The Third Image

[The Image Suite]

Hi

Have downloaded UK but unable to open - have now tried downloading it twice and get the same thing each time..........if you are reading this Bussty, can you include say a notepad file and then zip the files please - I normally have more success with this format............thanks

[alrobin]

I had no trouble downloading and running "UK". There are some examples of "third image" but they are very fleeting and not as pronounced as Ron's example on Beechbrook. The dissolves are very well thought-out, however, in having just the right juxtapositions of slides dissolving into others, and the images, of course, are excellent.

Ron's short demo is a very good example of the power of PTE, combined with an image editor, in making more sophisticated "third images" than would be possible with two "ordinary" projectors. With digital techniques it is possible now to choose only the portion of the second slide which one wants to use as part of the "third image", whereas, with the older technology, this would not be possible, as the entire slide would have to be used.

[Ed Overstreet]

My two cents' worth on "the third image," mainly to elaborate a little on points made above --

A useful compositional rule to think about when taking photographs for possible use in AV, is to think about "negative space" as well as "centre of interest" in the photograph. "Negative space" is generally a large-ish portion of the photograph in which little or nothing is happening, often an area of relatively uniform colour or texture. By composing images so as to place both "centre of interest" and "negative space" areas in one of the "rule of thirds" points in the rectangle, one enhances the opportunities for creating third images in an AV transition in which an important element of the next image seems to grow out of the negative space in the previous image. If one tries to adhere to these compositional principles in photography, one generally increases the opportunities not only for creating third images but also decreases the number of "messy" transitions where "image clutter" dissolves into more "image clutter." I hope that explanation is relatively clear.

Of course one can artificially create negative space or clean up clutter in Photoshop, but I think it's easier and quicker to work on these things while taking the photographs rather than relying on time-consuming and sometimes unconvincing manipulation on the computer later.

The AV group in my club used to spend a fair bit of time in the intro workshops on the concept of the third image, back in the two-projector-and-dissolve-unit days. The third image has unfortunately slipped off the agenda now that we're all doing digital shows. It's good to see interest in this concept being revived here, since third images work just as well in digital as in "analog" shows if they're used thoughtfully and not as just another gimmick.

[Ken Cox]

The Image Suite

but unable to open

Sounds like ANTI VIRUS settings are incorrect -- it is an exe which is normally blocked

no problem getting or running it and enjoying Andrew's fine work -- i especially enjoy the "phone booth" dominoe effect -- on first view i thought they were "johnnie on the spot's" then i seen the windows

ken

[The Image Suite]

Hi Ed

Wise words indeed. I totally agree that it starts at the camera composition stage, and ofcourse it does mean that people are then shooting to a pre-conceived plan and for a specific purpose. Not only can this improve one's photographic skills, but I think the pre-planning of the a/v is vital. (That's why I mentioned earlier that I believe many a/vers are using digital a/v for nothing more than an electronic photo gallery, without pre-planning and without shooting for the a/v - much more 'oh, I have this selection of images I've taken on holiday, now how can I make the best a/v possible with what I have got?') - perhaps I'm being a tad unfair but, as I have said earlier in the forum, I have been concerned that use of the third image will disappear, unless we can revitalise it through discussions like this. Thank you for your valuable contribution, which was worth sizably more than the 2 cents you suggest!

The Image Suite

[The Image Suite]

Hi Ken

Thanks for that. I shall check it out and, I too look forward to seeing Andrew's work.

The Image Suite

[The Image Suite]

Hi Ken

Still unable to open the UK file - i am getting the following error message

Exception EListError in module UK.exe at 0006A48C

List index out of bounds (0)

Do you have any idea as to what this means, please?

Thanks

The Image Suite

[Alan Lyons]

Hi all,

Sorry i have not been involved in this thread for a while.I'm just back from a weekend in Southampton. Anyway, I agree with Ed that the third image is a concept which needs to be thought early on to new A/V workers and if you take the example given by "The Image Suite" of using P2E just to show a group of images, if the user understands what a third image is then most selections can be improved by testing images in secquence to see if a third image exists. I would suggest making a template for a 2 slide show with a long disolve which you can use to compare slides for disolves. Remember in most sequences only the author knows the order in which the holiday / event ran, so why not mix and mach if nessary to improve the look of the show?

I personally shoot to a story board and re shoot if nessary to make the third image work,

Alan

[The Image Suite]

Hi Alan

All music to my ears! It's great to hear that you shoot to a storyboard........so many people don't think that a storybord is necessary or simply relate storyboards to feature films or video - not so. As most of my work is commercial I have to shoot to storyboards (of some description), and shooting to order like that is half the fun for me.

I also agree, that if some of the new a/vers wish to improve their shows then they too should i) work to a pre-developed storyboard and ii) use a mixture of slides in a variety of orders or ways as you suggest.............but without overdoing the transitions. There are some great transitions within, not only P-t-E, but other a/v software, however I believe that when it comes to 'pure' a/v, the basics are either not addressed or not known. (Perhaps I'm being unfair - I don't know).

Is there an arguement to sub categorise the definition of 'audio-visuals'? I certainly do not object to the shows that I have seen but as I have mentioned before some, and only some, are nothing more than an electronic album set to music., and so much more could be done to improve the standards. What do you think folks?

[ContaxMan]

Half "tongue-in-cheek" dare I suggest that a short example showing similar (or the same) shots, first chosen fairly randomly then with the aid of a storyboard (supplied as a text file) would make this thread more accessible to those of us who are not experienced av'ers.

I wait with baited breath!

[The Image Suite]

Attending one of my many Digital Audio-visual Workshops could also have the desired effect! - see www.theimagesuite.co.uk

[The Image Suite]

[Alan Lyons]

Great to see this topic running on and on. With regard to Contaxman's suggestion I would say if a group either locally or on line could be given a group of slides with out script or music, and each was asked to compile a show from them you would find some very interesting results. We have often used this in Ireland in IPF workshops and it opens up the whole debate about secquencing and show content,

Alan

[ContaxMan]

Sounds like a good idea - will suggest it to our Camera Club cttee:

www.bishopthorpe-camera-club.com

[Maureen]

Sut Mae Image Suite!

Pob lwc i chi am dy gwaith newydd!

I know your local area very well

(lived there for many years) & greetings to all who know me....!

Also doing a show in Llanelli March 10th & promised one to Swansea soon.

Have you not produced a digital AV promo to promote your new workshops?

We could all download it and view your techniques (apart from having it played at some digital AV days!)

Hi Alan

Don't forget to call & see us next time you are so close to our "neck of the Woods"!

We're only an hour from Southampton. Would love to see you all again soon.

Great idea about the image swap.

We tried it many moons ago. The most imaginative was creating a sequence with only five (totally unrelated) images. The authors really had to plan and think that one out! Lots of creative use of Photoshop with many too.

We've tried giving out a theme, set pieces of music, music by a certain composer or from a certain period, even had a session where old slide sound sequences were handed out and swapped so they were completely reworked by someone else {made sure the original tape & details were kept too}. Have you tried to create a storyboard for a sequence using words ?

eg once....... unfortunately ....... suddenly ..... happily .... unexpectedly......

I've been out of action with illness (four months shingles ) - went to Lanzarote for a holiday with Photo Training Overseas -even the professionals there are now using PTE, but usually just as a "picture album" technique (but very well done). But I developed severe bronchitis there! Never mind it ain't the coughin that carries you off but the coffin....

Now trying to get some new work together (inbetween coughs & pills) & update web sites.

Hope all CDs arrived safely & could be played.

Have you all thought about submitting sequences to the 2004 International IAC Geoffrey Round digital AV Competition? It is on March 26th & 27th (see new details)

Closing date is March 1st (St David's Day - big day for all the Welsh )

so send them off to Peter Coles soon.

It is taking place up at Haworth, Yorkshire this year (very pretty place - great for a photographic holiday!). Unfortunately the original hotel venue has had to be changed but all the new details will be on the web site at www.avworld.org very soon.

You can meet & exchange lots of information at these events and also view a huge range of digital techniques created by top AV workers, using third Image techniques and other newer digital methods.You don't have to enter to attend but it is fun if you do.

The greatest benefit is not competing, but getting feed back from others after viewing your sequence on a big screen. Often someone else's chance remark can be extremely helpful and a minor adjustment can totally transform your work.

Bit like a face to face forum! Great to have so many helpful friendly people exchanging knowledge and help here. Once more thanks to all who produce such great work, utilities and advice to help us all so freely.

Best wishes

Maureen

http://www.digital-av.co.uk

[The Image Suite]

Hi Alan and ContaxMan

Excellent idea.......I think it is of great learning benefit to occasionally be 'willingly forced' down the route of extending one's imagination, and as you say, it would be fascinating to see the mixture of results.

Pleased that you are happy too to see this topic run.

Regards

[The Image Suite]

Hi Maureen

Diolch!

I had heard that you were making enquiries!

The promotional a/v CD is in development but, you know how it is..........a builder's house is always the last property to get built - and besides, it won't be released for a little while yet, for reasons best known to me for the moment! But watch this space............

Thanks for your contribution...........the News section on my website will keep you up to date......recommend you log-in to that every now and again............www.theimagesuite.co.uk

Regards

The Image Suite

[Alan Lyons]

Hi All again,

We seem to have set a few sparks flying! I wonder would any forum member be willing to host a file of small images which others could download, create a show, and post the result? This would allow all to see the results and perhaps start a " is that the best you can do? well watch this" competition. There is a rude name for this type of competition but I will not use it here

Hi Maureen,

glad to hear you are back on your pins again. We could have done with a safe house the weekend as we were hiding from a 70 year old aunt so as not to ruin a surprize. Next time the bailiffs say we can go on holiday, we may drop by,

Regards,

Alan

[Maureen]

Hi

I'm willing to host the images etc at www.maureenalbright.com if someone tells me in very simple language how to set the folders up for uploading & downloading the results!

All my web sites are DIY self taught - usually by the mistakes I make !

I am always happy to run any short digital AVs at our DAVEs (Digital AV Events) to promote others - so long as it doesn't offend / clash with that day's guest speaker - who might be wishing to plug something similar. And we have the time to show it. Need to have the CD in advance though. We can also put out some handouts or posters.

Best wishes

Maureen

http://www.digital-av.co.uk

[LumenLux]

Sounds like fun for everyone - creators and viewers.

I'd suggest keeping the rules rather permitting. Don't want to thwart any creative juice!

[The Image Suite]

Hi All

Don't wish to steal Maureen's (thunder) wonderful offer to host, but why don't we use the following forum site for this experiment.....there is already a facility to upoad/download the files there....you can join for free and then either host here on

p-t-e and/or there on Multi-Media Matrix www.community.barcin.net

This would save Maureen the anguish of having to develop her site to accommodate......take a look at the forum and then decide.........

Regards

The Image Suite

[Ed Overstreet]

Picking up on a point earlier in this thread, re visualizing third images -- and accept my apologies if this new member is covering ground covered earlier in older postings that I haven't seen:

A very easy way to visualize third-image possibilities is to create your image sequence draft, or parts of it, as layers in a single Photoshop file. By turning on one image at 100% opacity and varying the opacity of the layer above it, you can see in slow-motion what the fade would look like and what the intermediate possibilities are. Increasingly I am doing many of my image sequences as layers within one or more PSD files (main constraint is how big does the file get before my old PIII slows to a crawl). I start with a black 1024x768 pixel canvas and place the images in transparent layers above that canvas with the image sizes around 800x600 pixels, giving me the option of re-positioning images within the canvas as one way of helping align key elements in adjacent images. This also opens up options of multiple images on one canvas, but that's not third-image it's separate images, another thread entirely.

I prefer to do the visualization in Photoshop rather than within PTE or other AV software, because in Photoshop when I see problems or opportunities I can deal with them immediately. But everyone has a different workflow and preference for using software tools, as I've observed during the AV and Photoshop workshops in our club.

[LumenLux]

Ed, that sounds like a really good way to approach the possibilities. This whole topic has given me many good ideas. Now if I could just find the forum that will provide the time for me to try the ideas.

As for hosting the envisioned examples and competitions, I would certainly endorse the above idea to go with Multi-Media Matrix . Bart has always been a dedicated part of the whole PTE experience. If he is generously able to accomodate the project, that would seem good to me.

[The Image Suite]

Hi Ed

Great contribution Ed......thanks. Yes, indeed you can use Photoshop to preview the third image and make the necessary adjustments as you rightly say. I don't know to what extent you have been involved with twin projector a/vs, but try casting your mind back to pre-Photoshop image manipulation days! Many 'poor devils' (used affectionately) had to use slides and sandwich them together - that was the equivalent of Photoshop!

As you say, how big does the file become using your method? I use an alternative software (the name of which I am banished to use here in the PTE forum - but will happily discuss in Multi-Media Matrix!) where you can easily overlap adjust and sandwich images with reduced opacity.....within the a/v software and I have to confess that my preference is this rather than building images in Photoshop. (I am trying hard not to become a Photoshop junkie!).

Regards

The Image Suite

[The Image Suite]

Hi LumenLux

Hosting the examples/competitions

I am pretty confident that Bart will oblige!

Pleased that this topic has struck a cord and opened up a few more horizons. I have a few more hot topics to throw in to the pot, but they can wait!

Regards and thank you for your valuable contributions to this forum.

The Image Suite