Music Files

[chas merry]

Hi,

I have encountered a strange problem. I have created several of slideshows with added music saved as .wav. This made the final projects very large (90 to 100 MB). As I want to put these on a website I deleted the .wav file and replaced with the same music, but saved as a .mp3 file.

This is where the problem started!!!!!. The .mp3 file was a shorter duration?????.

Actual example: .wav was duration 7:24 when viewed in Adobe Audition. This file was then saved as mp3 and showed the same duration of 7:24.

In P2E the "Music Tab" showed the .wav file as 7:24. All well so far.

Removed .wav file and Added .mp3 file. Music duration now shows 6:55.

When viewed in the Timeline window Music end is 6:55, but the Music duration (shown at the bottom of the Customise Sync window) is different again, showing 7:22.

Obviously the sync of all the slides is now different etc. Am I going mad???? Can anyone offer any advice on how to remove the .wav files and insert an .mp3 file without any problems????

Any help / Advice would keep me sane. I have tried the same with a different slideshow, with similar results!!!!

Very frustrated. CHAS

[Conflow]

Hi,

I have encountered a strange problem. I have created several of slideshows with added music saved as .wav. This made the final projects very large (90 to 100 MB). As I want to put these on a website I deleted the .wav file and replaced with the same music, but saved as a .mp3 file.

This is where the problem started!!!!!. The .mp3 file was a shorter duration?????.

Actual example: .wav was duration 7:24 when viewed in Adobe Audition. This file was then saved as mp3 and showed the same duration of 7:24.

In P2E the "Music Tab" showed the .wav file as 7:24. All well so far.

Removed .wav file and Added .mp3 file. Music duration now shows 6:55.

When viewed in the Timeline window Music end is 6:55, but the Music duration (shown at the bottom of the Customise Sync window) is different again, showing 7:22.

Obviously the sync of all the slides is now different etc. Am I going mad???? Can anyone offer any advice on how to remove the .wav files and insert an .mp3 file without any problems????

Any help / Advice would keep me sane. I have tried the same with a different slideshow, with similar results!!!!

Very frustrated. CHAS

CHAS,

No, you are not going mad ~ what you have experienced is perfectly normal ~ let me simply explain whats going on !

a)

Wave Files (Wave Audio Files) are simple pure audio Tracks somewhat similar to what you would get on any standard LP.Vinyl Disc.

In order for you to hear the Audio Sounds the audio stream is sampled into the PC at a sampling rate of 44000 times/per second, this because a PC is a 'digital device' - and the sampling rate is necessary to create a 'digital-facsimile' of the origional Sounds.

These 'facsimile' Files take up inordinate amount's of Memory space.

Mp3's on the other hand are purely 'digital signals' but they are so constructed as to make usage of the "nuances" and aberration's of Human Hearing ~ In effect Mp3's literally "fool" the Ear into hearing thing that are simply not in the Music Data Stream but for all intents and purposes you do hear what's not there. An analogy would be a TV.Show Illusionist ~ who "fools" the eyes.

These Mp3 Files are highly compresses and use much less Memory and consequently are shorter in lenght.

c)

As a Computer has a finite digital computation speed and its "Time Frame" is a function of its data through-put, now the smaller Mp3 File compute's faster than its 'mirror-image' Wav File. However this difference can only be measured over a resonable time frame such as 4-10 minutes and if you compare both "Time Frames" there will be a difference.

d)

Having said that, the 'Physiological Hearing Time' remains the same as the origional Sound Track, because the Mp3 File is being dumped into Memory and is being 'read-out' in 'real-time' not in Digital frame time and because of those two differences you simply CANT replace Wave Files with Mp3 Files and expect the synchronisation to be as it was !

Hope this simply explains whats going on....

Brian.Conflow.

OOP's......

Apologies to all for the inadvertent duplication of Chas' Posting.

Brian.Conflow.

[JRR]

Charles:

We had a somewhat similar issue a few months ago which is outlined on the forum some place.

It turned out that when I converted the .wav to the MP3 I accidently used some weird options.

Make sure you use stereo, 44,100HZ, constant bit rate and 128kbps (or 96).

When I do that I have no problem going back and forth between .wav and .mp3.

I do all my initial testing and synching using the .wav file and once I am happy and have finished tweaking the show and the music, I then convert to MP3 and away I go.

[LumenLux]

I do all my initial testing and synching using the .wav file and once I am happy and have finished tweaking the show and the music, I then convert to MP3 and away I go.

Jim, is there an advantage to this? Just in editing the .wav vs editing the mp3? Or some advantage in using first the .wav in PTE?

[JPD]

because of those two differences you simply CANT replace Wave Files with Mp3 Files and expect the synchronisation to be as it was

I am sorry Brian, but what you say is wrong , really wrong, I always do like Chas and never had problem.

Before to answer, I made a test and replace a wave file of 3"12" by the mp3 file of the same sound.

I made all the mp3 files with Goldwave and I try at several frequencies :

48000, 44100, 32000, 24000, 20050, 16000, 12000, 11025 and 8000 hz at 128 Kbps stereo.

All these files run exactly for the same time with PTE. The sound of the last file was very bad but exactly of 3'12".

I also try the worst sound at 8000 hz 8 Kbps mono, the length was good.

So before to do an answer to a newbye, please be sure you know problems about the question.

I had the same problem once, it was with a file I had from the net, so I don't know with which tool it was made. There are sometime problems with sound (I have a file which is good on some PC and doesn't work on others), and often with WMA files, but these files are bad or protected.

PS I used Lame 3.96

I just can say to Chas to try to convert with another tools than those he used, and he will have a better result with Ogg . Please go there about ogg, wma and mp3 files.

PS It's a good method to work with wav file, so if you have to modify it, you don't lose anything, I do the same for picture, I first work with BMP. I change for ogg and jpg at the end and after have a look at the time line to correct the synchronization if necessary.

[JRR]

Jim, is there an advantage to this? Just in editing the .wav vs editing the mp3? Or some advantage in using first the .wav in PTE?

Bob:

To my mind there is an advantage, some would likely disagree with me.

.mp3 is a compressed file, just like .jpg is.

If you work on a jpg, saving it as you try different versions etc, overtime it loses quality. That is why we are taught to always work and save in .tif or .psd and convert to .jpg at the end. (obviously as PTE doesn't accept .tif or .psd I convert to .jpg for use in PTE but keep the uncompressed version until I am happy with the overall effect.

The same applies to .mp3. I learned this the hard way in some of my earlier shows.

[Conflow]

I am sorry Brian, but what you say is wrong , really wrong, I always do like Chas and never had problem.

Before to answer, I made a test and replace a wave file of 3"12" by the mp3 file of the same sound.

I made all the mp3 files with Goldwave and I try at several frequencies :

48000, 44100, 32000, 24000, 20050, 16000, 12000, 11025 and 8000 hz at 128 Kbps stereo.

All these files run exactly for the same time with PTE. The sound of the last file was very bad but exactly of 3'12".

I also try the worst sound at 8000 hz 8 Kbps mono, the length was good.

So before to do an answer to a newbye, please be sure you know problems about the question.

I had the same problem once, it was with a file I had from the net, so I don't know with which tool it was made. There are sometime problems with sound (I have a file which is good on some PC and doesn't work on others), and often with WMA files, but these files are bad or protected.

PS I used Lame 3.96

I just can say to Chas to try to convert with another tools than those he used, and he will have a better result with Ogg . Please go there about ogg, wma and mp3 files.

PS It's a good method to work with wav file, so if you have to modify it, you don't lose anything, I do the same for picture, I first work with BMP. I change for ogg and jpg at the end and after have a look at the time line to correct the synchronization if necessary.

Jean-Pierre,

It's a little 'unfair' of you to say that I am WRONG ~ really wrong ~ If you read my Post properly, I was at pains to give a "simple explaination" for the DIGITAL "TIMING-DIFFERENCES" between Wav Files & Mp3 Files of an origional Music Track. I also said that the "HEARING TIME" was identical in both Formats

CHAS had encountered a very simple problem in that he converted a Wav.File to an Mp3 File without consideration of the Bitrate ~ we have all done that !.

You offered no such explaination except to make assumptions and critise my Post without reading it properly.

Se la vie, for the Language differences.

Brian.Conflow.

[JPD]

Sorry Brian, I never said that all you said was wrong, I just said that what you say in your last sentence is wrong :

"because of those two differences you simply CANT replace Wave Files with Mp3 Files and expect the synchronisation to be as it was" .

I always think it's wrong. For the other part I never say it was wrong.

I spent an hour to test before answer, please test and you will agree with me.

You offered no such explaination

May be I don't give explaination, but I explain all the tests I did, the name of the tool and the version of the encoder and explain than ogg was better. I think that these informations are really interesting for a newbye on this forum.

And the link give more interesting informations about wma, mp3 and ogg, I also spent several hours to do these tests. I don't speak to much (difficult for me), I test and I give to everybody the result, that's all.

[Conflow]

Sorry Brian, I never said that all you said was wrong, I just said that what you say in your last sentence is wrong :

"because of those two differences you simply CANT replace Wave Files with Mp3 Files and expect the synchronisation to be as it was" .

I always think it's wrong. For the other part I never say it was wrong.

I spent an hour to test before answer, please test and you will agree with me.

May be I don't give explaination, but I explain all the tests I did, the name of the tool and the version of the encoder and explain than ogg was better. I think that these informations are really interesting for a newbye on this forum.

And the link give more interesting informations about wma, mp3 and ogg, I also spent several hours to do these tests. I don't speak to much (difficult for me), I test and I give to everybody the result, that's all.

Jean Pierre,

Yes I do understand, I also do 'Comparison Test' on 'Data Streams' (including Music) ~ the Files I work with are 'Data PWM' and 'Data PCM' in the audio range of 600.Hz ~ 10000.Hz for Electric Locomotive Power Controllers.

These 'Data Streams' are usually collected by Telog Data Loggers and then transfered to PC and then converted to WAV or Mp3 or RAW Formats for further analysis using Nero Wave Editor and a PTE Presentation so Engineers can see and hear what's going on.

This is a very unique use of PTE in an Industrial Application ~ I also use PTE to make 'Workshop-Manuals' and 'Training Manuals'

I can certainly say that after 30 years in this Industry I am no stranger to 'Audio Wave Technology' so when I Post to the Forum I am always aware that most New PTE Users simply 'Rip' a CDDA Music Track from a Music CD, convert that to a WAV File, and then convert that into an Mp3 and being aware that most 'New Users' would not have heard of, nor know, what 'Bit-Rate' is ~ and that makes the problem !

~The point I was making ~ you can't do that~

Now that we understand each other (despite the Language differences) let's get on and help other's to enjoy the PTE Program...

May I wish you and your's a 'Very Happy Easter'

Brian.Conflow.

[bmccammon]

I have operated on the belief that sound file formats are similar to image file formats. That is, that WAV format and MP3 formats are similar to TIFF and JPG image formats. WAV is uncompressed and does not lose quality with successive encoding. MP3 is a compressed format and would lose quality with repetitive encoding. I thought the safest way to build a PTE program was to use the sound format desired in the end product. For me, that is MP3. I build my shows using MP3 and adjust synchronization to meet my needs. I never worried about any change in sound length due to conversion to another sound format.

Brian... is my assumption that opening a PTE file many times to make adjustments will not degrade the MP3 file being used in the program? I can see how successive encoding of an MP3 file might degrade the quality but I don't see how working in PTE over several iterations would result in a sound quality loss. PTE isn't editing either the image files or the sound file... it is simply organizing them. Any thoughts? Thanks very much.

Bruce McCammon

[JPD]

~The point I was making ~ you can't do that~

I don't see why I would repeat what other (you) explain correctly and as you say I can't do that... in english, .... but in french, yes.

What you explained is interesting and I just spoke about one point where I don't agree with you. This is really where is the problem, your explaination is good and everybody can think that necessary the conclusion is right after so many good explainations.

But, as you say "let's get on and help other's to enjoy the PTE Program..."

Thanks for your wishes, have a happy Easter too

Bruce

opening a PTE file many times to make adjustments will not degrade the MP3 file being used in the program?

No, that will not degrade the mp3 file, no problem

[chas merry]

Hi,

Thanks for all the replies. I will try some experimenting of my own. I did not realise about using "stereo, 44,100HZ, constant bit rate and 128kbps (or 96)" etc.

I will try the above settings.

Again many thanks for your help.

Regards

CHAS

[Conflow]

CHAS

Many thanks for your acknowledgement reply ~ I had rather guessed that you were not familiar with 'Bitrates' etc,etc ~ Most 'New Users' have the same problem.

Like everything in Life we are always learning something new and may I take this oppurtunity to wish you success with the PTE Presentation and don't burn too-much midnight oil over the Holiday.

Have a Happy Easter,

Brian.Conflow.

[chas merry]

Hi,

Thanks to your help I have redone two shows. I am pleased with the results.

I have used "Audacity" to convert the wav files. However I can't find the setting for 128kbps.

I have used 44,100Hz and 32-bit float. Is 32-bit float "best quality" or should I be looking in another "menu" for the 128kbps setting.

I aplogise in advance if these are basic questions, but I am still learning the "Audio" side of the game.

Regards

CHAS

[JPD]

You have to install and select before lame_enc.dll, then you choice this file in the preferences menu of Audacity. After you choice the bitrate in list on the left of the windows (I don't know the english name of this option. It's "débit" in french)

[Conflow]

CHAS

Let me try and help Jean Pierre with his English ~ I wish my French was as good.

1)

Decide if you wish to use WAV Files or Mp3 Files in your Presentation ?

2)

Decide on a 'Bitrate' ~ 128Kbps is a good overall compromise.

3)

If you wish to use Mp3 Files you must download an Mp3 Encoder ~ Lame Mp3 Encoder is adequate, and this is best installed into the Audacity Folder.

4)

You can get this from www.free-codecs.com - When the Web Page opens,find the word DOWNLOAD (black print in grey stripe in middle of page) Click on the word Download and the download page will open up. Select the Lame 3.97 Version and download the Zip File into 'My Documents'.

5)

Now drag the Zip File into the 'Audacity Folder' and then "unzip" it within the Audacity Folder (simply double-click it and WinZip will unzip it) Make sure its being unzipped into the Audacity Folder.

6)

Re-start your PC and select the Audacity Program. Audacity will recognise the "unzipped-file" and ask your permission to use it.

7)

If you have any problems, contact me 'Off-Forum' with an ISP Broadband Address (not Hotmail or Free-Mail) and I shall send you a copy of the Lame Encoder as a Zip File.

Hope this helps....

Brian.Conflow.

conflow@eircom.net

[Ronniebootwest]

This is clearly a subject that has raised some hackles but there is no real need to get into all of the technicalities of this subject becaus JIM stated earlier on in this post that he always has success with his timings, when converting WAV to mp3. The moral here is simply, "The proof of the pudding.........etc" so can I suggest that taking Jim's advice might well be the simple answer.

Ron