those reading this I can assure you its well worth watching because it demonstrates what PTE can achieve and to

Lin ~ Well done...

Brian.(Conflow)

[Lin Evans]

Hi Brian,

It's really a strange issue that I see with the MP4 h.264 version which doesn't happen with the XVID avi version. In the opening scene, when the snow scene is rotated on the horizontal axis, there is a bifurcation of the image edge. It appears as if there were two images made into a "sandwich" and they separate slightly as they rotate. I see this on each MP4 that I create regardless of size or quality setting and regardless of single pass, double pass or bitrate. I put a copy on all five of my systems and it happens on each which all have different video cards and are either Win 7 or XP driven. The XVID AVI is perfectly smooth just like the executable. I uploaded the XVID version to Youtube and when it was transcoded by Youtube, it developed the same issue.

The strange thing is that the MP4 h.264 version plays properly for you and for Colin as well. To further test this, I loaded it on a USB card and played it on my Samsung 40" LED 1080p television and had the same issue. I also loaded the XVID AVI and it played perfectly on the Samsung.

I'm at a loss to explain the different responses which we are experiencing with the MP4 version. On my systems, it just isn't satisfactory. Tis a mystery!

Another similar mystery related to video is the difference on my development system (I haven't tried on my other computers) between the "Preview" mode and a created EXE file of video taken with my Nikon 1V1 camera. The videos are HD in MOV format. They play perfectly when I drop them in and use the preview, but when I create a sample EXE they are very "jerky." Even when I run them through the PTE converter they are jerky in playback in an exe format. The question arises as to the difference between the Preview mode and the created EXE file???

Best regards,

Lin

[Conflow]

Lin,

I have a feeling that its something to do with the FFdshow-Codec which is used in PTE.7 as a similar problem arose

under a seperate Topic elsewhere and finally Igor got around to 'Testing' for the problem where after he found a defect

in an FFDshow-Codec...Link below:

http://www.picturestoexe.com/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=post&section=post&do=reply_post&f=2&t=14685&qpid=96136

That would possibly explain why the "Post.Exe-Player" runs the Avi perfectly but the "Post.Converter-Player" shows the

problem and that points to a possible defect in the "MBox-System" of Video-Builder within the PTE-Folder. This would

also answer the problem experienced with YouTube and once they found it they corrected it and now there appears to be

a revised "Download-Code" which was not there yesterday. Although this is conjecture I have been using AVCHD as .mp4

and HD/Mpeg-4 with my Panasonic-FZ38 and FZ-48 Cameras for the past 4 years and I am very pleased with the results

and intend to buy the FZ-150 shortly.

Similar to your process ~ I convert my AVCHD to 'Avi-Lossless-Video' and work onwards from there ~ the only difference

being that I dont use Video-Builder as it wasn't fully developed 4 years ago, but in fairness to the WnSoft-Team they have

developed Video-Builder in record time...however they still have some way to go yet.

Hope this helps you...

Brian.(Conflow)

[xahu34]

... I have a feeling that its something to do with the FFdshow-Codec which is used in PTE.7 ...

ffdshow is a codec to be installed on a Widows system. PTE does not make use of any installed codecs when playing videos in a slideshow. It uses its own FFmpeg library that is contained in the Common folder of the program folder of PTE 7.0.

Regards,

Xaver

[Conflow]

Xaver,

Please stop 'parsing' my Post above ~ I am quite well aware where PTE uses its version of FFdshow which Igor

had refered to some time ago as being 'faulty (see below)...

http://www.picturestoexe.com/forums/index.php?app=forums&module=post&section=post&do=reply_post&f=2&t=14685&qpid=96136

I had said..."I have a feeling that its something to do with the FFdshow-Codec which is used in PTE.7"...unquote !!

Now if you have a possible solution for Lin's problem lets get it on the Table and go forward ~ not procrastinate.

Regards,

Brian.(Conflow)

[xahu34]

It's just a notice to distinguish between ffdshow and FFmpeg !

The difference is essential, and it should not be too difficult to understand

PTE does not use ffdshow, it uses FFmpeg, see here or here!

Regards,

Xaver