For Igor - New Suggestion

[Lin Evans]

Lately I've been testing a variety of ways to achieve the Ken Burns effects including competitive products like ProShow Gold and various Flash tools.

The way to "trump" the competition is to have usable features they don't have and it's perhaps easier to see their mistakes and not make them.

Presently, ProShow Gold has the best overall implementation of the Ken Burns effects of the many slideshow softwares which I've tested, but they have two issues which I hope Igor can greatly improve on.

First: PSG gives a starting point and an ending point for any "single slide". You can zoom or pan or rotate for the beginning then set the ending to do likewise and the program "calculates" the vector positions, zooms, pans, rotates between these two positions and the action is smooth and works well. But this is short of what is "needed" for such an application. What is needed is rather than only two positions (start and end) for a particular slide is three choices. 1. A starting point with pan, zoom, rotate. 2. An intermediate point where this action terminates with proper vectors between to effect the desired result. 3. The ability to "continue" to display the "same" slide after the actions are completed so that further actions such as following transitions, text scrolling, etc., are possible without inserting a duplicate slide and matching the end result of the first slide with the beginning of the second or "duplicate" slide. When you must insert a duplicate slide there is "always" some slight "break" in the smoothness as the next slide loads no matter how carefully the position match or whether "decelerate, linear, or accelerate" are chosen as actions and no matter which type of fade or cross-fade is used at the transition point. These issues could all be avoided if the user were allowed to continue an action on the individual slide rather than having to load a duplicate. A situation where this might be applicable would be for scrolling a 360 pano then scrolling text on that same slide after returning to a mid position.

The second issue is to have "graphical" text effects in addition to "fonts" with bold, italics, and sizes, etc. A good program to see these in action is Media@Show which has some of the most fantastic text effects of any present slideshow.

Another major mistake, in my opinion, which ProShow Gold has made is to output their web shows using Microsoft's ActiveX. In surveys I conducted on multiple forums trying to get people to look at slideshow output using PhotoDex's implementation of ActiveX there was extreme push-back. Windows users are simply afraid of having ActiveX enabled because it serves as a portal for hackers to transmit worms to the user's system. It would be far better, in my opinion, to perhaps form a union or agreement with a company which provides Flash FLV encoding to perhaps use their engine (for royalties of course) to output Flash code which can be viewed by nearly anyone on the web. Think Riva Producer and Riva Encoder here - look at it and think about perhaps some cooperative venture which might be profitable for all.

I for one would be more than willing to pay for a new or additional license to Igor for the additional values of having the ability to output to flash built in to P2E. As it is, I can take P2E AVI output and convert using Riva Encoder to Flash FLV and then use Riva Producer to export simple HTML code and put this on the web, but wouldn't it be nice to have both in one product and perhaps be profitable for both developers if the products were welcomed by a broader audience?? Just something to think about....

If anyone is interested in seeing what a P2E slideshow looks like exported in Flash please let me know and I'll post one......

Best regards,

Lin

[LumenLux]

Sure Lin, post it and it will be watched. I'm certainly interested.

[Ronniebootwest]

I have 'dabbled' with flash with some success in the past but I think the whole process is a little cumbersome and time consuming. I would like to see your example of a PTE show exported to flash. (I assume this will be a SWF file)

Ron West

[ADB]

Same here Lin, would love to see it!

[alrobin]

Lin,

I have dabbled with Flash, and while it cannot replace PTE in terms of smooth fade effects, I tend to agree with you as far as zoom is concerned. Unless Igor can come up with an algorithm of his own, of course. He has already produced an excellent pan capability.

More and more image programs are providing an output to Flash format. I seem to remember that Igor has already indicated that he intends to look into the possibility of doing so with PTE.

[Lin Evans]

Yes, once Igor has the Ken Burns effects programmed, then the next step is to determine how we might be able to play them over the web in a sort of universal format. Presently the major formats are QTVR (apple), Flash (MacroMedia/Adobe), Java (Sun - primarily) and ActiveX (Microsoft).

Of these, it makes sense to me to use Flash. ActiveX is not trusted and doesn't work for non-Windows systems, Java is a possibility, but not as easily implemented, QTVR is more limited as I understand but Flash is pretty universal.

The link below is to a Flash implementation of one of my P2E slideshows. In this case it will probably work better for those with broadband because of the display size and audio quality. This one was encoded from a P2E AVI output in Microsoft mpeg 4 with stereo audio. It has a 10 second buffer and is rendered in the progressive output mode.... This means it is spooled out to a temp file on your hard disk then played back in real-time. This is "similar" in process to "streaming" but doesn't require you to have expensive and specialized streaming software on a dedicated server. Streaming spools it from the server rather than from your own hard disk like "progressive". Streaming prevents theft while progressive is vulnerable to theft because of the creation of the temp file on the viewer's hard disk. But normally, for what most of us display on the web and in the resolution we would display a slideshow, theft is a non-issue. Obviously when we post a slideshow in executable form and let people download it this is a much more vulnerable practice than a much lower resolution flash show. There is no perfect solution, but I think this is a viable alternative.

Link below:

Lin

http://www.lin-evans.net/andersonshow/andersonart.html

[Lin Evans]

have 'dabbled' with flash with some success in the past but I think the whole process is a little cumbersome and time consuming. I would like to see your example of a PTE show exported to flash. (I assume this will be a SWF file)

Hi Ron,

Actually not (an SWF). An SWF format encodes the entire video in a single file which can't be streamed or played in progressive mode. This would make the file way too large. SWF also has a limitation of 16,000 frames per instance (movie) so at 30 frames per second that would greatly limit the length of a slideshow. In general, SWF files are limited to clips of 30 seconds or less for practical appllications.

On the other hand Flash FLV files have no such limitation either in length or number of frames. In this format they can be streaming or progressive. Unless one has huge finantial resources and owns their own server (think large companies), progressive is the way to go because it doesn't require expensive server software. Progressive mode downloads a temp file to the users computer and streams from that in real time.

It's really not difficult at all encode the output of a P2E slideshow in Flash FLV, you simply need the proper software. Riva Producer ($30) and Riva encoder (free) work together to both encode the AVI output (also mpeg output, etc.) from P2E (P2E outputs AVI and sound using a number of compatble CODEC's) and create the necessary html and other files which it also uploads to your site. All you need to know is enough to tell the program where you want the files placed on your web and what to name the html, etc. Then you simply call the html in your link and the person viewing sees a player complete with controls (pause, play, volume) which plays your "movie" (slideshow, etc.) for them when they click the link.

Best regards,

Lin

[alrobin]

Lin,

Thanks for posting this info and the link to the example. It's very impressive. I found that my pc wasn't keeping up to the streaming (or vice versa), though, and the show stopped mid-stream in a few places near the middle.

I've never been too impressed with the alpha dissolves in Flash, but the dissolves in your example are not bad for a web production. Here's hoping Igor will come up with an even better way to achieve the Ken Burns effects in an actual show as well as the ability to convert to Flash for web viewing. What software did you use for the MPEG conversion?

Woops - you answered my question as I was typing it. Thanks for the info. I'll have to give it a whirl!

[Lin Evans]

Hi Al,

Yes, this is actually larger and at higher resolution than one would normally want to code a Flash slideshow for the web. I pushed the envelope a little to see what kind of quality was possible and still keep it reasonably small in terms of storage overhead.

Here's a link to one of my samples using the Ken Burns effect which was encoded form a PSG mpeg output. It's about the same (30 fps and stereo sound) as the P2E show I linked, but you can get a feel for the Ken Burns effect as implemented with flash output. I also linked this in the post asking about the Ken Burns effect. Since these are progressive, if you go back an play them the second time I suspect the temp file still resides on you hard disk so they should play smoothly the second time around. If you move the mouse cursor (mouseover) into the slideshow the player controls should be revealed so you can pause, start and adjust volume, etc.

Best regards,

Lin

Link below:

http://www.lin-evans.net/testflv/rivatest.html

[alrobin]

Thanks again, Lin

Not bad for a web-based application. As I mentioned before, the dissolves still leave something to be desired, but the other effects are quite impressive. Nice images, too.

[Lin Evans]

Not bad for a web-based application. As I mentioned before, the dissolves still leave something to be desired, but the other effects are quite impressive. Nice images, too.

Hi Al,

Thanks.. Yes actually Flash isn't nearly as "good" at a quality slideshow via the web as ActiveX, not is it nearly as "compact" . The ActiveX code to produce this show is about 1/4 the size of the Flash and the quality is definitely better, but ActiveX limits the viewing to Windows users and also to those who are willing to have ActiveX enabled.

The problems with ActiveX hackers has made what could be a great thing into less of an option. Flash just isn't quite as amenable to the very smooth dissolves which are possible with ActiveX but the choices of web output are severely constrained by the need or desire for movement (Ken Burns effect, etc.,). So it's a decision we must make about safety versus quality - not easy.....

Best regards,

Lin

[alrobin]

Lin,

I've posted a query about how to use Riva on the other "Ken Burns" thread, so won't repeat it all here.

[Igor]

Thank you, Lin

We'll try to make possible complex movement for Pan/Zoom/Rotate effects in the next version (using several keyframes or maybe another method).

Personally, I think, there is not enough smooth Pan/Zoom effect in Flash realization (these effects require absolutely another graphical engine). ProShow has smooth these effects, but it doesn't provide enough sharp picture (only 800x600 in any screen resolution).

[Guest guru]

Personally, I think, there is not enough smooth Pan/Zoom effect in Flash realization

I totally agree with Igor. The movements in Flash are definitely too jerky.

[Rskid]

Have you seen Photo Story 3 for Windows?

Anyone try it, Its free from MS, but I haven't tried it yet

[Lin Evans]

I totally agree with Igor. The movements in Flash are definitely too jerky.

But what then is a workable alternative for displaying slideshows on the web? QTVR isn't viable, Java is questionable for resolution and ActiveX is not compatible with MacIntosh browsers and has hacker risks. So what would you suggest as an alternative?

Best regards,

Lin

[Igor]

Of course, for web Flash is better and only one variant! Usually Flash animation work only in small part of screen and because of this it plays smoothly. For full screen playback it better to use another technology.

[potwnc]

He has already produced an excellent pan capability.

Which version of PTE has this capability? I have 4.41, which I thought was the latest, and I don't see any pan effect. Am I missing something?

Thanks in advance!

Ray

[alrobin]

Ray,

Check out the "Push" transition in 4.41. It's smooth as silk, just like the dissolves. There has been quite a bit of discussion on the forum the past few days centering around several panorama shows utilizing this transition.

[potwnc]

Al,

I checked out the Push transition (the one labelled "Push effect"). Certainly the pushing is very smooth, but I had a problem as follows. For an 800x600 slideshow, I scanned a slide at 1600x600. I then chopped it in the centre to create 2 800x600 images. I set the transition for both images to be push (right-to-left). No matter how I arrange the transition in the timeline, I get a gap (a thin, white vertical line) when the slideshow is previewed. What am I doing wrong?

Also, I searched in both forums going back 30 days using "push" as the keyword and couldn't find any of the discussion you referred to. Also, since Igor has written recently about his plans for pan and zoom, can we safely assume that this push effect is not his final solution to achieve a pan?

Ray

[JRR]

Ray:

Check out SNickles "360 degree panorama" at Beechbrook

click here

watch the show and read the txt file contained in the zip file

see also the PTE presentations forum discussion of it at:

here

[potwnc]

After checking these out I'm having a little more luck, but still failing to understand some things that I hope others can shed some light on...

The preview from the timeline always has the vertical lines I posted about before. With a duration of X + 1 millisecond (where X is the transition time), I can get the lines to disappear when I do a preview from the preview button, but then when I create a .exe the whole transition fails (it displays the slide before the "pushed" slide twice). Then when I produce an AVI the push transition is present again, but not very smooth at all.

All the other transitions I've worked with before in PTE behave identically in these 4 modes, so what should be different about this one?

[alrobin]

Ray,

You're right, in the preview on the timeline you get a white vertical line indicating the separation between the two images, but in the large-screen preview it should be OK. I haven't tried 800x600, but I just made an 8-image panorama (4 horizontal, 2 vertical levels) and everything worked fine in the large preview. It was an object-controlled show, however, not one synched to music.

The problems you're having with the "exe" file could be due to a slow pc, or other things going on in the background, as 1 millisecond between transitions is pretty demanding on processor time in a synched show. If the time between transitions is too short, the previous slide will repeat.

Try using a longer duration time, and then reducing it until the glitch reappears. About 150 ms, on top of a 4-sec transition, is about the maximum my pc will handle, full-screen at 1024x768 px.

What settings are you using? Windowed mode? Fit to screen?

I don't know about panoramas in AVI as I never use this mode.

For previous postings, try a search on "panorama". All the best with your experimenting.

[ronwil]

I use 1024x768 but for a two slide panorama I resize the two images to 1025x768 and find that that gets rid of the line between the two when using the push slide effect.

Ron [uK]

[DaveG]

I have used this effect a number of times since it was first brought to the attention of the forum and had no problems with white lines etc. Perhaps it is to do with the way the two images are being produced.

My method is to start with a 2048x768 image and then set my crop dimensions in photoshop to 1024x768. I first do a crop from the top left and save the result as the "a" version. Then I go back a few steps in the history pallette and do a crop from top right and save as the "b" version.

Never had a white, or any other colour, line and never had to adjust for an extra pixel. Magic!

DaveG