Wave display in time-line window?

[Igor]

Do we need in Wave display on time-line in the "Customize synchronization" window? We were requested several times about this feature and probably it will help to set transition points more exactly and quickly. We already have some code for this when we've wrote new music player.

1) Is it really necessary or just external program (like Audacity 1.0) will wholly

enough?

2) So which priority it has?

[Ed Overstreet]

For me, this feature would be marginally nice to have, but a very low priority compared with other things that have been identified (integrated light/dark table, integrated spreadsheet display allowing block adjustments of timings and maybe transitions, shift-click moving of groups of transitions on the sync timeline, etc.).

One of the limitations of a waveform display of at least some music is that the beats in the music (which normally are the points to which you want to link the transitions) aren't always obvious on the waveform, at least not in the sound editing software I've used. Even when the beats are obvious on the waveform, you don't always want the transition to begin exactly on the beat -- when you're using a slow transition, at least with some images, you sometimes want the transition to begin before the beat, because the switch-over (or the third image, as appropriate) doesn't become apparent immediately on a 4 or 5-second fade as it does on a 1- or 2-second fade for example. So in such cases one wants the transition to start before the beat, so the visual effect appears on the screen with the beat (which it won't in such cases if the transition point is actually on the beat). The amount of lag between the beginning of the transition and the appearance of something happening on the screen isn't easily predicted in advance; it depends on the relative tonalities and brightnesses in the two images as well as on the length of the fade.

This is something that a waveform display won't help you with; I find that in the end the only way to set the transitions to the music exactly as I want them is to listen to the music and press the New Transition button, then go back, view the effect while hearing the music, and tweak the transition points where needed as just described. I find the present version works just fine for such purposes, and I don't think a waveform display would help much or at all in that process, at least not in the shows I do with the music I tend to use.

But that's just one user's opinion. Thanks very much for asking; it is so refreshing to be involved with software and developers who ask users what they want before introducing the features.

[Lloegyr]

Admin

I have to totally agree with Ed. He has said it all right.

A wave form may give a visual clue but in the end it is down to sound, feeling and experience. There are other areas for you to put your effort into to better advantage.

Mike

Mersea Island

[ronwil]

I too agree with Ed's thoughts on this. Introduction of a waveform into the "Customize synchronization" window, which at the moment is a very useful part of the programme, in my opinion would probably have very little use for the average enthusiast.

Ron [uK]

[alrobin]

I, too, agree with Ed on this.

The only time I would use it would be in order to quickly go to a certain part of an mp3 selection for zeroing-in on a certain part in the music where the transitions were critical and needed some adjustment. It is sometimes easier to see where you are in a music selection by looking at the wave form, than to "feel" your way by listening to it play back. I would not use it for "dropping" the transitions onto the timeline as, like Ed, I prefer to do that while listening to the beats and then adjust afterward.

However, if you feel that a "snazzy" display of the waveform would help you sell more copies of PTE, then perhaps it would be a good thing to have.

[JRR]

Igor:

I would second all the above comments !!

(Now of course if you were to build the sound editing function right into PTE.....)

[MikeL117]

I find this feature invaluable in Premier, but I have to agree with Ed that it is essential to listen to the music to find the exact point to position the transition.

Once you have the relative offset from the beat by ear, though, it is much quicker to see the beat to position the transition and it is a good reminder of the beat position when fine tuning.

I would give it a slightly higher priority but still not an essential. The block moves and light table etc. will be more valuable enhancements for the majority of users.

Thanks for the opportunity to air our views.

Mike

[think(box)]

Thanks Mike (MikeL117) - I was surprised at how few respondents could see it the way you do. I agree with you.

Igor, I would place a strong positive on this feature. Visual tools open doors to creativity and productivity - sometimes especially well for newbies as they become more advanced. Like everyone, I listen to music to determine and confirm a sync choice. But once I know the beat and offset I would find it very helpful to have the proposed visual cues from PTE in order to rapidly set other transitions. This would be a very useful addition, and probably a very popular one too in spite of the pro and con votes so far in this response thread.

The best priority of this feature vs. others is your call. No external tool can match the effectiveness and simplicity of a PTE built-in waveform display. If block moves, light table and other highly-requested features will take 90% of your development time while a waveform display takes 10%, then I would do it for sure. If a waveform display will take over 50% of available development time before next release then that is too much. As Al Robinson suggests, if you believe this feature is likely to have a significant positive impact on PTE sales then I would follow the voice of the customer if at all reasonable in development cost.

[think(box)]

Igor - one other thought: An "AUTO-SYNC" feature

If you start with a waveform display in this version you can create enhancements in later PTE releases. Here are some ideas for enhancements in later PTE releases:

Create a beat detection feature that involves frequency bands as user choices of bass, vocals and highs. Use of a delay feature could support positive and negative slide transition offsets from detected beats.

Another idea: Optionally give the person viewing the slideshow the ability to select desired music from a list of AUTO-SYNC tracks.

Given the potential evolutionary improvements for later PTE releases, the waveform display is a very good starting point for the next PTE release.

---------------------

Ed Overstreet, I have a question regarding your point that sometimes the music beat is not visible in the waveform. First, I too have seen music that has an unclear beat in a visual waveform. My question is: If you were to make an edit to the music file for slideshow creation purposes only, that has a frequency band filter that brings out the bass or other content containing a beat, later to be replaced with the original music track, wouldn't that help in those situations?

I just took a 1950s rock song that has a very difficult to identify beat and tested this idea. I had to first adjust the entire track by about -12dB to make room for frequency response adjustment. Then I applied a graphic equalizer to the track with -24dB at all bands except 64Hz. The 64Hz band was set to +24dB to emphasize bass notes in a band around 64Hz.

The results: Works like a charm. I could see clearly the location and duration of bass notes, easily recognizing the pattern in the music.

I found that the waveform visual cues of music vocal parts could become crystal clear with a +24dB band emphasis at 500Hz, 1KHz or 2KHz. Further, I could make cymbal or tambourine beats clearly visible by a +24dB emphasis at 4KHz or 8KHz.

I do not propose that Igor does any filtering until later, evolutionary PTE releases. We can do that if and when we need it to enhance the utility of a simple waveform viewer feature release for now. Band-emphasis editing is an advanced procedure that takes about one minute to do if you have digital audio editing software. We can use PTE's waveform view to learn more about what we might want in later AUTO-SYNC releases.

[ronwil]

Bill

You have given what is probably a very reasoned argument for those who fully understand all your technical input, but I very much doubt that it will be an immediate attraction to newbies, as you call them, or it is a correct interpretation, as you shouted, "follow the voice of the customer if at all reasonable in development cost".

Ron [uK]

[think(box)]

Ron, thank you.

Advanced technical content is useful to PTE developers. I am confident that WnSoft can understand the content. The P2E product features and user interface must embrace the full breadth of individual understanding yet must be pleasurably usable with only a surface understanding by "newbies". And I believe it must instill confidence - and inspire new and existing users. If done well, the product market will respond with increased demand. My proposals and analysis have not stepped outside of these bounds. I started out recognizing the "tilt" to the small sample of responses thus far, and I believe I have correctly stated that all of what we provide is decision-making input for a decision that is not ours, but that is in fact WnSoft's to make.

The small sample of replies thus far is not necessarily indicative of the PTE market opportunity.

And... the one thing WnSoft should indeed be listening to is the voice of the customer - the many who form the market that WnSoft wants PTE to wow. The voice can be literal and vocal, and it can be in how sales increase. What Igor hears from people who respond in this forum is the voice of WnSoft's vocal, opinionated market members. We often see things differently between us. WnSoft must determine what the market as a whole demands most strongly. And they must drive the market sometimes in ways that are not immediately obvious to most people.

[ronwil]

Sorry Bill it had never occurred to me that WnSoft were in this to make money. I thought the approach was from that of enthusiasts in AV presentation. My mistake?

Ron [uK]

[Ed Overstreet]

Interesting idea, Bill, for those with the software, interest and time to go through the technical manipulations you outlined to identify the beat.

However, I think such a feature would be of more interest to technophiles than to most users of the software, or perhaps I am projecting my own preferences on this? I can hear the beat on the music, I can synchronize to that music very well with the software as it is now, and I can't see myself using the feature you describe -- too much extra work to do something I'm able to manage to do with what's already there. Which, to me, means this isn't a high priority.

But again, that's only one person's opinion

[think(box)]

On those thoughts Ed, I'll be the first to agree that it is well below the majority of PTE users who know how to do advanced audio editing. I suspect that this is true even in the forum membership.

The ultimate vision that I described was one where you add pictures, add sound, press a few buttons about what you want for effects and how you want the music to control the slide transitions, and then listen to a completed first draft production. Then in refinements, one could modify "effect" types by simple choices as we can today. And one could modify the music beat sync using simple user input like make the beat always earlier or later, etc.

I left out all other special slideshow customizations like buttons, etc., in that example because my point is that I consumed only a few minutes to be watching a well synchronized slideshow. PTE did all of the work for me. That left more time for my unique creative input to make the slideshow.

Assuming that you regularly make slideshows that use custom music sync, if I may ask could you please estimate the time it would take you at your present skill level to get music sync the way you like it for this sample custom-sync slideshow?: 70 slides, 7 minute music track. How long might it take to create it from scratch, up to when you are watching your synchronized slideshow?

Suppose you have completed it and you realize that a different 7 minute music track selection would fit the slides much better. What procedure did you use for synchronizing the first music choice and then what procedure would you use for the second music choice? How much wall clock time would you spend on tinkering with the sound sync (honestly)? In the new vision of PTE I would be watching the modified slideshow in less than one minute. While the thrill of being able to do custom sync as it is today may be a pleasure right now, the novelty wears off as I make more slideshows. Then I want to skip the tedium and spend less time making even better productions.

Ultimately I would like to see the automatic music beat detection as a mark on the timeline just as with slide transition marks today. The waveform display is a tool that can only semi-automate this process in the near term. Igor may find it easier to jump past this feature and start out with totally automatic beat detection with beat marks on the transition timeline. This is his call.

[Maureen]

Do we need in Wave display on time-line in the "Customize synchronization" window? We were requested several times about this feature and probably it will help to set transition points more exactly and quickly. We already have some code for this when we've wrote new music player.

1) Is it really necessary or just external program (like Audacity 1.0) will wholly

enough?

2) So which priority it has?

Answering Igor's original question personally....

1. I would like to see it in future versions but currently (for me) external sound editing software is enough

2. Would be low on my personal priority list (but not at the bottom)

I agree with Ed & others' points and also especially Mike's .......

block moves and light table etc. will be more valuable enhancements for the majority of users

Lots of digital AV users have a great wish to view the images in some way as they build up their sequences.

At present that could be a bigger "sales factor" than the wave display.

Also agree........

If block moves, light table and other highly-requested features will take 90% of your development time while a waveform display takes 10%, then I would do it for sure. If a waveform display will take over 50% of available development time before next release then that is too much.

Thanks for asking our opinions and even more Thanks for working so hard to continually improve an excellent programme

BW Maureen

[Guest guru]

Bill think(box),

Thank you very much. Your suggestions about the beat detection are very suitable and important.

I agree with you, waveform can be a great help to synchronize slideshows more easily and quickly, and personally I think this feature must have a "good" priority, at least as much as light table. But I think an automatic beat detection is not so easy to actualize. Some sound editors have this feature (auto beat detection), but I never got really satisfactory results with this function.

By the way, just last week I was invited to Garda lake (north east of Italy) for a workshop about digital slideshows and (of course...) PTE. This workshop was directed to all members of local photoclubs, from Milan to Venice.

Well, after my detailed demonstration of PTE (with some examples of PTE slideshows), all agreed about the very good technical quality of shows, but several of them complained the lack of the waveform instead of the present "straight" time-line. No one asked for a light table or other additional features.

This doesn't mean that I consider block moves or light table not important. But in my opinion the sound waveform has a higher priority, also considering that Igor himself says he has already "some code for this".

[Alan Lyons]

I would agree that the light table would be more urgent. Having come from slide/tape it seems so easy to time a show with a time line and not have to rewind a tape or try to listen through a sync. pulse. But we loose out by not having a light table to sort the secquence. As for the beat recognition, I would stay away from using this to sync a show as it can lead to rough edged secquence. I remember seeing a show many years ago where the slides changed with the beat. by 10 slides in we were all clapping along with the change

Alan

P.S for Maureen thanks for the parcels Saturday, Ian was the only postman working in Dublin that day. Alas, they did not help with the lotto win.

[Guest guru]

Dear Alan,

I can understand very well your opinion about the light table, because I too come from slide / tape shows (Carousel + Revox...). But I think it's a question of method and of taste: for me, the music (and the sound in general) is extremely important in a show, so I consider very convenient a waveform time-line. Btw, also the members of photoclubs who asked for this feature were older than me [!!! ], and all worked with real slides and real tapes.

As for beat recognition, I totally agree with you.

[alrobin]

Alan,

I agree with you about the priority of beat recognition software in PTE. Personally, I find a show in which transitions occur regularly, every 8 beats or so (in the case of 4/4 music), as is commonly done, quite boring, particularly if the show is a long one.

I like to mix it up a bit - even timing transitions as "counterpoints" to the main percussion in the music to add variety to the show.

In fact, I like to think of transitions as a form of "percussion", either re-inforcing or adding to the existing percussion of the music, adding emphasis where required, thus integrating with the audible percussion to form a base for the rest of the music.

To carry this analogy further, I am not sure that a "real" percussionist would use a timeline to lay down a drum loop. Rather, one would either listen to a metronome, or the music which had already been recorded, in order to get a feel for when additional drum beats are required. In the same way, IMHO, it would be recommended that someone laying down slide-show transitions do so while listening to the music, not watching the visual representation of an audio track.

Having said this, (to use a trite phrase ), if one accepts the concept of transitions being a form of percussion, and just as waveforms are useful in audio editing (after the tracks have been laid down) to line-up or locate particular sections of the music, waveforms would have some limited use in the fine-tuning of these transitions and in selecting certain sections in which further fine adjustments are required.

[Igor]

Very interesting discussion! Thank you.

Bill, I'm not sure about auto beat detection, probably! You're right, often it difficult to find necessary peaks.

Ok, I'll leave wave form visualization after completing of another important features.

Let me suggest to discuss another important theme.

Please see new "The next most important features" topic.

[HaroldB]

I think the way Bill thinks. I find waveform visualization very important to the way I work, even though as Ed says, I tune afterwards. I currently use Cool Edit 2000 in another window to do this.

I could certainly live with Cool Edit, but prefer an integrated product. In a similar way, I currently use Microsoft's Photo Editor as a light table, but I hate doing that.

Whether you should do it sooner or later -- I guess it depends on how much work it takes to do it.

Harold

[Gérard de Lux]

For me, a wave form visualisation would be useful, even very useful, but not essential. A light table with 'drag and drop' re-ordering facility of the images is a higher priority.

But of course, if the audio signal was present in a wave form, I'll be happy too !

Thank you

[Guest guru]

To Gérard :

Merci pour ton appui, Gérard!

(Thanks for your help, Gérard) [see also "The next most important features" topic]

To all forum members :

By the way, even if you don't know French, have a look to Gérard's site: it's a true mine of information, hundreds of useful links, and - of course - many excellent pictures.

[jtsfoto]

My wife Terry & I are professional photographers and have had to produce a presentation set to music of a major event we photographed & thought we'd give PTE a try as it was recommended in a Digital Photography magazine. The still images of the event can be seen on http://www.jtsfoto.com/aem. We will post an abreviated (it's 20 minutes) version of the slideshow for other PTE users to view in the near future.

We are probably one of the many original requestors for waveform to added to PTE.

We used Audacity for this slideshow and found it terribly primitive & not easy to use. We have now purchased Sound Forge, which is appears to be more flexible & easier to use.

Besides the normal issues of syncing the slides to music, the bigger problem for us is that the music is never the exact length you need for a slide sequence & have to push, squeeze, stretch, fade & add bits in to the music to make it fit.

We would really find this useful.

Thanks to all who use the PTE forum as it is really full of useful info.

John & Terry Sadie

http://www.jtsfoto.com

The known is finite, the unknown infinite; intellectually we stand on an islet in the midst of a limitless ocean beyond comprehension. TH Huxley 1887

[Guest guru]

John and Terry,

I didn't well understand your question, I guess. Why you need an exact music duration?

If you use a soundtrack of an approximately right duration, you can easy adjust (in time-line) the duration of slides. You can also add some titles, or modify the transition time. What is the difference between say 5 seconds and 4.6 or 5.5 ?