Test of Color Management

[Igor]

jt,

Please wait, this code is not finished. We'll prepare the new test soon.

Please send me screenshot of our the test application (with two picture) and screenshot of same image in Photoshop. I'll look.

[jkb]

I do not use colour profiles. I see no difference between the pairs of images. This, to me, is good. It means nothing is being added that I do not want adding.

regards,

Peter

I also do not use colour profiles. But my cameras are set to take jpgs in sRGB & I export from Photoshop in sRGB.

All my own images look exactly the same in your test.

I very rarely have any problems when giving my shows on various different club projectors. Although occasionally a club may have set up their projector to be over saturated so the colours look wrong.

But looking at some images I have from other people they do look different. Some look better with NO colour management, while others look better with it. I have no idea what the profiles if any, of these images are.

If you implement this feature, I think it is essential that the user has the option to be able to switch it on or off, by Project, but also with an option to switch on or off by image.

Jill

[jt49]

... Please send me screenshot of our the test application (with two picture) and screenshot of same image in Photoshop. I'll look.

I'll send you a screenshot via e-mail.

Regards,

jt

[Urmas]

Here are my settings:

• I use the monitor OSD and acitivate AdobeRGB or sRGB, so the monitor runs using a factory calibrated color space (hardware calibration).
  
• The monitor runs as PnP-Monior (Standard), no color specification in the driver settings.
  
• In the Windows Color Management tab, the correcponding color profile is assigned to the Standard Monitor
  

As much as I have read and understand color management, using AdobeRGB1998.icc as monitor profile does not work. That profile is to be used by image editing software when describing colors. If you trust your monitor factory calibration, then you should have proper monitor profile (usually having icm extension) associated in Windows. You will get it automatically when installing display driver (or find necessary profiles from the software disk that came with the monitor).

BUT

No hardware factory calibration is ever perfect. The proper way to get your monitor color managed is to calibrate your monitor with calibrator (X-Rite or ColorSpyder). During calibration required icm profile will be created automatically and you can use it as correct profile for your monitor. The same procedure applies for projectors.

[jt49]

ICC Frequently asked questions (The International Color Consortium, http://www.color.org)

Q. Are there any differences between profiles with ".icc" and ".icm" extensions?

A. The answer is no. '.ICC' and '.ICM' files should be identical except for the suffix. The .ICC suffix was originated by Apple and Windows uses .ICM.

[Urmas]

ICC Frequently asked questions (The International Color Consortium, http://www.color.org)

Q. Are there any differences between profiles with ".icc" and ".icm" extensions?

A. The answer is no. '.ICC' and '.ICM' files should be identical except for the suffix. The .ICC suffix was originated by Apple and Windows uses .ICM.

Yes, the internal structure of these files is the same. So the profiles can be read and used by different software. And I can even apply my monitor profile to rgb images in Photoshop.

But it is highly unlikely, that standard Adobe RGB profile describes and takes into account your particular monitor hardware white point, brightness, contrast and color properties. Even high end monitors must be calibrated again after some use. Usually once or twice a year is enough for new monitors, more frequently for older ones.

[Igor]

Please try the new Test Color Management 3

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/27544810/pte/Test-Color-Management-3.zip

You see 3 options:

1. No color management.

2. Transformation of JPEG images with color profiles to sRGB.

3. Transformation of ANY JPEG images to current color profile of your display.

Notes to option #3:

if your default color profile is sRGB you will not see any difference between options 2 and 3.

If you have display which support Adobe RGB and you installed Adobe RGB profile in Windows, this test application will show correct colors.

So we can do same color management in future PicturesToExe.

[Ken Cox]

Igor

#1 poor

#2 good

# 3 very slight improvement with system default -- excellent

ken

[Urmas]

Please try the new Test Color Management 3

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/27544810/pte/Test-Color-Management-3.zip

You see 3 options:

1. No color management.

2. Transformation of JPEG images with color profiles to sRGB.

3. Transformation of ANY JPEG images to current color profile of your display.

Notes to option #3:

if your default color profile is sRGB you will not see any difference between options 2 and 3.

If you have display which support Adobe RGB and you installed Adobe RGB profile in Windows, this test application will show correct colors.

So we can do same color management in future PicturesToExe.

Thanks for another good effort. It works as intended. On my Adobe RGB capable display:

ProPhoto RGB source file:

#1 no color management - dull colors

#2 assuming sRGB output - oversaturated colors

#3 reading automatically my monitor calibration profile - correct colors.

Just for educational purposes (for those who are not yet familiar with color management background):

sRGB source file:

#1 no color management - oversaturated colors

#2 assuming sRGB output - oversaturated colors

#3 reading automatically my monitor calibration profile - correct colors.

Adobe RGB source file:

#1 no color management - almost correct colors

#2 assuming sRGB output - oversaturated colors

#3 reading automatically my monitor calibration profile - correct colors.

Actually there is very minute difference between #1 and #3 with Adobe RGB image. The most probable reason is different rendering intent applied by Windows color engine. Using proper profile works best.

As for practical implementation for color managed workflow just few thoughts:

1) When building slideshow, all images (jpg-s) should have the same color space. It is not good idea to mix different profiles. Makes color management a lot easier. User defines color profile in project options and when adding slides PTE could just check and warn in case of profile mismatch. I do not expect PTE to act as profile converter.

2) png and bmp images do not have profile information. However, when you prepare them on Adobe RGB capable display and use them together with Adobe RGB jpg-s, PTE can safely assume everything being in Adobe RGB. And the same principle applies for everything in sRGB workflow.

3) Video files have slightly different color profiles. There is a bit more mess in the video world with different codecs etc. Most out-of camera DSLR videos are probably close to sRGB colors. However, when you edit videos, you can always find suitable output profile matching Adobe RGB gamut. There is a nice video player called Media Player Classic (freeware) and it has color management. So, if the video objects could be color managed separately within the slideshow - excellent, if not, there are workarounds for experienced users just like with bmp-s or png-s.

4) It will be good idea to have four output profile options in PTE -

#1 No color management - as it is now. There is no need to confuse those, for whom color management is initially to complex. They must have time to adopt. Could be default choice after installation.

#2 Select manually sRGB monitor profile - again, just for easy start, a preselected choice. Also usable, when you happen to present your show in uncalibrated small gamut environment. Just a quick choice. sRGB profile could be included in PTE installation.

#3 Select manually any (installed) output profile - somewhat replicates also #2, but you might want to prepare the show for different particular environment than your own monitor or projector. Might be good for testing purposes as well.

#4 PTE (EXE) reads automatically current display profile. Or active display profile in case of two monitors.

5) In case of exe files

#1 Automatic display profile reading and using is the best and should be default option in color managed slideshows.

#2 If no display calibration profile is set in OS, then reasonably safe is to assume sRGB.

#3 If the slideshow has been built without color profile settings, then exe can't use any profiles, it means exe can't be color managed as well. Just as it is now.

#4 Probably there might be a good idea to have some hotkey to open output color management menu settings and have choice manually select output profile when executing the exe file.

As for best and probably most used workflow with color managed PTE would be using Adobe RGB slideshows. If you use Adobe RGB monitor or projector, you can have full use of Adobe RGB color space. If you show Adobe RGB slideshows in color managed sRGB (or even lesser gamut) devices, oputput colors are correctly transposed to target space and the show colors is still accurate.

[jt49]

Igor,

The application did what you have described. With the sRGB option I first got an error message (see below). After copying "sRGB Color Space Profile.icm" from "C:\Windows\System32\spool\drivers\color" into the test application's folder, everything did work well. Now I have some hope that one of this forum's mantras "Use nothing but sRGB" will fall silent.

Regards,

jt

[Igor]

Urmas,

I mainly agree with you. But to help new users color management should be enabled by default? JPEG images with profiles should be transformed to sRGB by default.

jt,

It seems that Windows 8 has some difference with Windows 7. We'll check up. Thanks.

Remove .icm file from the test app's folder. Choose 3rd variant. Will it work and shows correct colors?

[Urmas]

Urmas,

But to help new users color management should be enabled by default? JPEG images with profiles should be transformed to sRGB by default.

Maybe sRGB as default. Since sRGB is most widespread space. All images coming from compact cameras (and phones) are in sRGB.

Another option is to run through few questions during setup like: do you have calibrated display etc.

Actually is is wise to guide users politely towards color managed workflow. The results are always better.

[Igor]

Thanks,

I forgot to say - you're right regarding video clips in Adobe RGB / ProPhoto RGB space. But I'm not sure that it's possible.

[jt49]

... jt, ... Remove .icm file from the test app's folder. Choose 3rd variant. Will it work and shows correct colors?

It works correctly! I used sRGB, and Adobe RGB as standard profile, and I set the monitor to sRGB and Adobe RGB, as well. I tested the application in all 4 combination with expected results: In the two cases where standard profile and monitor setting did coincide, the colors were fine. The combination sRGB/AdobeRGB delivered oversaturated colors, the other way round the image looked a bit flat.

Regards,

jt

[Urmas]

Thanks,

I forgot to say - you're right regarding video clips in Adobe RGB / ProPhoto RGB space. But I'm not sure that it's possible.

Sure, video world needs to mature a bit in his standards. on the other hand, video world is not that much color aware as photography. Just consider all kind of color grading and all kind of compression going on in film industry.

If I need to use video clips in otherwise Adobe RGB slideshow, I can always edit them to look good in Adobe RGB color space. Afterall, if you handle output pixel profiles, all pixels will be color managed the same way, both from image and video (or text) objects. So, I see no real problems with videos.

PTE is not a replacement for dedicated video production software. Photographic images and their correct display is far more important in PTE slideshows. And PTE slideshow as exe file will always give better results than the same slideshows converted to some video format. Maybe sometimes in future, when we do not need as much compression and color truncation in videos as we need today, video world for sure will adopt sRGB/AdobeRGB/someotherRGB space. That's logical.

Once again, Igor, thank you for taking the matter seriously. Good day just got better.

[Picsel]

Igor, sorry for being late to answer your question, I made your exercise with one of my own picture which was re-worked in photoshop.

My conclusion is : with your test, the color management gives me a bad result : see attachment bellow.

My personnal opinion : it is not easy to work with color management, except for some experts. I would leave that job to Photoshop, or other picture editing software.

Daniel

original picture (reworked in photoshop)

result of your test :

[Igor]

Daniel,

You used previous test application. It works incorrectly in some cases.

Please try the latest version I posted yesterday:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/27544810/pte/Test-Color-Management-3.zip

[Urmas]

Just have to correct one my previous statement about png and BMP images:

2) png and bmp images do not have profile information. However, when you prepare them on Adobe RGB capable display and use them together with Adobe RGB jpg-s, PTE can safely assume everything being in Adobe RGB. And the same principle applies for everything in sRGB workflow.

Actually, both, png and bmp images can include color profile information. Good news. So, most image formats PTE supports, can be used in color managed workflow. Only gif seems to be the black sheep in the cattle.

[Urmas]

Igor, sorry for being late to answer your question, I made your exercise with one of my own picture which was re-worked in photoshop.

My conclusion is : with your test, the color management gives me a bad result : see attachment bellow.

My personnal opinion : it is not easy to work with color management, except for some experts. I would leave that job to Photoshop, or other picture editing software.

Daniel

original picture (reworked in photoshop)

result of your test :

Downloaded the original image and it does not have any color profile associated. So, the color management does not have any clue how to treat colors. Probably Windows color engine treats images without profiles as being in target space because on my monitor your dog image without profile is exactly the same in not managed and managed states. In both test versions 2 and 3. Please note, that now the jpg has sRGB profile embedded (see attached image of version 2 comparison).

There is something wrong in your workflow what creates image without color profile embedded. And you system color management needs adjustment. See another attached file how color management tab in Windows 7 should look, when device profile is associated to the monitor. You see clearly monitor model (it means you have dedicated driver, not generic one) and default profile for it. The default icm profile was created after calibration the monitor with i1Display Pro. The lower profile file came with monitor software. It is OK, but calibration result is more accurate. Depending your OS, you might have different menus, but the basic idea is the same.

[Urmas]

Igor, sorry for being late to answer your question, I made your exercise with one of my own picture which was re-worked in photoshop.

My conclusion is : with your test, the color management gives me a bad result : see attachment bellow.

My personnal opinion : it is not easy to work with color management, except for some experts. I would leave that job to Photoshop, or other picture editing software.

Daniel

original picture (reworked in photoshop)

result of your test :

Picsel,

Just had another thought over your results and actually replicated your results. It seems, that your wide gamut monitor has correct profile assigned and both test programs, Igor made, understood it correctly. You actually used dog image with sRGB profile to test color management. However, when you uploaded your sample image to the forum, you reworked it in Photoshop and saved without color profile.

Here is my test protocol and results

I made a copy of your dog image and assigned sRGB profile to it. I assigned sRGB because when I looked your website, I noticed most photos made with compact camera (http://www.baladesetjardinsdusud.1cd5.com/). Compact cameras usually output photos in sRGB space.

1) When I used dog image with sRGB profile assigned, my results were exactly the same as yours. See "Dog test.jpg". Upper pair is image with sRGB profile assigned, lower pair has no profile.

2) Then I opened these images in Photoshop. Image without color profile is not color magnaged. sRGB image is color managed. And the results are exactly the same, as with Igor's test program. See "Dog test PS.jpg".

3) Just for curiosity I opened sRGB dog image with ColorThink Pro and compared its colors with sRGB space. See "ColorThink sRGB.jpg". Wireframe represents sRGB color space and dots are actual pixel values of dog image. As you can see, majority of the colors are well inside the sRGB space. That's logical, because melanin as color pigment in animals, can't have vivid colors like some flowers, fungi or insects may sometimes have.

Conclusions

1) Both color management test programs Igor made, actually work correctly. Both are good, side side by side comparison is more self-explanatory. third version shows the names of the profiles. Also good feedback.

2) In order to benefit from color managed workflow, always take care, that images have correct profiles are embedded.

3) The color management did not give you a bad results, actually you could see your dog correct colors.

4) It is common, that humans tend to appreciate vivid colors more than pale colors. However, oversaturated wrong colors are bad. The dog is not a purple emperor (flashy butterfly). The world is full of different objects and different colors. And color management actually enables us to show the differences we wouldn't see without it.

[Picsel]

Daniel,

You used previous test application. It works incorrectly in some cases.

Please try the latest version I posted yesterday:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/27544810/pte/Test-Color-Management-3.zip

Hi Igor,

After testing your latest version, I cannot see any differences between the three modes with my pictures which are all in sRGB;

For my understanding, if you intend to work with color management I would like to know if it will make conversion from 8bits coding depth to X bits (and so in this case, is X a setting parameter)? And, in which color space will the pictures be converted by PTE.

I just want to draw your attention on the fact that, up to now, few people know how to deal with color management and for the others I fear that color management option in PTE will bring them some more problem without a great interest for them due to the fact that, today, most of the displaying screens are still in sRGB for a while (I think, it will take time before the UHDTV becomes widely spread as there is no interest for common users except the color space).

Personnaly I would prefer a color management option which could be able to switch all the slideshow from sRGB color space to YUV or UHDTV for example in order to avoid to modify the color settings of video projector or TV set.

Best regards

Daniel

[CorVdK]

I just want to draw your attention on the fact that, up to now, few people know how to deal with color management and for the others I fear that color management option in PTE will bring them some more problem without a great interest for them

Daniel, I'm afraid that you are right.

Greetings,

Cor

[Picsel]

Picsel,

Just had another thought over your results and actually replicated your results. It seems, that your wide gamut monitor has correct profile assigned and both test programs, Igor made, understood it correctly. You actually used dog image with sRGB profile to test color management. However, when you uploaded your sample image to the forum, you reworked it in Photoshop and saved without color profile.

Umas

thanks for making some tests but if you are right in principle your tests are wrong, that is my fault, I must apologize for that.

In fact when I said "original picture" that was not right, that was a print screen of the original picture saved with pixbuilder.

The original picture was in sRGB, and I made the test with my original picture and obiously not with the printscreen.

Most of the cameras, and "digital" screens are in sRGB which is a de facto standard for displaying pictures.

Daniel

[Igor]

Daniel,

PicturesToExe will perform automatic color management by default. Users need to change anything.

[jt49]

... PicturesToExe will perform automatic color management by default. Users need to change anything.

I hope that there will be other options, as well, in particular static color management what should mean: Create an Exe-output including images that (during creation) have already been transformed to a defined output color space (with the effect that during execution no color transformation have to be performed).

Regards,

jt