PTE and Mercalli SAL3 - image stabilization issue

[goddi]

Greetings,

I am trying to stabilize some videos using ‘Mercalli SAL3’ that I have included in a PTE show. I have had some success but still trying to figure out how to use Mercalli to get the best results.

But I have come across a bit of a strange result that I’d like some opinions on. I have put in a video clip into the PTE show. I have let PTE convert the clip, with some trimming done. Then, I run this converted clip through the Mercalli program to help stabilize the image. When I then play this video clip in PTE, it does not run smoothly anymore. (But it does run smoothly in Windows Media Player and in VLC). So then I re-convert the previously converted clip and then it run smoothly again in PTE.

Here are more details: I start with an original video clip that is in ‘mov’ format. I let PTE 'convert' the clip and I did some trimming in the process.

When I convert it in PTE, the format changes to a file with the ‘avi’ extension, DSC_4972.converted.avi, (the Format shows it to be ‘MPEG-4 Visual’).

Then I run this file through Mercalli and it comes out with an ‘mp4’ extension, DSC_4972.converted.Merc.mp4, (the Format shows it to be ‘AVC’). But the problem is it then does not run smoothly.

I then re-convert it in PTE and the extension goes back to ‘avi’ extension, DSC_4972.converted-Merc.converted.avi, (the Format goes back to ‘MPEG-4 Visual’). And it then runs smoothly in PTE. Please see the attached screenshot.

I thought a big change in the bit rate would be causing the problem, not the format, but the bit rates appear to be very close to each other in each file. I would like to know if this result is ‘expected’ or are my steps causing the problem.

Thanks… Gary

[Lin Evans]

Hi Gary,

The proper procedure is stabilize the video as it comes from your camera, etc., in Mercali then convert the stabilized video in PTE. When Mercali stabilized a video the video is re-rendered so it you are adding an unnecessary step by converting before stabilizing.

PTE sets a number of parameters which allow the smooth play in even less than optimal systems. Much of what it does is decompression and when you run Mercali it recompresses. It has little to do with bitrate and much to do with compression levels. So if you just do the stabilization then convert you should have optimal performance.

Best regards,

Lin

[goddi]

Hi Gary,

The proper procedure is stabilize the video as it comes from your camera, etc., in Mercali then convert the stabilized video in PTE. When Mercali stabilized a video the video is re-rendered so it you are adding an unnecessary step by converting before stabilizing.

PTE sets a number of parameters which allow the smooth play in even less than optimal systems. Much of what it does is decompression and when you run Mercali it recompresses. It has little to do with bitrate and much to do with compression levels. So if you just do the stabilization then convert you should have optimal performance.

Best regards,

Lin

Lin,

The reason I would first run the video clip through the PTE 'convert' process is that it allows me to do some trimming of the clip before I run it through Mercalli. If I just wanted a short portion of a long clip, it would take a long time for Mercalli to first encode the entire clip. Doing the trimming first in PTE, before Mercalli, let me encode a shorter clip in Mercalli. But I will try your method of just running the entire clip through Mercalli first, then run it through PTE's convert process and trim it then.

But, I am really at a loss on how to set the parameters in Mercalli SAL3 after it Mercalli has analysed it. I'm am not sure what to check and what to set the Settings for the best results. I have looked for YouTube tutorials but they don't say 'why' or 'when' you would want to adjust any of the settings after the video clip is analyzed. It is hard to tell what they are going to do. Have you found any good tutorials on how to use Mercalli? When I import a video, it automatically inputs some defaults, and then after the clip is analyzed, the defaults are readjusted automatically. But it is not clear what other adjustments should be done after Mercalli does its analysis of the clip.

If anyone has any input, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks... Gary

[PGA]

Gary,

I've no experience with Mercalli-SAL3, only with Mercalli-Easy. In that software the only choice the user can make is the output format. I use Mercalli-Easy in the manner that Lin has described: stabilize the entire clip then convert and trim the resultant file in PTE.

I would suggest that, if a software product has been properly designed, the user should not need to make changes to the "factory settings" until such time as they find a need to make changes. That need for change would be triggered by dissatisfaction with the quality of the output. Are you unhappy with the quality of stabilization that you are currently getting? If not, why worry?

[davegee]

Gary,

You can trim in-camera or in VNX2 and output in the same format/quality.

I recommend VNX2 for this - it does a good job.

DG

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Hi Gary

You can trim your video clip in PTE without optimisation. In the "settings tab" scroll down to "preferences", scroll down to "Optimise Video Clip" click the drop down arrow & set to "Never Convert". Once you've trimmed your clip & run it through your stabilsation programme, re-set the optimisation setting to "Always Convert" & Bob's your uncle, hopefully. I did a tutorial on the subject way back, maybe in 7?, yes it was but the same principle applies.

Eric

Yachtsman1.

[goddi]

Hi Gary,

The proper procedure is stabilize the video as it comes from your camera, etc., in Mercali then convert the stabilized video in PTE. When Mercali stabilized a video the video is re-rendered so it you are adding an unnecessary step by converting before stabilizing.

PTE sets a number of parameters which allow the smooth play in even less than optimal systems. Much of what it does is decompression and when you run Mercali it recompresses. It has little to do with bitrate and much to do with compression levels. So if you just do the stabilization then convert you should have optimal performance.

Best regards,

Lin

Lin, Peter, Dave and Eric,

Ok...let's say I want to trim a long video clip before I stabilize it or convert it. And say I want to do the trimming in PTE. From what I can see, you can not trim the video without it going through the convert process. See attached.

If I want to use only a small portion of a long video clip, I don't want to have to run the long clip through Mercalli each time I want to tweak the inputs in Mercalli. So I'd like to be able to trim the video clip first using PTE. However, the fly in the ointment is that my video out-of-the-camera is MOV format. The preview in the Convert window does not play MOV format video smoothly...it is very jerky so it is difficult if not impossible to do a good trimming.

So that is one reason I did the PTE Convert first; then Mercalli; then PTE Trim (with another required Convert).

I have a problem because the MOVs don't play smoothly in the Convert window and you can not do a Trim without doing the Convert.

Gary

[goddi]

Gary,

I've no experience with Mercalli-SAL3, only with Mercalli-Easy. In that software the only choice the user can make is the output format. I use Mercalli-Easy in the manner that Lin has described: stabilize the entire clip then convert and trim the resultant file in PTE.

I would suggest that, if a software product has been properly designed, the user should not need to make changes to the "factory settings" until such time as they find a need to make changes. That need for change would be triggered by dissatisfaction with the quality of the output. Are you unhappy with the quality of stabilization that you are currently getting? If not, why worry?

Peter,

I tried the trial version of Mercalli-Easy. When I tried to save the results, it stopped half way through...maybe because it is a trail version. Its saving output is AVI. The Mercalli SAL3 lets me save as MP4. Not sure what the difference is after you Convert it in PTE. I also notice that the Mercalli-Easy automatically enabled the Rolling-Shutter Compensation setting, while the Mercalli SAL3 does not. And the Easy version does not show any CMOS setting.

No, I am not completely happy with the stabilization results I am getting with Mercalli SAL3. I get some strange jerkyness where the original video does not have. And some added blurring in some spots. The Mercalli SAL3 has a bunch of sliders and choices that I am not sure how to use to make the results better. I have attached a screenshot of what I get after a video is analyzed. I would assume the additional sliders, etc., that my version has can be used to get better results but I have not found out 'why' or 'when' I should tweak them.

Gary

[goddi]

Hi Gary

You can trim your video clip in PTE without optimisation.......

Eric, I don't think you can trim without converting the video clip. At least in the latest version. See my posting below.

Gary

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Eric, I don't think you can trim without converting the video clip. At least in the latest version. See my posting below.

Gary

Hi Gary

I don't see any posting below this.?

Eric

Yachtsman1

[goddi]

Hi Gary

I don't see any posting below this.?

Eric

Yachtsman1

Oppsss...Above...#7.

Gary

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Hi Gary

The three screen shots are the file details of the same video , the first is straight out of the camera, with optimisation switched off (never convert), the second has been cropped to 15 seconds, still with optimisation set to never convert, when I now crop the original clip without changing the file name but with optimisation switched back on, it overwrites the second clip & presumably crops & converts it. I haven't checked the file details but if one is able to switch conversion off, they should all be different.

Eric

Yachtsman1.

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Hi Gary

The three screen shots are the file details of the same video , the first is straight out of the camera, with optimisation switched off (never convert), the second has been cropped to 15 seconds, still with optimisation set to never convert, when I now crop the original clip without changing the file name but with optimisation switched back on, it overwrites the second clip & presumably crops & converts it. I haven't checked the file details but if one is able to switch conversion off, they should all be different.

Eric

Yachtsman1.

original clip.jpg cropped no conversion on.jpg conversion on every time.jpg

Gary Just checked, it would appear that there is no difference between clips 2 & 3 with conversion switched on or off. The grey matter just kicked in & I seem to remember bringing this up during the run of PTE8 with Wnsoft & not getting a reply. For myself, I now always allow PTE to convert my video clips as the old problem of ballooning file sizes was improved. However, If the "never convert" function has been removed, it should be removed from the preferences section.

Eric

Yachtsman1.

[davegee]

This might help:

http://docs.picturestoexe.com/en/main_menu/preferences?optimization_of_video_clips

DG

[goddi]

This might help:

http://docs.picturestoexe.com/en/main_menu/preferences?optimization_of_video_clips

DG

Greetings Dave,

So if I read this right, "N.B. Video clips which require Trimming should be Converted/Optimized by right clicking on the clip and choosing “Convert Video Clip” before adding to the Slide List in order to preserve the setting of Full Slide Duration equal to Video Clip Duration", you can NOT trim a video clip without having it also automatically go through the Convert process?

Gary

[davegee]

Yes, you are correct, but VNX2 and the soon to be released VNXi will allow you to perhaps do a lot more before offering your video to PTE.

I note that you did not comment on my earlier post?

DG

[goddi]

Yes, you are correct, but VNX2 and the soon to be released VNXi will allow you to perhaps do a lot more before offering your video to PTE.

I note that you did not comment on my earlier post?

DG

"You can trim in-camera or in VNX2 and output in the same format/quality.

I recommend VNX2 for this - it does a good job."

Greetings Dave...

I saw it but I was not sure what VNX2 was. I also just saw your post on VNXi. Now I see that I have VNX2 installed on my PC but have not had the time to work with it, especially with video. Later today I will poke around with it to see what it does. Thanks for the reminder. But it would be nice if PTE could make it so you could just trim a video clip without having to put the clip through the Convert process. But, then, it does not work well with the original MOV format so trimming that format is not very accurate. Very shaky and jerky. I wonder why.

Gary

[Guest Yachtsman1]

"You can trim in-camera or in VNX2 and output in the same format/quality.

I recommend VNX2 for this - it does a good job."

Greetings Dave...

I saw it but I was not sure what VNX2 was. I also just saw your post on VNXi. Now I see that I have VNX2 installed on my PC but have not had the time to work with it, especially with video. Later today I will poke around with it to see what it does. Thanks for the reminder. But it would be nice if PTE could make it so you could just trim a video clip without having to put the clip through the Convert process. But, then, it does not work well with the original MOV format so trimming that format is not very accurate. Very shaky and jerky. I wonder why.

Gary

But it would be nice if PTE could make it so you could just trim a video clip without having to put the clip through the Convert process. But, then, it does not work well with the original MOV format so trimming that format is not very accurate. Very shaky and jerky. I wonder why.

Gary

Hi Gary

I'm still 99.9% convinced it did in 7.5 which is why I made the tutorial.

I have been downloading the up-grades in VNX2 for a couple of years now just in case I ever bought a Nikon camera again, remember it will only accept Raw & Video from a Nikon camera, it will however accept non Nikon Jpegs. The screen shot may not be the current version.

Eric

Yachtsman1.

[davegee]

Gary,

Your original post suggested that you were using Nikon movies (and that your camera is set for sRGB ) so that is why I mentioned it.

If you do your trimming there and then save it and run it through the other software before PTE you should have what you want. By making the trim a "rough trim" you still have the opportunity to do a precise trim in PTE at very little cost in terms of file size.

DG

[goddi]

Gary,

Your original post suggested that you were using Nikon movies (and that your camera is set for sRGB ) so that is why I mentioned it.

If you do your trimming there and then save it and run it through the other software before PTE you should have what you want. By making the trim a "rough trim" you still have the opportunity to do a precise trim in PTE at very little cost in terms of file size.

DG

Dave....

Yes, my videos mostly come from my Nikon D7000 DSLR (MOVs) and my camera is set for sRGB. I did a quick test of trimming an MOV from my D7000 with VNX2. Worked well. But I did notice that when I saved the trimmed clip, the bit rate changed from 11.2 to 16.5 (not sure why it changed). The frame rate changed from 23.976 to 29.970...but that was the default. I didn't notice that I could have kept it the same. So it works pretty nicely. Thanks for the tip. But I don't think there is a way to do a 'precise' trim with an MOV in PTE's Convert process. It plays way to jerky. But I do see the advantage of trimming the MOV clip in VNX2 and then running it through the Convert process in PTE.

Questions when saving an MOV for PTE that was trimmed in VNX2:

1- If I can change the frame rate, does it matter which one I choose if it is going into a PTE show?

2- The file types to choose from are: MOV (H.264/AAC), MOV (H.264/Linear PCM), MOV (MotionJPEG/Linear PCM). Which is preferable for PTE?

(I just updated my VNX2.)

Also, what does the attach message mean that I get in VNX2????

Thanks... Gary

[davegee]

Am I missing something?

I thought that you wanted to trim it before running it through Mercalli??

Having run it through Mercalli you could then Convert it to avi when you add it to the slide list.

Having done that and got a good result, the precise trimming can be done in O&A/Properties tab.

If you not getting a good result then you have to decide what the problem is and where the problem lies.

If you add the movie straight out of camera and convert, what happens?

Is the jerkiness that you speak of to do with bad camera technique or is it losing frames?

My mov files run smoothly when added and converted in this way.

[goddi]

Response below in bold.

Am I missing something?

-Not sure.

I thought that you wanted to trim it before running it through Mercalli??

-Yes, I want to trim the clip before I run it through Mercalli. VNX2 seems to be a good tool for this.

Having run it through Mercalli you could then Convert it to avi when you add it to the slide list.

-Yes, I understand that, but I want to have it trimmed before the Convert process.

Having done that and got a good result, the precise trimming can be done in O&A/Properties tab.

-Yes, I forgot about that feature. Good for tweaking the beginning and end of the clip.

If you not getting a good result then you have to decide what the problem is and where the problem lies.

-Yea...but that is the problem. I don know how to fix the problem. I can not get the clip to be as stabilized as I hope (in Mercalli).

If you add the movie straight out of camera and convert, what happens?

-The MOV gets converted and it runs smoothly.

Is the jerkiness that you speak of to do with bad camera technique or is it losing frames?

-When I preview an MOV in the Convert window, the jerkiness is from losing frames.

My mov files run smoothly when added and converted in this way.

-Yes, my MOVs run smoothly too after it has been converted. But due to the jerkiness in the Convert window, it is hard to be precise with trimming. So I can do the trimming in VNX2, the Convert in PTE.

Gary

[PGA]

Gary,

In an earlier post you wrote: "The frame rate changed from 23.976 to 29.970.."

That means that the software has changed the frames per second (fps) from 24 to 30. The only way it can do this is to add frames that were never there before. This runs the risk that the overall video may lose a little quality. The analogy with stills would be taking a small image and enlarging it in Photoshop. We all know that there is a limit to how much enlargement you can achieve before the image quality starts to suffer.

One other thought strikes me from the dialogue you've had with Dave: given that he can take MOV files from his Nikon straight into PTE with no problems and you are having problems doing that, are you, perhaps, up against a computer resource issue?

[davegee]

Gary,

When you create the Movie in VNX2 you can set whatever frame rate you want (from a list).

If you wanted to stay with 24fps (23.xxx) it is an option in the Create Menu. The default is 30fps (29.xxxx).

DG

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Just had a look at Ken Rockwell's review of your camera & I wondered what setting you are using to shoot video, remembering that PTE doesn't like HD?

I copied this from his review.

Video top

1,920 x 1,080/23.976p (no 25p, 29.97 or 59.94 ability.)

1,280 x 720/29.97p, 25p and 23.976p. (no 59.94 ability.)

640 x 424/29.97p and 25p (640 x 424 is a useless 3:2 aspect ratio!)

It's interesting to note that Nikon just can't keep up with the video resolution of Canon's DSLRs like the 7D and 5D Mark II. At 1,920, the Nikon can't run at 25p or 29.97p, which is OK since Hollywood shoots at 23.976 anyway. At the faster 25p or 29.97p rates, this Nikon can only shoot at 1,280! Canons also shoot at 59.94p in 640 and 1,280 for fluid motion, something completely absent in Nikon.

Maximum Recording Time: 20 minutes.

.MOV files holding H.264/MPEG-4 data.

http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/d7000/specifications.htm

Eric

Yachtsman1.