Surround Sound

[Tony Falla]

I have a 5.1 surround system on my PC. I have found that when I play a PTE project the sound only comes out of 2 speakers, in my case the back 2. Surround sound works as intended when I play an audio CD. Is there some option that needs to be set up in PTE to get surround sound to work?

[Alan Lyons]

Hi Tony,

is the sound file you are using a stereo file or is it set for surround sound?

Alan

[jgayman]

Ok... since you brought this up I thought I would relate a problem I just had. It resulted in a goofed slide show in front of about 100 people (my fault really).

We were using an A/V receiver with only two speakers. I could not launch the slide show to test so instead I had Musicmatch loaded and played a bunch of songs to check the sound levels, etc. Everything was good to go.

The time for the big show came and upon launching the music started fine BUT... the vocals in the songs were virtually non-existent. We were horrified. Sitting in the dark (literally) and not knowing what to do we rode it out.

After it was over and the lights were up we discovered the speakers were attached to the R/L REAR instead of the R/L FRONT. When we changed to the front all was well.

Why did the receiver process the PTE audio differently ? Had the vocals been suppressed on my test tracks from Musicmatch I would have instantly checked for problems but since they played fine I figured I was good to go.

Bottom line... test test and retest. Heck, even had I checked with headphones I would still have not found the problem.

Ideas anyone as to what was going on ?

Thanks !

[alrobin]

In Dolby surround-sound, the vocals are contained in a so-called "phantom channel" which is derived basically from the front L & R speakers. Hence, if you only have the back two speakers connected, you will hear instrumental but little vocal music.

One way to test the ability of PTE to produce suitable sounds is to temporarily replace the vocals in your show with the instrumental music that you can hear OK through the back channels. You should hear it equally well through PTE as separately on their own from the CD or mp3 player.

In Dolby 5.1 however, the surround effects are encoded right into the audio so that you need a 5.1-compatible amp with speakers set up properly to achieve the true surround sound.

[Tony Falla]

Sorry I am new to this, the question of is it a surround sound file or a stereo sound file is new to me. I have been using audacity to create an mp3 file which I then used in PTE, I obviously have missed something in Audacity need to go and investigate.

[alrobin]

Tony,

It really has nothing to do with Audacity or any other sound editor (unless you are using one of the more advanced editors such as Cubase which can create surround-sound files.)

If you are using the back speakers only and playing a surround-sound-encoded piece of music, you will hear it differently than if you play a non-surround-sound piece from PTE through your pc.

[Tony Falla]

I am missing something here, I am new to sound files and the PC with surround sound is new. There is a lack of understanding on my part, so I have decided to investigate further. I may be new to sound files but I have been using computers for nearly 40 years.

I have found that if I take an MP3 sound file and player it on Windows Media Player, then all 5 speakers are used. If how ever I put that MP3 sound file into either Audacity or PTE when I play the sound file in those two pieces of software, only two speakers are working, in my case the back two.

I presume that part of Windows Media Player in simplistic terms takes the MP3 sound file and in effect directs it to the speakers so the sound is produced. In the same way Audacity and PTE must have a similar piece of software to Windows Media Player in it or link in to some other sound player software, again to produce the sound. This suggests to me several possibilities

1. There is something needs to be set up in the Windows Sound software to allow other programs to use the surround sound facility. If there is I haven’t as yet found it.

2. The software in Audacity / PTE needs to be set up to play surround sound.

3. The sound player software in Audacity / PTE is not as sophisticated as Windows Media and only directs sound to 2 speakers as though it was a stereo track.

4. I need to link Windows Media Player to Audacity / PTE to get surround sound

Can I ask some further questions?

1. Are people using surround sound with PTE without problem, i.e. is it only me who is experiencing this problem?

2. If other people have experienced the problem how did they solve it?

[alrobin]

Tony,

When I play a piece of music through PTE I can hear it properly on all 5 speakers plus my sub-woofer - sounds great. And it sounds the same as when I play the same piece from the CD.

Your system must not be set up correctly, particularly if you are only hearing the sounds from PTE through the back speakers. I'm afraid I can't help you without actually going through the setup procedure for your amp. The amp should interpret the music regardless of where it is coming from.

[Kurt S]

I have to agree with Alrobin. It sounds like you have the rear channels in the front and vice versa. Double check your speaker connections. If it is playing in all channels in Windows Media Player, you probably have the SRS surround effect turn on.

I would do all testing in Audacity for now since it will give you the correct speaker placement without adding surround effects or any of the the other EQ and enhancements that WMP can offer.

[Tony Falla]

Thanks for the help I am starting to get somewhere with this problem. I discovered this morning on the PC a piece of software called SoundMAX which appears to control sound to speaker output.

On this I discovered that there was a facility for saying what your speaker set up was. Mine was set to Quadraphonic, so I reset to 5:1 Surround Sound. It also had a facility for testing that sounds were coming out of the right speaker. This proved, I think some people already suspected this, that my wiring was incorrect. So I now have my speakers wired correctly and set up to 5:1 Surround Sound.

In Audacity I found that within file – preferences there is a facility to set up the playback / recording device, also in sndrec32.exe within PTE there is the same facility via edit – audio properties.

So in both of these I set the output / input devices to SoundMAX Digital Audio thinking this would solve my problems but it didn’t. I am half way there the sound in Audacity / PTE now comes out of the front speakers but I now get nothing from the rear two speakers.

I will keep investigating.

[Kurt S]

Having it come out of just the front two speakers is exactly what it should be doing with an mp3 or wave file. You will only get 5.1 audio if you are listening to something with Dolby Ditgital, DTS or DVD audio content.

If you want it to emulate a surround mix with a stereo program, you will need something like Dolby Pro Logic circuitry. This may be built into the sound card. Have a look at the Soundmax program and see if that option is available.

[Conflow]

Surround Sound

Kurt, I absolutely agree with your explaination - indeed it is difficult for people to understand that 5:1 Audio or Surround Sound is actually a 'Digitised Instruction Set' implanted into the origional Music CD-Disc as well as the Stereo Music Tracks.

In most circumstances the CD will play 'Normal Stereo' on normal Stereo Equipment. However if that CD is played on specialised equipment with 'Surround Sound Decoding' then of course you get the 'Surround Sound Effect' (provided all Speakers are active).

When you use the "Audacity Sound Editor" - it simply import the 'Stereo Sound Tracks' and ignores the 'Digitised Instruction Set' - because its not equipped with the appropriate Decoders -

There are various types of 'Surround Sound Decoder Systems' adding to the confusion.

When you have finished with your 'Sound Editing' and export your sound-track as an MP3 File

(courtesy of an imported Lame-3 Encoder) all the 'Digitised Instructions' are abandoned so the

resultant File is simply an MP3 Stereo Track.

Brian.Conflow.

[Tony Falla]

Thanks for the information that an MP3 file will be a stereo file and therefore only appears through the front 2 speakers. I presume that this Dolby Pro Logic circuitry must be used in Windows Media Player as if I play an MP3 track in that I get surround track.

I have also proved that it is something in my set up as I downloaded one of Al Robinson’s AV’s (Desert Canyons) and when I play that the sound only comes out the 2 front speakers, although Al in his reply a few days ago said he had surround sound.

I have just discovered two additional features in my SoundMAX software called Virtual Theater and Virtual Ear with a tie up to a web site called Sensaura. I need to do some more exploring to see if I can emulate surround sound using these facilities.

[Conflow]

Hi Tony,

In connection with the 'Windows Media Player' and 'Surround Sound'. The Win Media Player does not use 'Dolby Pro-Logic' (a question of Licence) - it uses a 'WMA Digital Phase-Filtering System' some what like Akai, Nivico and Pioneer used many years ago although their Systems at that time were Analogue Audio producing a 'life-like' Surround Effect.

Not all 'Win Media Players' produce 'clone' Surround Sound - it depends on the version installed on the PC. and whether your 'Sound Card' will support the WMA S.S Signals.

One must not forget that there are many 'Surround Sound Systems' but most Computer Manufacturers and their associated 'Card Manufacturers' comply with PC.Industrial Standards so that all Hardware & Software is cross-compatible (otherwise chaos) and in order to support '98se' - 'XP - 2000 Operating Systems there has to be Standards - one of those is the WMA.S.S.Standard which is used in later versions of Windows Media Player but it requires a compatible Sound Card and is by now a 'de facto Industrial Standard'.

There are some 'Custom PC's out there that incorporate a 'Dolby S.S.Sound Card' and its associated Software and do the genuine job - they are "Application Specific' - expensive and are usually deployed in the Professional Audio Industry at the top end.

Brian.Conflow.

[Kurt S]

And now that we have that all sorted out, they just came out with MP3's that are surround capable.

Have a look here, it looks interesting - http://www.iis.fraunhofer.de/amm/techinf/l...r3/index.html#3

Hey Conflow, have a look at some of the newer Turtle Beach cards. These things are awesome for home and light pro use and do both the Dolby digital and DTS decoding now. http://www.turtlebeach.com/site/products/s...cards/catalina/

[Conflow]

Hi Kurt,

I'm off on Vacation in a few hours - No, I haven't heard of 'Turtle Beach Cards' - but I had some pre-data on the 'Fraunhofer MP3 Developments' when I was in Germany last year.

As far as I recollect I think the 'Fraunhofer MP3 Encoder' is used in the "Nero Wave Editor" (also German) and it costs a bunch - but man oh man- does it perform and what a program Nero Wave Editor really is, one word - brilliant.

Many thanks for the Turtle Beach "tip". I have saved your 'Post' and shall certainly have a good look at their Web-data on my return. Again many thanks for that consideration.

I wish you a very Happy Christmas,

Cheers,

Brian.Conflow.

[Tony Falla]

I have just noticed in PTE there is a facility to change the path and name of the sound editor, under View –Advanced Options. I cannot see how this can be used other than typing in another sound editor, e.g. Windows Media Player. I have tried that and it doesn’t appear to make any difference. Is this an area I should be exploring further or should I just leave it alone and accept I am only going to get Stereo sound from PTE

[Kurt S]

should I just leave it alone and accept I am only going to get Stereo sound from PTE

The problem is not with PTE, and changing the sound editor won't make any difference. The problem is that wave files and MP3's are two channel stereo formats. You can't get true surround from a two channel audio source.

Now they have just introduced a surround MP3 format. You might be able to use one of those for surround slideshow. On the sites I mentioned in my last post, they have demo's of surround MP3's. You might try downloading on of those and put it in a slideshow and see if it works.

[Tony Falla]

Sorry Guys but I am confused, not (as you may have gathered) that it takes much to get me confused, but this subject seems to have gone a full circle.

It started off with the fact that my PTE projects were only producing sound from 2 speakers, not the 5 of the surround system. A couple of people said that their PTE projects produced surround sound and the effect was marvellous.

I am now being told that if I use wave or mp3 files in my projects I will only get stereo sound (i.e. 2 speakers) unless I use a new form of mp3 files which cater for surround sound.

Are the people who said that their PTE did produce surround sound using these new mp3 files?

[Kurt S]

Hi Tony, sorry about all the confusion.

For now, as to avoid confusion, let's keep it simple and ignore the new surround format for MP3's and stick with the old standards.

An MP3 or wave file is a two channel stereo containing no surround information what-so-ever. PTE has nothing to do with it. All PTE does is incorporate the sound file into the executale slideshow, it does not alter the sound in any way.

Now there are electronic circuitries such as Dolby Pro Logic that can take a two channel signal and emulate a surround sound. This is done by phasing. Lets look breifly at how a song is mixed together. I am going to over simplify this, (all you audio engineers can stop laughing now!) Usually the main vocal is mixed in mono meaning it is the exact same signal coming out of the left and right speakers. Both signals going to the left and right channels are perfectly in phase with each other. Next you have backup vocals, guitars, keyboards, horns etc. To make a stereo mix, you need to pan these intruments slightly louder in one channel then the other. There are also other ways to make them sound stereo such as putting the signal in one channel out of phase in varying amounts from the other channel.

Now this is where Dolby Pro Logic comes in. If the signal is in mono, it will put the sound in the center channel. The more the signal is out of phase with the other channel is how Pro Logic determines how much of that signal is to be put in the rear surround speakers. And any signal that is below 120Hz is put into the subwoofer channel.

So hopefuly I have given you a little insight as to how pseudo surround emulator works. If people are claiming that PTE is producing surround sound, then the original audio file they used is what is creating the surround sound effect in conjunction with a Pro Logic or other such surround emulation circuitry. It has nothing to do with PTE.

"Are the people who said that their PTE did produce surround sound using these new mp3 files?"

Doubtful. This format has just been released in the last few weeks. I doubt 99% of the users here know of it (no disrespect to anyone). WMA audio files have the ability to use 5.1 surround in a true discreet channel mix with Windows XP. If anyone is creating slideshows with a true surround format, they are probably using the WMA format

[alrobin]

Hi, Tony,

I was one of those saying I can get a surround effect through PTE. Like Kurt says, it is a "pseudo" surround effect, but sounds great, nevertheless, although, admittedly, not with all the bells and whistles that true Surround 5.1 posesses.

However the original questions were how to get sound from the front speakers, and all I was trying to show was that it is possible to have sound from all 5 speakers using PTE. Maybe my sound card is equipped with Dolby Pro, but I really don't know. I do know, however, that with Cubase SX2 it is possible to create true Surround 5.1, but to this day I haven't tried it. Maybe this winter when I can find time to fiddle with it I'll report back re the ability of PTE to play it properly.

[Tony Falla]

Am I correct as interpreting all of this as the most likely reason I am not getting surround sound from my PTE projects is that my sound card does not support Dolby Pro Logic. Therefore if I want an emulated surround sound I would have to install a sound card that does support Dolby pro logic.

Thanks for all the help I think I now know how to proceed

[Kurt S]

Alrobin, I would be interested in your surround experiments and if PTE can use a surround encoded wma or mp3.

Tony, it could be the fact that your sound card doesn't have Pro Logic (or similar circuitry) or it could be that you just don't have it turned on. If your sound card has it's own mixing or configuration software, look in there for the different settings. Also if you could post your sound cards make and model, I'd be glad to look up the specs for you.

If your not sure of the make and model, go here http://www.lavalys.com/products/overview.p...p?pid=1〈=en and download and install Everest. it will show you the hardware in your system.

[Tony Falla]

Hi Kurt

Thanks for the offer I must admit that until I got interested in PTE I had never given sound on the PC a thought all I had ever done was put a CD in and sound came out of the speakers ergo it was working.

Now you have asked me to find out what my sound card is I think I may have part of the problem I don’t know if this makes sense but I don’t appear to have one. I have downloaded Everest as you suggested and when I start looking for a sound card there does appear to be one. Looking at the specification of the PC it states that it has Onboard 5.1 Surround Sound 6 Channel Audio.

In Everest it says that the mother board is an Asus P4R800-VM (3 PCI, 1 AGP, 4 DDR DIMM, Audio, Video, LAN), does this mean that the sound card is in effect part of the motherboard?

The Mother board chipset is ATI Radeon 9100 IGP and the Audio Adapter is an ATI SB200 - AC'97 Audio Controller.

Does this make any sense?

[Kurt S]

Yup, your soundcard is built right on the motherboard. It is an AC'97.

It looks like you got the Sound Max software with that.

The instructions are rather vague but it does look like it provides some sort of surround emulation with the MultiDrive™ 5.1 feature.

I can't say I'm real impressed with this soundcard though. it mentions nothing of being able to decode Dolby Digital or DTS or anything about a real 5.1 surround setup. It looks like it is mostly for emulating surround for games.

If your interested in getting a better card, have a look here - http://www.turtlebeach.com/site/products/soundcards/ All these cards can emulate a surround sound from a 2 channel source. And all will decode Dolby Digital and DTS surround formats as well as DVD multichannel audio.