Queensland 2014 AV Competition

[Barry Beckham]

Just some feedback on this competition following the presentation night on Saturday 6th September.

The competition was limited to clubs in the Metropolitan area of Brisbane, 19 possible clubs, but members from only about 8 entered. 42 entries were received and 34 were made with PTE, the remaining ones were Mp4 or DVD's, no PSG entries at all. From the calls I had over the months, I guess many of the remaining 8 entries were from Mac users. The fact that only 8 clubs entered from a possible 19 was a little disappointing. There is little doubt that unless a club has at least one or two AV enthusiasts in their midst to drive this sort of thing along, photographers do seem reluctant to have a go. This is despite a category we added called Min10 (10 images only) to encourage entries. I did make a short promo for the competition and a copy was sent to each club, so every effort was made to encourage entries. Having said all this, 42 was far more than last year and I expect next year will be greater still, it is growing year on year.

One of the biggest failings was exe file size with one 4.20 sequence coming in at 700MB, another around the same length at 500MB and a number of others far bigger than they needed to be. No great problem in this situation, but next year we would want to use a file drop for entries and then it might cause some issues. It did cause some issues getting all the sequences onto a disk. We needed two disks, when they should have all been easily fitted on one.

The winners stood out head and shoulders above the rest, no surprise there really as this gap can be seen quite in AV circles. We still have work to do to promote PTE, but Its the basics that are required. Many amateurs still have the view that dabbling in AV is just a step too far.

Other information worth mentioning:- In the 42 sequences shown, no video was used at all and animation was also very limited and where it was used, it seemed to be used wisely. It also seemed clear from the audience reaction that had the results been judged from audience reaction on the night, the results would have been a lot different. Given that we make AV's to be seen by a wider audience, I wonder if that is the way to judge them in future.

[Igor]

Hi Barry,

Thanks for this interesting information!

[goddi]

Just some feedback on this competition following the presentation night on Saturday 6th September.

The competition was limited to clubs in the Metropolitan area of Brisbane, 19 possible clubs, but members from only about 8 entered. 42 entries were received and 34 were made with PTE, the remaining ones were Mp4 or DVD's, no PSG entries at all. From the calls I had over the months, I guess many of the remaining 8 entries were from Mac users. The fact that only 8 clubs entered from a possible 19 was a little disappointing. There is little doubt that unless a club has at least one or two AV enthusiasts in their midst to drive this sort of thing along, photographers do seem reluctant to have a go.

Barry,

I have been trying to get our local club into making AVs. I finally was able to get on their schedule to make a presentation of PTE earlier this year. I even purchased a laptop to be sure that the presentation went as planned. I emailed each person a full page of links, including PTE's, and many sites for free programs and demos that will assist in the creation of slideshows.

I just can not get these members to give it a go. I don't know what it takes. I guess I have to find that second enthusiast!!! I feel our club is just stuck in the mud and doing the same thing year after year. We do have another club in the area that will hold a Photo Essay, but they do it only once a year. Most seem to use the PSG.

Hard to even lead a horse to water...

Gary

[Barry Beckham]

Gary

I know what you mean, there is a significant amount of Photographers who are only just coping with what they need for their basic photography. They see the making of slide shows as a step too far. The way I tried to break this down was to first do a short demo to members on how to make a slide show, but you have to forget about ANY fancy stuff like resizing images, adding animation or video. Just keep it simple and basic...and short. Some of the technically clever slide shows we see posted can actually have a detrimental effect when seen by some. They give newcomers the wrong idea, padding out their initial view that its all too much trouble.

I then got the club to run a mini 10 competition and I created a disk with the trial version of PTE on it for members to try. It was back when you could make a slide show with 10 images and a logo appeared down the bottom of the screen which we had to live with. It was well supported and from there I have helped those members who showed interest. So, as you say, you can lead a horse to water, but it's not enough sometimes. This is the first time our club got involved in such a large competition and I receive a fair number of calls and emails from entrants and potential entrants. The two questions that stick out in my mind was the first one from Mac users asking advice on what software they should use. So, maybe a Mac version of PTE will do more for sales than the PC/Mac percentages would indicate.

The second issue was over resolution and Aspect ratio. We left that in the rules as a creative choice of the entrant and it's clear some were confused. They were so used to their club laying down draconian rules on image size that a set of rules that left it them, had one or two a little baffled. We can tidy that up next year. I think the best promotion for AV it to demonstrate putting together a simple collection of images as a portfolio. Maybe an end of year, best images I shot this year type of thing. Those with the interest will continue, those who don't will let it drop.

We also have to accept that PSG got a toe hold into the amateur scene and then members will take advice from others and follow suite. When software is recommended, it's rarely done from a position of real knowledge. How many have enough experience of different software to be able to make that judgement. Its just a case of do what I do.

[cjdnzl]

Barry,

I have been trying to get our local club into making AVs. I finally was able to get on their schedule to make a presentation of PTE earlier this year. I even purchased a laptop to be sure that the presentation went as planned. I emailed each person a full page of links, including PTE's, and many sites for free programs and demos that will assist in the creation of slideshows.

I just can not get these members to give it a go. I don't know what it takes. I guess I have to find that second enthusiast!!! I feel our club is just stuck in the mud and doing the same thing year after year. We do have another club in the area that will hold a Photo Essay, but they do it only once a year. Most seem to use the PSG.

Hard to even lead a horse to water...

Gary

Hello Gary,

Commiserations, I've been there and done that, except I already had my lappy. I put together a short demo show of 10 images, put them together in PTE on-screen, included a music piece pre-tailored to the right length, assembled the show and published the exe file, all there on-screen, then showed the finished show. Lots of oohs and aahs, but no follow-up at all, not one person gave it a go.

Then I tried to get interest in 20-20 pecha cucha ( the Japanese format for a show, 20 slides for 20 seconds each with live spoken commentary) basically a very simple show, no takers there either. I even tried a lecture on how, when going out with a camera, to shoot with a sequence for a show in mind instead of thinking single shots as a whole new way of taking photographs. Got a lukewarm reception and no results at all. This is a camera club with about 60 members, but all they seem to do is shoot for the club competitions. One member who did an Antarctica trip made a slide show - ironically in Photomagico, the Apple program - which was so full of fancy effects that the images were hardly appreciated. Even then, still no interest.

I wonder if the members don't have enough background or theory in photography to tackle a slide show. We have members who do not know how to resize an image, don't use an image editor of any sort let alone Photoshop or Lightroom, They just get their images printed at 12 x 8 at the local processor. They just like taking photographs but "don't bother me with all that theory stuff" seems to be the prevalent view. 'Real photographers' are pretty thin on the ground, the advent of digital photography has seen the rise of photo-shooters who have no knowledge of the craft like the film user photogs in previous years. I am old enough to straddle both disciplines, having been involved in photography for 65 years, I really appreciate the cleanliness and versatility of digital imaging after 20 years of a wet colour darkroom, but these newcomer digishooters don't know anything about that. They shoot everything on auto or maybe Av, have never used a meter or thought about exposure, and apparently don't want to know.

Oops, a bit off-topic now, better go,

Regards,

Colin

[goddi]

Greetings Barry and Colin,

Well, it is kind of good (in a bad way) to know that there are more people in my boat than just me. It has been frustrating trying to shine a light on something beyond the regular competitions. It is a bit sad to see that other photographers in our clubs don't see the possible creativity and exciting presentations they can make with a program like PTE. Our club starts up again in a month or so, and maybe I can give it one more shot...

Thanks...Gary

[Lin Evans]

Hi guys,

Even more reasons why the future of PTE depends on the combination of event photographers and young people who are very interested in special effects. In the world there are those who "do" and those who "watch." The watchers out number the doers by a huge percentage. Products like PicturesToExe have to be oriented toward those who do.

Event photographers create presentations for various audience. They create video and still images for clients (wedding photographers, etc.) and for audiences. For example - many years ago I was the official photographer for the 10th Annual UFO Congress in Laughlin, Nevada, a week-long event attended by hundreds. My job was not only to photograph the speakers but also to create candid photos of the crowd in attendance which were displayed in a continuous running format on a large projection display. My show was made with a very early version of PicturesToExe and the running show was stopped just long enough for me to add additional images, compile the executable and start it back up. I created CD's for the show producers to market to those in attendance and it was well received.

Older people who make up the bulk of camera clubs, in general are not particularly astute when it comes to computer literacy. Things must be kept simple or they simply will not bother with it. For the most part, they are not the future for this product. Younger people grew up with computers, cell phones with cameras, video games, fairly complex software and no fear of swimming in these waters. These young people are highly enamored with video, animation and even effects. They will become tomorrow's user of presentation products, but the simple show which tells a meaningful story with images and audio which we who use PTE for AV purposes love, is not going to impress them. The event photographer must capture the attention of his/her audience and must do it fairly quickly. Time is money for them so transition effects and "styles" are paramount. A competitive product must then be able to allow them to quickly create a fairly flashy show to sell to their client. This is why the competition has been so successful. As mentioned many times before, the competition's income stream is probably as great from their sales of styles as from their main products. To survive and compete, PTE must offer these features and must actively market to the younger generation. To become THE product in the minds of tomorrow's market, the product must become embedded in their vocabulary today. There will probably always be a small market consisting of the true audio/visual enthusiast derived from camera clubs and competitions, but this will not sustain growth for the company. Exploring new markets is paramount and I can't stress enough the importance of video in this equation. No, PTE should not become a "video only" oriented product, but video and special effects and even more importantly, features giving the user the ability to incorporate their artistic creations in their presentations must constitute a significant part of the product.

Teaching people to use the product can also become a viable profit center. The competition hires professional wedding photographers to attend electronic shows and demonstrate their product. They were at nearly every COMDEX show I've attended and have seminars across the country. Of course there are no more COMDEX shows, but PMA, Photokina and other such photography related events must have representatives for PTE in attendance and having a small booth with demonstrations would go a very long way toward promoting this product and making it one of the first in the minds of professionals who are the first-line market prospects. These type marketing efforts have made the names of the competition's products an everyday household word among event photographers in the US. That must happen with PTE if it is to become a successful competitor in this country.

Best regards,

Lin

[Barry Beckham]

Lin

Maybe you're beating this drum, just a little too loudly

[RobertAlbright]

I think we're all experiencing these problems, whether it be Australia, US, UK or elsewhere. The apathy to try AV has grown among still photographers - maybe it is something to do with not having learnt the basics of manually controlled exposure, differential focus and so on or simply the ever widening claims of alternative and quicker to learn attractions.

Lin is probably right about the future market being in video and animation. Whilst the former interests me (so long as I can achieve it with my single camera), the latter doesn't interest me at all.

Where does that leave us with PTE? On the one hand there are commercial imperatives, on the other the interest range of narrative AV producers. Up till now the two have advanced hand in hand; there is a risk that they will diverge before long. That would be a sad day but increasingly likely as the general attraction of narrative AV falls away.

My advice is to continuously strive to make PTE simpler and more intuitive to use. Established producers may struggle to grasp this but anyone who has led a room-full of complete AV beginners in a camera club will know how hard it is for stills photographers to grasp the ideas which we take for granted. Avoid making the product more and more complex, simplify, simplify, simplify to the point where a completer beginner can make an attractive AV in 1/2 hour.

[davegee]

Does it have to be AV as we traditionally know it?

Photographers need a way of presenting their best work (unconnected images) either with music and narrative or in a manual show where they describe location, exposure, equipment etc.

Some make the transition to Traditional AV, others don't.

What matters is that they are using PTE and not PSG and that the show is a good experience for the viewer/audience.

Could there be a category on slideshowclub for such a show?

DG

[Lin Evans]

Barry,

To survive in a changing market, a product must serve both the existing base and the future base. The worldwide market for video and animation is growing exponentially while the market for still frame audio visual presentations is diminishing. I can only speak for the market potential for a presentation product here in the US with which I am quite familiar, but in order to grow, when you essentially "own" the relevant level of AV market in the UK and most of Europe, other markets are very important. In the US there essentially is no market for the same purposes as PTE is used in the UK and Europe. So to gain market share here, features are required which that market requires.

To be fair to Wnsoft, supporters must get beyond their own personal interest. I realize that you and most of the users of PTE in the UK and perhaps Australia as well have little or no consuming interest in video and animation so those features are of less importance. I understand this very well. PTE must be easy to use and be able to allow the user to create, as Robert so accurately said, an attractive AV in a half hour. This is paramount. Without this type capability the product will simply not sell to the existing AV market and without a tool which has this capability, there will be fewer people attracted to AV oriented clubs, etc.

To give us the features which we want for AV purposes, there must be sufficient income from sales.To continue to produce PTE and keep Wnsoft viable, the product must expand into alternative lucrative markets. Both existing and new markets must be served. It's really that simple.

Best regards,

Lin

[tom95521]

Here is my perspective.

There does seem to be an age related division using multimedia software. Unless you are a serious hobbyist the following is what I observe.

Ages 18 - 25. At the local university almost every student owns a smartphone and they share photos instantly via email or post to social sharing sites. Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, etc. Image quality does not seem to be an issue and they sometimes filter the images to make them look unique. Most of them do not own a dedicated camera. Many of them do not even own a laptop. They use the university computer labs.

Ages 25-60. People have careers and families. They take photos of their children and share with relatives. They might use a dedicated camera or smartphone and get one hour prints, email, or social sharing sites. They probably own a tablet and maybe a desktop PC they share with their children.

Ages 60+. If people are lucky they can someday retire and have more free time. They travel with dedicated cameras. They have time to join camera clubs. Many own a desktop PC and tablet. This is when multimedia software is popular. Using multimedia software with multiple images/videos to tell a story takes time that the younger generation do not have.

The smaller compact cameras are rapidly being replaced by smartphones. Bridge cameras and DSLRs are competing for the dedicated camera market.

Tom

[RobertAlbright]

Taking all this into account I have turned on my iPhone. It has a screen with all the sites and functions which I am most likely to use. I tap the function and it leads me to where I want to go.

I wan to open my blank PTE screen and populate it with every function I am likely to need. I am 25 and I'm in a hurry. I don't want to go to Project-Project Options or learn how to find and then use any of the other menus. I want to click and go. So on my home screen is Video, Music, preferred Animation Effects and much else. I just click and call up whatever I want from the internet and drag it into place. I don't need a huge screen to judge the quality. I want instant functionality. My iPhone has 16 functions on the home screen. I want this and more on my PTE homescreen. I have no time to read manuals and join forums. I want to add to the homescreen the particularl functions that attract me. I want quick and I want easy.

Simple

[Guest Yachtsman1]

If you want users to support your suggestion, why not post a copy of your method of a quick & easy av show so we can see how it compares to what we do?

Yachtsman1.

[RobertAlbright]

Peter, It would require the interface of PTE to be redesigned to demonstrate it. The interface would have buttons which are customised by the client. For example, if I frequently use a music edit tool I would right left click in the music edit space. Then right click. Right click always creates a button. I can then either name the button 'Music Edit' by typing in it or simply drag a scissors symbol onto the button. I then drag the music edit symbol onto the interface screen. Whenever I want to cut my music I simply drag the scissors onto the music timeline and snip. This system would apply to all tools. I can create whatever tools I want. It works in the way that all young people now work on their mobile phones, click, drag and drop.

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Peter Who?

So I suppose that all of us who are in our dotage would have to snap to & learn something else new. I'm afraid what you are saying is way beyond my acceptance level & I'll be sticking to what I know. I'm 74, don't have a smart phone, have a tablet but find it's an abortion to use on the internet, & it's consigned to read Ebooks.

(Eric)

Yachtsman1.

[RobertAlbright]

No problem, Eric. I find pseudo names equally confusing.

Lin has been exploring ideas on how to make PTE more attractive to a wider audience. I don't think there's any reason why there couldn't be versions of PTE aimed at different markets. Personally I'm very happy with what we have but the market for our kind of work is too small to justify major investment in further developments. Hence the need to find options which might appeal to a broader, younger client base.

[Guest Yachtsman1]

When we first bought our Tesco Hudle tablet & found I couldn't run exe files on it, only videos, I suggested PTE come up with an "app" or suchlike to enable exe's to run on tablets. However, now there seems to be a trend away from exe's I don't suppose it will be taken up. As this topic has gone totally off track, I suppose you should post your suggestion in the "appropriate" (no pun intended) section

Yachtsman1.

[Lin Evans]

Hi Eric,

The issue with most "tablets" and an exe file is that executable code requires a computer with a central processing unit (CPU) and an operating system in order to "execute." Executable means that the code produced gives instructions to the computer to do or "execute" commands. These commands in the relevant sense take the form of changing the size and position of our images, videos, graphics, etc. It determines the length of display time, the intensity of the display (opacity) and so on. Without a CPU and operating system designed specifically for this purpose, there is no way to run executable code. Most tablets have no CPU and operating system capable of using computer executable code. There are a few produced now (ASUS and Microsoft have models) which will actually run Windows. These "can" play executable files, but no "App" can be created by Wnsoft to run executable code on a tablet which does not have the necessary operating system and CPU to interpret it.

Best regards,

Lin

[tom95521]

When Steve Jobs was still alive I remember (I could be wrong) Igor writing he did not want to develop for iOS because Apple could remove his app or develop their own app and promote their app instead of his. Maybe this is no longer the case.

I think there is a valid market for Android OS since Igor could always self host the apk file and it can be installed without being in the Google Play/Amazon store. The newer smartphones/tablets definitely have enough CPU/GPU (quad core/octal core) power to play the latest games so I think PTE player (so it can play .ptshow files developed on the desktop PC) would run just fine. If the PTE player is well received then I think it would be a good idea to also develop a PTE editor for Android.

I really don't like the Windows 8 tile interface but I guess that could be another option for Intel CPU tablets.

Tom

[crossfade]

The issue with most "tablets" and an exe file is that executable code requires a computer with a central processing unit (CPU) and an operating system in order to "execute." Executable means that the code produced gives instructions to the computer to do or "execute" commands. These commands in the relevant sense take the form of changing the size and position of our images, videos, graphics, etc. It determines the length of display time, the intensity of the display (opacity) and so on. Without a CPU and operating system designed specifically for this purpose, there is no way to run executable code. Most tablets have no CPU and operating system capable of using computer executable code. There are a few produced now (ASUS and Microsoft have models) which will actually run Windows. These "can" play executable files, but no "App" can be created by Wnsoft to run executable code on a tablet which does not have the necessary operating system and CPU to interpret it.

LOL!!! that's certainly far out there. Wow.

Android tablets and iPads have a CPU and an operating system and run executable code, just not Windows code. WnSoft could create slide shows for those if they wanted to and had the time. Maybe when th Mac version is done. LOL.

[Igor]

Hi,

Thanks for your valuable thoughts and suggestions! I've read this topic with great attention.

[jevans]

I am reading this thread with interest, more particularly because Barry is coming to visit us here in the north east of England in October. In our club there is a only a small interest in av work using PTE, restricted to a few members. We have an av night in our programme and all submissions will use PTE (mainly due to me pushing the program). We also have a few member's evenings where members submit a selection of projected images using PTE in its simplest format. Some of the club members produce avs in various formats (including with or without commentary), and there is a Northern England AV group which meets twice a year with lecturers and members presentations. So far we have not introduced any competitive element in presentations.

I sympathise with Lin's viewpoint in trying to develop the market and hence needing always to develop new aspects of the software. I also admire the skill of some of the very complex presentations made by some of the forum members and wish that I had the skill and imagination to do the same. Surely there is a market for this approach. However from the point of view of the average club member that I am familiar with, PTE already has far more features that we can ever use or want to use. It is a brilliant piece of software which can be used in a very simple way or can produce fantastically complex results. Those that I have introduced to PTE have found it reasonably easy to pick up the basics and although some simplication of the user interface might result in an increase in the user base, for myself the present arrangement is fine.

[Lin Evans]

LOL!!! that's certainly far out there. Wow.

Android tablets and iPads have a CPU and an operating system and run executable code, just not Windows code. WnSoft could create slide shows for those if they wanted to and had the time. Maybe when th Mac version is done. LOL.

The product is designed to run on Windows and in the future on the MacIntosh. Android and iPads do not have a compatible system which can run computer software. Computer, in the relevant sense means Windows or OS X. Yes, a company could produce shows in an executable fashion should they have the time, resources and inclination to pursue each and every manufacturer's idea of executable code. Right now the product produces video to run on these products and that is quite sufficient. Apple doesn't run their OS X on iPads, and their MacIntosh applications are not compatible with iPads. Why in the world do you think Wnsoft would even consider creating code to make their executable files run on Android or iPads.

What I said was quite clear to most. Sorry you seem to have a problem with understanding it.

Lin

[crossfade]

The product is designed to run on Windows and in the future on the MacIntosh. Android and iPads do not have a compatible system which can run computer software. Computer, in the relevant sense means Windows or OS X. Yes, a company could produce shows in an executable fashion should they have the time, resources and inclination to pursue each and every manufacturer's idea of executable code. Right now the product produces video to run on these products and that is quite sufficient. Apple doesn't run their OS X on iPads, and their MacIntosh applications are not compatible with iPads. Why in the world do you think Wnsoft would even consider creating code to make their executable files run on Android or iPads.

I said what i said becaus you said tablets lack a cpu or operating system and can't run executable code and now you say Android and ipads can't run computer software. Thats crazy talk. How can a tablet run the millions of apps if there's no cpu or operating system?

Whether WnSoft wants to support tablets is up to them but its something to consider because theyre everywhere.

http://venturebeat.com/2013/05/06/tablets-will-outsell-laptops-6-to-1-by-2017-as-mobile-pc-market-hits-579-4-million/

This year, we’ll buy more tablets than notebooks for the first time ever. But by 2017, we’ll buy six times more tablets than laptops, according to market researcher NPD.