Test of Color Management

[Igor]

Regarding this topic

Please download this test application:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/27544810/pte/Test-Color-Management-2.zip

Click the Open button and load your JPEG image with a embedded color profile.

The ZIP archive includes one sample JPEG image with a color profile. Try with this and with your files.

You'll see two variants on the screen:

1. Without color management on the left side (like PicturesToExe - all versions).

2. With color management on the right side.

Is it what you need?

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Sorry, try this link:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/27544810/pte/Test-Color-Management-2.zip

The colour managed image looked washed out.

Regards Eric

Yachtsman1.

[Politer]

Igor ,

thanks for your effort .

I assume that the right picture reflects my current Monitor Profile (like any other Windows application which supports Color Management and applications like Photoshop ) .

I believe that is what I asked for several times .

Regards - Paul

PS: all the Pictures , I displayed with your test , look by far better in the Color management version

[Lin Evans]

Hi Igor,

The color managed ProFoto image looks correct - the profile dll seems to be doing what is expected. This looks correct on each of my multiple systems and displays.

Best regards.

Lin

[davegee]

As above.

DG

[PGA]

I do not use colour profiles. I see no difference between the pairs of images. This, to me, is good. It means nothing is being added that I do not want adding.

regards,

Peter

[denwell]

Your managed image (right)looks better than the left - colours more vibrant with no obvious yellow cast.

My own images, like Peter's, are not profiled and as such I see no difference when viewing them in your app.

[jt49]

This application obviously processes the embedded color profile of the given image. It seems to convert the image to a color space similar to AdobeRGB. But it does not care for the output profile. It always delivers the same result independent from Window standard profile in the Windows color management settings. I toggled several times between sRGB and AdobeRGB while the monitor itself remained at sRGB. A color managed image viewer did show the expected reactions on the changes of the Windows profile settings, the WnSoft application did not.

Regards,

jt

[goddi]

Greetings,

Is this only for viewing PROfotoRGB images?

I opened some sRGB images and, when looked at full screen, the colors looked similar between the two windows. However, when looking closer at the images (sRGB) at full screen, the image on the right (Color Management) seems to be a just a little less sharp or a bit softer than the one on the left (No Color Management). I don't know if this is just a mental thing or my monitor, but there does seem to be a slight difference in the sharpness. Any others see this????

Gary

[Lin Evans]

Hi Gary,

Color management has no affect on sharpness other than control of adjacent colors which might have some subliminal effect but no real change in edge contrast which is essentially what USM does. All it does is make the actual colors correspond to the preset of the color space which could change hues and brightness of various colors depending on the settings of the display device.

Best regards,

Lin

[goddi]

Hi Gary,

Color management has no affect on sharpness other than control of adjacent colors which might have some subliminal effect but no real change in edge contrast which is essentially what USM does. All it does is make the actual colors correspond to the preset of the color space which could change hues and brightness of various colors depending on the settings of the display device.

Best regards,

Lin

==================================

Lin,

Yea...it is probably just my eyes and the angle of how I am looking at my monitor. On the right side, I have a bright window that could be affecting how I perceive that side of the monitor. It is really minor, so it must just be me.

Thanks...

Gary

[Ken Cox]

I do not use colour profiles. I see no difference between the pairs of images. This, to me, is good. It means nothing is being added that I do not want adding.

regards,

Peter

as above by Peter, Dave and Lin

ken

[Ken Cox]

myself, I use the Macbeth Colorchecker -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ColorChecker

- still available --

http://www.amazon.com/X-Rite-MSCCC-ColorChecker-Classic/dp/B000JLO31C

- full size card cost me +- $60 Canadian 35-40 yrs. ago

and the 18% Kodak Gray cards

when documenting powerplant equipment failures you had to be spot on as to color

ken

[jt49]

The colour managed image looked washed out ...

You are right! In an sRGB environment the "color managed" image on the right hand side looks flat. It is the same effect that you see when viewing AdobeRGB images in an sRGB environment. As I said above: This application only cares for the input color profile (and it seems to perform a conversion to AdobeRGB), but it ignores the output color profile. In cases where the output color space is different from AdobeRGB, the images on the right are shown in wrong colors.

Regards,

jt

[potwnc]

The color managed image looks much better on my systems.

[davegee]

Perhaps we should compare the "colour managed" image with the same image in an exe?

DG

[Igor]

Left image shows same colors as in EXE shows.

Right image - with applied ICM color profile. Please compare colors with Photoshop.

[Igor]

jt49,

Please look same JPEG with color profile in Photoshop. Compare opened image with right image in this test application. Do you see the difference?

This test application should load two color profiles - embedded ICM in JPEG file and color profile of default monitor. Probably in your case the second profile was not loaded correctly.

[Urmas]

Regarding this topic

2. With color management on the right side.

Is it what you need?

YES! That's exactly we were talking and longing about!

Just for the curiosity, tested your small application with images having different profiles (sRGB, Adobe RGB, even Whacked RGB) and on two different computers (both Win7 Ultimate 64-bit), desktop computer with NEC PA241w (Adobe RGB gamut), Dell M4400 laptop with nearly Adobe RGB gamut display and laptop with projector (LV-8320) with nearly sRGB gamut. Everything calibrated. And results were as expected - color management works and results are as accurate as is particular workflow.

Cant wait PTE to be color managed.

And as a byproduct - the small test application you made, is an excellent tool to show to the audience the importance of color management. Many thanks Igor for that already!

[Igor]

Thanks for your responses!

Honestly I'm not expert in color management yet. My understanding of this subject regarding monitors:

1. In desktop mode of Windows all applications can send only images in sRGB formats. Because Windows Vista/7/8/8.1 uses DirectX 3D technology to render the user interface. And Windows use sRGB textures to render interface of applications.

So we can perform only transformation of Adobe RGB / ProPhoto RGB to sRGB color space. This test utility works this way.

2. The most likely it's possible to use more wide color space natively if use exclusive fullscreen mode of Direct3D. You'll get true wide colors of your pictures, but only in fullscreen mode (preview or EXE show), not when you work in the main window of PicturesToExe.

This is suitable for professional monitors capable to display more wide space than sRGB.

I'll explore this subject.

P.S. Please take into account that images in JPEG in Adobe RGB or ProPhoto RGB color space have some issue with gradients, because JPEG is only 8 bit per channel.

[Urmas]

Thanks for your responses!

Honestly I'm not expert in color management yet. My understanding of this subject regarding monitors:

1. In desktop mode of Windows all applications can send only images in sRGB formats. Because Windows Vista/7/8/8.1 uses DirectX 3D technology to render the user interface. And Windows use sRGB textures to render interface of applications.

So we can perform only transformation of Adobe RGB / ProPhoto RGB to sRGB color space. This test utility works this way.

2. The most likely it's possible to use more wide color space natively if use exclusive fullscreen mode of Direct3D. You'll get true wide colors of your pictures, but only in fullscreen mode (preview or EXE show), not when you work in the main window of PicturesToExe.

This is suitable for professional monitors capable to display more wide space than sRGB.

I'll explore this subject.

P.S. Please take into account that images in JPEG in Adobe RGB or ProPhoto RGB color space have some issue with gradients, because JPEG is only 8 bit per channel.

1. As far as I have read and experienced, sRGB is not (or does not need to be) Windows internal color space. Windows assumes by default, that RGB values without color profile, are in sRGB and treats them accordingly. For example that's why Windows icons look oversaturated on wide gamut display - bmp-s do not have color profiles and the same RGB values result different color in Adobe RGB space. To multiply RGB values from 30:30:30 to 60:60:60 there is no need to consider color profile at all. Math is always the same. But the resulting colors, either 30:30:30 or 60:60:60 are different with different profiles attached. It is important to understand, that no RGB colors are absolutely defined unless particular color profile is attached (or assumed).

Actually, in Windows 7 (presumably in 8, don't remember about Vista) you can define any color profile to be Windows default under advanced color management settings. The only thing it changes, is how Windows treats RGB values without color profile.

2. Color management is not the case of using wider color space only. Also slideshow with sRGB images need color management for proper output. The idea behind color management is to match input colors to output device gamut as close as possible. You need calibrated displays/projector for it to understand and use it. And you need to work with images having color profile tags.

Color management is an universal concept and universal need. As your small test application clearly showed, you can have an input file of any RGB space, the profile is understood, corrected with monitor profile and displayed at its best. The same method works universally.

Definitely, the key is to have both PTE preview and exe color managed. Although, when color management module is added it should be usable everywhere.

You are right about 8-bit ProPhoto RGB image gradient problems. Nobody in pro world uses ProPhoto RGB with 8-bit images. And for practical purposes it is still reasonable to limit PTE input with 8-bit images (16-bit doubles the file size) since most video card output will be 8-bit anyway for a while. 10 bit is coming very slowly.

So it rules out using ProPhoto RGB yet. But 8-bit Adobe RGB images do not have any of those problems in practice. And to repeat once again: color management is not about sRGB or Adobe RGB color gamut. It is about matching input colors to output device colors as close as possible. Once the workflow is color managed, you can use either color spaces on any calibrated display/projector. And get best possible results. And when hardware enables to start using 16-bit images, color management is still the same.

[CorVdK]

Large differences in Igor's JPEG test:

Igor's photo: Properties | Details | Color Management: no value.

Test Left (no color management): washed-out colors, Right (color management): normal colors.

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My Photo 1: Properties | Details | Color management: not calibrated

Test Left (no color management): more visible grayscale, Right (color management): beautiful colors.

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My Photo 2: Properties | Details | Color management: sRGB

Test Left (no color management): exaggerated colors, Right (color management): natural colors.

In Photoshop, Photo 2 (sRGB) appears in Variations: Original: with the natural colors, Current image: the exaggerated colors.

Greetings,

Cor

[Igor]

Yes, we can do color management in future PicturesToExe as you see in this test application.

If it's OK, we start this work.

[Urmas]

Yes, we can do color management in future PicturesToExe as you see in this test application.

If it's OK, we start this work.

Many thanks in advance!

[jt49]

... This test application should load two color profiles - embedded ICM in JPEG file and color profile of default monitor. Probably in your case the second profile was not loaded correctly.

Here are my settings:

• I use the monitor OSD and acitivate AdobeRGB or sRGB, so the monitor runs using a factory calibrated color space (hardware calibration).
  
• The monitor runs as PnP-Monior (Standard), no color specification in the driver settings.
  
• In the Windows Color Management tab, the correcponding color profile is assigned to the Standard Monitor
  

These settings work well, with Photoshop, and with IrfanView (if color management is enabled, and the output is set to use the current monitor profile). It seems to me that the WnSoft application does not look at this assigned color profile.

Regards,

jt