Canvas Size not working as expected

[goddi]

Greetings,

In a response in another posting of mine, Artem recommended that I use the Canvas Size to solve a question I had. It did help in part, but it caused me to question why the Top/Bottom setting did not seem to work in a similar fashion as the Left/Right setting. His response was as follows:

"Canvas Size determines which part of original video file is displayed. It doesn't control at which size it is displayed, i.e. canvas size is not the zoom. If your video had 100% zoom before you reduce canvas size, it will remain at 100%.

The result might appear as 'zoom in' since fewer pixels are fit in the same size. To avoid that effect, you have to reduce zoom accordingly.

You can ask Dave (davegee) for additional information. He knows a lot about this feature, and might give you some practical advice. "

I am not sure I understand this explanation. I am posting my question so that, perhaps, it can be explained in more detail. I am attaching several screen shots of what I see as perplexing to me in the way the Top/Bottom setting does not react in a similar way as does the Left/Side setting. What is happening with my results with the Canvas Size seems to contradict Artem's response. So what am I missing?

Thanks... Gary

[davegee]

In order to make the final image the same proportions on screen at 100% you have remove a % from the top, bottom and sides in the proportions according to the aspect ratio. You cannot take the same percentage off all around - you are altering the aspect ratio.

It fits to the height of the screen according to the 100% setting of Zoom in Animation.

It also might be better to use Pixels instead of percentage even though the pixels are converted to percentage "behind the scenes".

A percentage could result in "parts of pixels" which have to be rounded up or down - if you start by taking off whole pixels the resulting percentage will be correct.

DG

P.S. Do it with a square image and it will behave as you want it to.

[davegee]

Further information.

If you do a little search you will find that I have covered this before. In order to put a line (border) around an image and maintain the aspect ratio you need to take (for instance) 5 pixels off all around in Canvas before applying a 5 pixels Border all around.

Same principle.

DG

[goddi]

Further information.

If you do a little search you will find that I have covered this before. In order to put a line (border) around an image and maintain the aspect ratio you need to take (for instance) 5 pixels off all around in Canvas before applying a 5 pixels Border all around.

Same principle.

DG

==========================

Greetings Dave,

I have not used the 'Adjust Image and Border' function much before so I am new to trying to understand it. I am only dealing with the Canvas, not the Border function. First of all, I understand the traditional 'Canvas' function is supposed to add a frame around the image. So to me, the PTE's Canvas function is mislabeled. The 'Border' function actually does this (though I don't like the way it adds the border and, at the same time, reduces the image size). But that is another story that, if I remember right, was discussed some time ago. I have not looked into that yet.

So, in my mind, the Canvas function is not really doing the traditional Canvas function of just adding a boarder around an image without changing the image's size. I initially used it to trim (or crop) out the wavy edges of an added video. I only used a small setting so I did not notice how it was slightly altering the video's viewing size.

If we can agree that this is not really creating a Canvas (since it only reduces the size of the image), I still do not understand why the Top/Bottom setting is not reacting the same way as the Left/Right setting. If the Left/Right settings brings in (or crops) the left and right sides of the image, then I would expect the Top/Bottom settings to bring in (or crop) the top and the bottom of the image, without changing the image's or video's proportions (such as zooming in as it does with the Top/Bottom settings).

I did search the Forum but I could not find any discussion relating to this issue.

Gary

[davegee]

Gary,

Your idea of what the Canvas Function does or should do is different to mine - so I can't really "agree" with you.

I've been using Canvas extensively on the Custom Transitions and Styles and it "does what it says on the tin" from where I am sitting. Call it whatever you like it adjusts the size of the image you are working on by "cropping" or removing pixels from the top, bottom and sides. It adjusts the Canvas.

The FIT function (100%) is giving you the effect you are seeing and not what you are doing to the Canvas.

Try it on an image at 50% and see if it makes more sense? Make an image with a 10 pixel border in your image editor and then take away 10 pixels from each side in PTE / Canvas.

Open up or Load this:

http://www.picturest...322-davegee-15/

(Blocks - 64)

Analyse it and perhaps it will give you a new insight into the possibilities of the Canvas Function.

DG

P.S.

[goddi]

Gary,

Your idea of what the Canvas Function does or should do is different to mine - so I can't really "agree" with you.

I've been using Canvas extensively on the Custom Transitions and Styles and it "does what it says on the tin" from where I am sitting. Call it whatever you like it adjusts the size of the image you are working on by "cropping" or removing pixels from the top, bottom and sides. It adjusts the Canvas.

The FIT function (100%) is giving you the effect you are seeing and not what you are doing to the Canvas.

Try it on an image at 50% and see if it makes more sense? Make an image with a 10 pixel border in your image editor and then take away 10 pixels from each side in PTE / Canvas.

Open up or Load this:

http://www.picturest...322-davegee-15/

(Blocks - 64)

Analyse it and perhaps it will give you a new insight into the possibilities of the Canvas Function.

DG

P.S. http://www.picturest...post__p__107766

http://www.picturest...post__p__105543

http://www.picturest...post__p__105532

============================

Dave,

Here is what I find is the definition of adjusting a Canvas:

"When you modify the canvas size of an image, you either increase or decrease the amount of area of the image canvas. This means that adding to the canvas size will add blank area around the image (or fill it with the background color if there is only one layer). Conversely, if you decrease the canvas size, the image will be cropped, meaning you will lose some of the image depending on where you crop it."

It seems to be used mostly for adding a background to an image. But it also says it can crop an image. The PTE's Canvas adjustment only crops an image. So this is where there is confusion. The PTE's Canvas adjustment will only crop an image but it is not consistent in the results when you compare the Left/Right and the Top/Bottom results. It crops the image only in a decreasing way, not increasing (adding a blank area). When in Photoshop, it is clear that the main use is to add a frame around the image.

Not sure what you mean by 'FIT'.

I looked at your Block-64 transition. I looked at it in the Edit mode in one of my shows. But that is way above my head so I don't know how to deal with it or how it relates to my question.

The first of your 3 links to the Forum doesn't work. But I don't see how the other discussions relate to my question.

It seems to me that the 'Canvas' should really be called 'Crop', and the Top/Bottom setting should be made to work like the Left/Right setting work. You want me to work with a border but that is not part of my question. I am trying to exclude all other inputs and work only with the 'Canvas' settings tab. The 'Canvas' tab just does not make sense to me.

Just my 2 cents.

Gary

[davegee]

Hi Gary,

One last try.

Add a 1920x1080 image to a 1920x1080 16:9 project (FIT to slide Mode).

In Canvas, remove 5% (96 Pixels) from the left and right.

Remove 5% (54 Pixels) from the Top and Bottom. (The image is still a perfect fit?).

Click on SIZE in the "Size/Position...." window.

You should now have an un-equal Space/Border all around your Image?

If you want an equal sized space/border all around your image, remove an equal amount from each side - e.g. 54 Pixels (or 2.8125% from the left and right and 5% from the Top and Bottom).

DG

[goddi]

Hi Gary,

One last try.

Add a 1920x1080 image to a 1920x1080 16:9 project (FIT to slide Mode).

In Canvas, remove 5% (96 Pixels) from the left and right.

Remove 5% (54 Pixels) from the Top and Bottom. (The image is still a perfect fit?).

Click on SIZE in the "Size/Position...." window.

You should now have an un-equal Space/Border all around your Image?

If you want an equal sized space/border all around your image, remove an equal amount from each side - e.g. 54 Pixels (or 2.8125% from the left and right and 5% from the Top and Bottom).

DG

============================================

Greetings Dave,

I do exactly what you have described. I see the results. But my point is that the results are not intuitive. I think that since you are what I would call an expert in these matters, use the function and get results. However, I am a mere mortal that would like menus to be intuitive. />

I stick by my guns that the 'Canvas Size' is incorrectly labeled. When in Photoshop, for example, its Canvas adjustment will allow you to put a white (or any color) frame around the image (not changing the image size). The PTE's Canvas Size actually crops the image. Not only that, but the Left/Right setting reduces the image size (or crops it) and the Top/Bottom actually increases the image size.

For this tab to be intuitive, it should be renamed something like 'Image Adjustment' and the Top/Bottom setting should not increase the size of the image but decrease it in the same manner as the Left/Right setting. Yes, you are changing the canvas size (and only in a negative direction), and not in the traditional way of its definition.

Probably, at this point, we will have to agree to disagree. But it has been another learning adventure. />

We really have some good discussions on this forum but I wish other would add there opinions, too.

Added Later:

I was just poking around with this function and I noticed a little bit of a strange reaction in the Canvas Size. If each setting is set to zero, and then I start adding to only the Top setting, the image expands to the left and right sides, as mentioned above. But at about '80', it stops expanding left and right, and starts to actually move the Top edge down as I expect it to do from the beginning. Ok...so why does it do that? I get the same response with the Bottom setting. As I mentioned before, the Left/Right edges start to move in immediately.

Added even later:

I have been testing this strange reaction on different show, images and videos. I am getting different results. On another video, the Top started to move down instantly. On another video, it started to move down much latter than the '80', as shown above. On an image, it expands out and then Top started to move down at about '177'. What can be causing these different reactions?

Much thanks... Gary

[davegee]

Gary,

The Canvas Control in the Adobe Product (which I don't use) will also allow you to work in the same way as the PTE Canvas i.e. to Crop. (At least it did the last time I used it).

WRT your last couple of paragraphs I can only suggest that you do a little more research into ASPECT RATIO. Couple that with what you are doing and the effect of it on Aspect Ratio, when you are fiddling with the Top, Bottom and Sides controls. Also consider the "Fit to Slide" Option. Try it out with Cover Slide as well?

Work out the Aspect Ratio at the point when your image begins to move in a different direction? That will give you a hint as to WHY it does it.

What you are seeing is perfectly logical if you consider all of these factors and bring them all together.

PTE is beginning to be a complex bit of machinery with many interactive elements and you have to consider them all.

DG

[jt49]

Gary,

You should not compare PTE and Photoshop. In Photoshop (which is an image editor) you see an image at a particular percentage of its size, and you can change this percentage, but this change is not relevant for the overall situation. PTE is a presentation program. If you change the percentage for an image in PTE you have consequences when running the show. It has to be well-defined how to represent an image at 100%, and there are 2 possibilities (Fit to slide, or Cover slide). If you reduce the top and bottom part of an image using the canvas function, you will obtain a new image with a new aspect ratio. And this new image, too, has to follow the overall rules for Fit to or Cover slide. You may remove your image from PTE, open it in Photoshop, and reduce the top and bottom part there using the Photoshop canvas function. Then re-insert the modified image into PTE, and you will obtain the same result as using the canvas function in PTE.

Regards

jt

[goddi]

Gary,

You should not compare PTE and Photoshop. In Photoshop (which is an image editor) you see an image at a particular percentage of its size, and you can change this percentage, but this change is not relevant for the overall situation. PTE is a presentation program. If you change the percentage for an image in PTE you have consequences when running the show. It has to be well-defined how to represent an image at 100%, and there are 2 possibilities (Fit to slide, or Cover slide). If you reduce the top and bottom part of an image using the canvas function, you will obtain a new image with a new aspect ratio. And this new image, too, has to follow the overall rules for Fit to or Cover slide. You may remove your image from PTE, open it in Photoshop, and reduce the top and bottom part there using the Photoshop canvas function. Then re-insert the modified image into PTE, and you will obtain the same result as using the canvas function in PTE.

Regards

jt

====================

Greetings Dave and jt,

I did a test to see if, as you both say, that I would get the same results with PS and with PTE. With PTE, I put in 50px in each setting. With PS, since there are only two settings, I put in -50px in each. In the attached image, you will see that they don't compare exactly.

Ok, we should not compare PS with PTE. But the problem is that PTE calls this function 'Canvas' but it really does not do what the Canvas function of an image editor does, such as add a border around the image. So, to be clearer, PTE should not call it 'Canvas'. All that PTE's Canvas tab does is crop the image. It is a useful feature but a bit strange to grasp, at least for me.

Now just wait for questions on the Animation tab!!!:)/>

Gary

[davegee]

The Animation Tab in the "Border and Canvas" Tool:

I think that, if you search back far enough, you will find that Lin explained this a looooooong time ago.

Animation, in this case, refers to the animation of things like "Animated GIFs"? (Question mark denotes "possibly").:)/>

I'm sure that someone will correct me if I am wrong?

DG