forum AV

[Ken Cox]

I think if we all went back to Dave's first post explaining what he would like to accomplish there would be and read it there would be no confusion as to what he would like to accomplish

from original post

I don't think I have to give my personal reasons for wanting to say this, but I know we all feel the same way for wanting world peace.

After reading some of the seasons greatings all this became clear, WE, want to do something. So lets show the world how we feel. How? Simple. If every forum member was to submit a maximum of three images that symbolise peace, we would produce a members AV and show our message to all Nations. ( not graphic images of violence but every-day living, culture and human kindness etc. etc).

Lets have some "chocolate box" landscapes etc, its up to you use your imagination and creativity.

this is just an idea for now but one that WILL come to fruition very soon, as soon as all the logistics and web hosting are sorted. Al has already offered his site. So come on guys and gals get the dust of your camera and your **** (Butt) out of that computer chair, Then give us a commitment here. and watch this space.

now

we asked questions to clarify things, myself and Hawk worked with Bill to get the upload system working -- i tried to help Ed and i think he was the first to test the upload system

I threw out some bait for free royalty free music -- fish were not biting i guess

there have been hints for a leader -- no takers

I remember the struggle that the people that wanted prints to show how the "3rd image" worked -- twas like getting blood from a stone

Bill said there are 27 prints on file -- one of them is a newspaper clipping that i put up for the producers to explain the signifcance of the flags and the bridges -- was not intended to be put in a show

when i look at some of the shows that members have produced i know the talent is here -- i would not even attempt some of the shows i have seen -- way beyond my capabilities

was a good idea Dave

maybe another time, very disappointing -- "I want but I dont want to give" seems to rule

Ken

[Bethan]

Hi again,

Ken wrote :

was a good idea Dave

maybe another time, very disappointing -- "I want but I dont want to give" seems to rule

While respecting Ken's comments I would wish to disagree here. Yes 'Peace', as a concept, is a powerful one that has some meaning in everyone's life. That there are just 27 images uploaded suggests, though, that there is a creative or 'other' block preventing people from contributing. In reality 'peace' can be an elusive entity (think of the Middle East). A project such as this one will likely experience some of the same conflicts of understanding.

I have to say I am a little cautious with regard to 'chocolate box landscapes' adequately depicting 'peace' as either a process or a goal. Peace, like war, can be a messy business.

If people choose to label requests for clarity as "I want but I dont want to give" then we begin to see how easily conflict evolves? With such an emotional subject people will of course seek clarity - which in itself is actually showing a willingness to get involved!

Beth

[ronwil]

Peace? An image which makes me feel at peace with the world. An image which when blended subtly with others to a background of soft music gives that feeling of peace. Not a sequence of harsh realities - murder, bigotry, doom and gloom etc which more often than not make the headlines.

Ron [uK]

[Ken Cox]

And the pictures that have been posted look very peaceful to me - no guns no blood as Dave originally requested, just a collection of peacefull "chocolate box" scenes -- we just need more:)

ken

[Ed Overstreet]

I wasn't going to stick my oar in again, but maybe someone has to, so here goes again.

C'mon folks, how difficult is it to find three images that make you think of peace or of things peaceful? I contributed three images (five actually, two alternate versions of one to give the producers something to work with). I didn't spend hours and days brooding over this; it wasn't "rocket science."

I've contacted damor privately and offered to help with production, but only as part of a team effort, and I don't want to be involved in the music selection. But we need more than one or two people on the production team. This should be a diverse international effort, in my view anyway, or it's not worth the candle.

We also need more than 29 images. And it wouldn't make sense to me, if I were the one doing the music selection and copyright negotiating or whatever is needed, to start going through all that until I have a clear idea of how many images are going into the show. I don't start selecting music for my own shows until I have a clear idea what images, and how many images, I'm going to be dealing with. Twenty-nine images isn't worth it. We need more. Where are they?

Instead of finding reasons not to contribute or participate, how about finding some reasons to do so, and just do it (like a handful of us already have)?

Hello?

(Apologies Dave, I found I couldn't wait for a more diplomatic wording from you as I suggested. So be it.)

[d67]

Instead of finding reasons not to contribute or participate, how about finding some reasons to do so, and just do it (like a handful of us already have)?

?????????????????????????????

[Ken Cox]

If any body wants to review the submissions to date see

http://www.beechbrook.com/avproject/sub/

http://www.beechbrook.com/avp/

it is easy enough to navigate just click the first small pict on left then the big one on the right and just keep clicking to the end

ken

[Guest damor]

Ok Folks, One last effort. I realy dont know what to say but here goes anyway. My reason for wanting to do this were two fold.

1 for my children and your children

2 for your children and my children

If the world continues the way it is heading what chance have they got of seeing "choclate box" images in the unforseeable future. they are fast disappearing through development as it is.

This is a reminder, a chance of showing what could become a thing of the past. Lets not be philosphical over this, lets just be "down to earth" and send in some images. I might be naive in this thinking but would some music mogul object if we used some royalty free music ? the choice of which would be down to the producer, (with the backing of contributing forum members)

It like many other things in this world is not guarenteed to work and it wont if we dont try.

So come on folks ONE LAST EFFORT BY MONDAY. submit 6 images if that would help.

Dave (pretty please with a cherry on top)

[Ed Overstreet]

It just occurred to me that some folks might find it difficult to locate the submission site, which Bill posted about forty messages earlier on this thread. I had trouble finding it myself a few minutes ago; here is the link for uploading image contributions to this project:

http://www.beechbrook.com/avp/

[ronwil]

Thanks ED for bringing the Beechbrook submissions to the fore. Having looked once again what has been uploaded and bearing in mind what I said a few posts ago on my definition of peace in an image, I don't consider nationalism in the shape of flags and a montage of warplanes etc. peaceful.

Ron [uK]

[Hawk]

ronwil

and a montage of warplanes etc. peaceful.

No matter what pictures we look at maybe people are to judgmental about what brings peace to the soul of another human being. That could be one of the reasons why we have problems with peace in the world today.

When I submitted my images, I included an explanation of photos. I also stated that posting of these pictures to the show was left up to the discretion of the author.

Regards

[The oldie]

I really think you have something splendid in this idea. My friend "Jevans" and I are in regular contact and I will have discussion with him on ideas for this special sequence. I also would be delighted to submit say three pics in the required resolution with captions ?

Is there maybe some poetry about world peace or a suitable song ?

Once such a sequence was made , it would be easy for all the forum people interested to spread it around to all sorts of clubs and organisations where audio visual sequences are shown.

My own club has a "Roadshow" of local sequences about our area of the NE of England, Northumberland and so on. We show this to outside clubs, not just photographic societies, and of course a "Peace in the World" sequence would go very well with this.

Alan in NE England.

[e.b.west]

Were mine not acceptable? They're not on the review page.

[Ken Cox]

e.b.

when did you post them

there were some put up early this am

ken

[d67]

Sorry but there must be a problem of comprehension.

World peace is a very good idea !

A mother with her baby, a cat playing with a dog , as serene landscape, photo of a sunrise over seashore, children of different skin colors playing together, etc ... are universally recognised as peaceful photos.

Are you sure that

- photo 3 ; a bad looking girl !

- photo 24 ; a couple of war and devastation machines (A10 Warthog "tank killer" and P51 Mustang + bomber cockpit),

- photos 12, 16, 28 ; 3/34 photos (10% !!!) of church interior (from far not universal !),

- photo 25 ; metal bridge, without a comment, totally uncomprehensible as peace message,

- photo 17 ; studio photo of a sorrowful girl

- photo 20, 31 ; 2 flags ... too nationalist

- photo 13, 21 ; uncomprehensible for not english or not latin speakers !

... are you sure these photos are universal and undoubtly give a message of world peace ??????

If so, sure there is a long way before reaching this goal !!!

That's why we are very shy uploading photos before the project is better tied up !!!

[Ken Cox]

Patrick you are not seeing the comments that are included with the pkg that is fwd'd with each submission so how can you critisize what is being presented

ken

[alrobin]

Are you sure that

- photo 3 ; a bad looking girl !

- photo 24 ; a couple of war and devastation machines (A10 Warthog "tank killer" and P51 Mustang + bomber cockpit),

- photos 12, 16, 28 ; 3/34 photos (10% !!!) of church interior (from far not universal !),

- photo 25 ; metal bridge, without a comment, totally uncomprehensible as peace message,

- photo 17 ; studio photo of a sorrowful girl

- photo 20, 31 ; 2 flags ... too nationalist

- photo 13, 21 ; uncomprehensible for not english or not latin speakers !

... are you sure these photos are universal and undoubtly give a message of world peace ??????

Patrick,

Are you sure you're not just trying to stir up some discussion on this topic?

First of all, rather than criticize the submissions why not submit some "suitable" ones of your own, and then maybe the project will be more likely to go in the direction you think it should?

As far as photo #3 is concerned, to me it speaks of peace (regardless of how sour the woman looks) in that it is a photo of a young couple (who could represent a certain middle east religion) surrounded by buildings of an entirely different and opposite religion. Since I believe that most unrest in the world has begun and continues to exist due to differing religious views, I find that this photo is symbolic of the first thing we need to do in order to have peace - and that is to bring people of different religions together and iron out their differences, and in doing so, make them realize that basically their beliefs are really very similar.

Photo 13 speaks of remembrance (read the title) which is one of the first essential steps in eliminating war and conflict.

Photo 31 -I don't see a flag there.

Photo 17 - maybe the girl is lamenting the absence of peace in the world. After all, in AV it takes the combination of an image with suitable music or sound to convey the whole message.

Patrick, with your background in photography, you must realize that photos are very subjective, so what says one thing to one person often draws the opposite connotation from another.

Why not post some of your own photos (if you haven't already done so), so we can see just what your interpretation of the topic might be and also provide the producer(s) with some "proper" material to work with??

[dadou]

I totaly agree with you, Patrick ....

Peace is a great idea, but the interpretation of it is quite different if you are into the plane or under it ....

Sorry, my english is too poor ...

[Guest damor]

Firstly Patrick ??????????????????????????????

Why say such things? people have differing views on what means peace surely you can see that?

Now to the good news, Maureen has been thinking it over re producing the show. after a week of debate and emails plus a Pretty Please, the lady from PTE she say YES!!!!!!

Please start to submit your images ASAP MAUREEN WILL HAVE TOTAL CONTROL OVER THE SHOW i.e SHE WILL have the final say on what goes. If anybody else would like to take over then say now or for ever hold your peace.

I move a Big vote of thanks and confidence in Maureen. 3 cheers.

[Guest damor]

Well said Al, I jumped in without reading all the posts. totaly in agreement.

P.s the girl who looks sad was used to depict a poem by Dylan Thomas called..love in an assylum. it won me a gold medal in the Swansea International. It is only a part of the finished picture, the whole image would not suite the project because it shows to many emotions, the model,Saffron, posed for this shot at my request and direction and I got the shot I wanted. so you were spot on.

Dave

[Ken Cox]

I move a Big vote of thanks and confidence in Maureen. 3 cheers.

I second the motion

let the chips fall where they may

i am at peace with the world every morning after my coffee -- now i wont have to submit that picture:)

ken

[Ed Overstreet]

I must say I can understand many of Patrick's reservations about some of the images already uploaded, though I think I can also understand the rationale the photographers had in most, perhaps all, of the cases.

The problem is one of "chicken and egg," though -- we don't have enough images of any sort to work with yet, and until we get more images we aren't going to have any show at all, or not have enough images that we can afford to be selective or to ask individual photographers if they mightn't have something else that might be less subject to un-peaceful interpretations by reasonable viewers.

Personally, I would (and have) avoided images with flags, even though I can think of some that might work in some perspectives. For example, there's a wonderful monument in Ottawa recently erected to honour our soldiers who have served in UN peace-keeping missions, but the statues show people all wearing military uniforms and many are carrying small arms -- which is the reality of peace-keeping forces, like it or not. It's also pretty hard to photograph it well without including the Canadian flag, of which there are a number surrounding the monument -- and I must say I have some pride in my country, its flag, and its contributions to UN peace-keeping efforts these past decades. But where does one draw the line? I deliberately omitted such images from my own submissions, though I could understand someone else submitting an image of that monument if there were some way of communicating the context without having to write a paragraph of explanation.

This is a slippery slope -- what is un-peaceful or potentially offensive to one person may not be to someone else, and in a collective effort how much editorial power do we grant to the producers? Peace also means trying to understand and accept (within reason) the well-meaning views and values of people whoses views and values are different from our own. Speaking as a potential team member, I'm reluctant to pass judgments on other peoples' images and ideas and visions of peace, because we all come from different perspectives and backgrounds. I can understand someone wanting to honour those who have fought and died so that we might have peace, which I think may be the rationale for some of the images Patrick mentions. Ruling out such images (or any other images) is a tricky judgment to make in a project that is supposed to be collective and to reflect acceptance, tolerance and understanding, and it's a judgment I would not make lightly.

Which raises another point, a delicate one but Patrick has raised it and it's very valid. Language. If the idea is to increase world understanding and peace through this show, my inclination would be to avoid words entirely -- no singing, no poetry, no slogans, no quotations, just non-verbal music and images which are universal and which don't require a short essay or even a formal title (in which language{s}?) to communicate the message intended. Even ruling out text or spoken words, if we rule them out, there remains the potentially thorny issue of what to do with a title slide and how to head the credit slide ("photographs by ...") -- that wording, of the title and of the "photographs by", arguably should be in more than one language, but then that raises the question of which languages and how many languages before the slides get so cluttered they lose their meaning and impact for most viewers.

These are issues the producers will need to grapple with, among others. But it's all moot if we don't have enough images to work with.

I uploaded three more images in the last 24 hours, which now appear on the website. I wasn't totally comfortable myself with all the other images we had, for some of the same reasons as Patrick, but I'm willing to keep contributing images that convey my vision of peace, up to whatever limit Bill and Dave want to set. I'd rather try to help by contributing more examples of what I think could/arguably should be in the show, than to hold back and contribute nothing.

I do hope we can get this off the ground; it would be sad if we couldn't. It won't be the end of the world if the project fizzles out from lack of contributions, but it would be nice if we could make this work somehow.

PS Of course as I was writing the above, a bunch of other posts appeared in the background that I didn't see. Apologies for the length of mine, some of my points are covered also by others more concisely.

Three cheers indeed for Maureen.

[Gilio]

maureen three kisses from me, I have upload some pictures and a PTE file of one min. as a start for the show maybe you can use it.cheers Giel.

[d67]

Photo 31 -I don't see a flag there.

Sorry, you probably corrected yourself... photo 21

First of all, rather than criticize the submissions why not submit some "suitable" ones of your own, and then maybe the project will be more likely to go in the direction you think it should?

I didnt criticize the photos but just pin pointed for what reason I don't find them undoubtly peacefull and are unsuited for a world peace project. Just my opinion... not necessary yours !

I gave my reasons why I didn't upload : unclear project to me.

To be universal the photos must be

- self explanatory with no need of a long comments (veterans, the couple with the bad looking girl)

- immediately recognized as peaceful for every habitant of this world, is he french, us, british, chinese, christian, jew, moslem, black, white, yellow.... ; a girl or a child laughing, a baby and his mother are .... A girl, a child looking sad or bad, a pair of warplanes surely not !!!!

- no reference to religions or nations

- no reference to particular situations only known by a few of us (the bridge)

- no text only understand by a few of us

Here a few very basic unquestionable and universal rules !

Are you sure you're not just trying to stir up some discussion on this topic?

I give my opinion. Sorry if it is not yours.

Is it absolutely necessary to have a unique thought ?

Sorry if my explanations can sometimes be interpretated as unclear or rude.

I am french and don't speak and understand english very fluently.

I have to try to translate the best way each of your words and have to translate the best way what I want to say.

Not so easy for such a subject !!!

[alrobin]

Maureen,

I can't think of anyone better to mediate the choice of images and produce this show about world peace. Thanks for picking this up!

Ed and Patrick, I agree with your comments about text. As far as the introduction is concerned, maybe someone from each country represented on the forum could contribute a translation for some simple introductory text, after it has been chosen by the producer, and that could be included on the introduction slide.

Patrick, my comment about stirring up discussion was meant to be a joke (hence the ) I thought from the sound of your comments that maybe you were playing "devil's advocate" (sorry, I don't know if you use that idiom in French). And, your English is perfectly good, by the way.

Maureen and Dave, good luck with the project!