Amazing beta V5

[d67]

Some posts concerning problems with PTE V5 are amazing : helicopter blades in movement, rolling ball, flying cubes, rotating flowers, pan and zoom as movie, etc....

The energy spread out to resolve such problems is really astonishing for a software dedicated to still photos !

I am not a specialist but to my knowledge there are yet many excellent video software.

Why reinventing what exists ?

We are very far from the initial spirit of PTE : a software created to restitute excellent photos, perfectly synchronised with sound and, first and last, very easy to master, even without any user manual.

Will the V5 be a gasworks ?

Most of the last slideshow productions are focusing on effects, abandonning more or less image quality !

Competition for who will show the smoothiest and greatest effects is hilarious.

I know present V5 is a beta/test version but when final version will be released I wonder if the slideshows will then return to the initial goal : showing very good images, a "story" or an atmosphere ... with effects and technology completely transparent, invisible.

[misterk]

Hi Patrick,

I agree whole heartedly with you, lets get back to AV and not Video

Ian

[ContaxMan]

Hi Patrick,

I agree whole heartedly with you, lets get back to AV and not Video

Ian

Me too. I realise that (some) people will want to experiment with the new features and that this may well be helpful to the developers but there has been a dearth of basic, sound AV discussion and examples here recently.

By the way, this is meant in no way to denigrate the incredible work that Igor & the rest of the team have put and are putting into developing version 5. But I've still to see anything that makes me wish to abandon the "conventional" approaches.

[Maureen]

At the end of the day there is no way animated effects will save a sequence from being weak if it doesn't have the image quality, perfect sound and interest values. They are all equally important to create a long term AV which people would want to see over again.

There will always be the fashion for the unusual, way out or gimmicks which quickly grab your attention. They will be fun the first time but will wear thin and never patch up something which is weak in actual all round production.

Abroad all is refered to as Diaporama, while we have the terms slide-show, slide/ sound, Photo Harmony and AV which all refer to different types of productions. The difficulty lies when excellent photographers who have never viewed the top quality AVs refer to their work as "AV" when they mean slideshow. This is not to imply that in some way the different categories are better than one another. There are some poor quality AVs and some stunning slide-shows!

So what's the difference ?……… a huge enormous one. I doubt if top class photographers would be happy to allow Aunty Flo's enprints to be hung in the National Portrait gallery and classed as "prints". (I am assuming Aunty Flo's enprint is not a top quality photograph here folks & apologies to "Aunty Flo" - no doubt she'll soon appear on our Forum and try to sell us Viagra and some classy prints !)

So slideshow workers (and that category does not mean the photography is poor !) want to put in a little animation. Girls just wanna have fun (as the song says) and boys like toys - but without being sexist, the reverse is also true for both these

I suppose this situation puts me in mind of some aspects of plastic surgery. So many now have their nips and tucks done and others feel this is very bad for the self image of the young and the end results can be " not very nice or natural looking " against what Nature intended, etc ……… however there is no way we should stop these surgeons from improving their techniques as the day comes along when their work is critical for someone very badly injured.

So serious AV workers don't think it is natural to have these new rotations, zooms and animations in quality AV sequences and I must hold my hand up and totally agree with them. However I also don't think it is a bad thing to be developing these new techniques in PTE. Why? Well I won't be using them in what I would term AV but I will be creating small introductory slide-shows to grab the audience attention when I do a talk or we produce a big competition.

So I am very grateful for all the time, effort and hard work some members are giving to this area of PTE. We all need to think "outside the box" now and again ……… and hopefully everyone will contine to enjoy creating their Diaporamas, slideshows, Photo Harmony and AVs with enjoyment and pride.

I know I very much enjoy viewing them all. Thanks to everyone for sharing their sequences, templates, developments, knowledge and views with us all here. Long may it continue in the good spirit of friendship.

PS I don't want to buy Viagra or see naughty ladies doing weird things here though

[alrobin]

Patrick,

You seem to be very free with your criticism, so I hope you'll forgive me for being free with my rebuttal.

Point by point, you said:

Some posts concerning problems with PTE V5 are amazing : helicopter blades in movement, rolling ball, flying cubes, rotating flowers, pan and zoom as movie, etc....

So far I agree with you.

The energy spread out to resolve such problems is really astonishing for a software dedicated to still photos !

I think most members would still agree.

I am not a specialist but to my knowledge there are yet many excellent video software.

Why reinventing what exists ?

You said you aren't a specialist, and this is quite obvious. The work being done by JP and Tom and Lin and Dom and Tomuk and others in no way reinvents any video software - I'm not an expert either, but I have yet to see any video software that can replicate what is being accomplished with PTE.

We are very far from the initial spirit of PTE : a software created to restitute excellent photos, perfectly synchronised with sound and, first and last, very easy to master, even without any user manual.

Since when did you become the authority on the purpose for PTE? This is Igor's program, and only he can tell us what this purpose is. The fact that he has been so receptive to most of us in our "demands" is a credit to his generosity and good will!

Will the V5 be a gasworks ?

Please explain.

Most of the last slideshow productions are focusing on effects, abandonning more or less image quality !

Do you have some statistics to back this up? The demos and tutorials can hardly be classified as "slideshow productions".

Competition for who will show the smoothiest and greatest effects is hilarious.

I'm glad you are enjoying it too. Myself, I can hardly wait each day for more fantastic special effects - most of which are simply brilliant.

I know present V5 is a beta/test version but when final version will be released I wonder if the slideshows will then return to the initial goal : showing very good images, a "story" or an atmosphere ... with effects and technology completely transparent, invisible.

Patrick,

Have a little faith in humanity! And open your mind to the belief that any progress in any direction with PTE will ultimately be used for more effective AV creations in the hands of experienced producers. People like Stephane and Maureen and Johan and Ian, (and the list goes on), will, I'm sure, eventually find some application for each one of the new "special effects" being experimented with.

I don't mean that there will be flying cubes and ellipses in their shows. Far from it. These same effects that you are criticizing will ultimately be judiciously used by these experts in setting a mood or producing a smoother, more-controlled background movement that will astonish and "move" the viewers.

Don't be disheartened by the current flurry of demos and flying objects - this activity is absolutely necessary in order to research PTE's new ingenious features and determine their limitations, capabilities, and in the end, their potential applications. This is the time to help Igor in working out the minor "bugs", and suggest improvements in how these new features are made to work.

We have always touted PTE's versatility and the fact that it has possibilities for everyone. Let's not be narrow-minded at this stage and deny a good number of users some capabilities which they feel will be important in their own particular applications.

This is not the time to be putting down the current developments in PTE, but rather to be supporting and encouraging Igor in his attempts to make PTE a more attractive and desirable product for whoever wishes to use it.

[ronwil]

I think Maureen has written a well worded piece on this subject, with which I agree. It is important that members of the forum help to develop the software as they are doing and for others to choose how and when to use those developments for their own particular preferences. Presentation is very important to me and, like Maureen, I will use them in my introductory sequences and the occasional zoom and pan within a sequence. Don't worry Patrick, look at the time when the extra number of effects were introduced, we don't see many now with them being widely used, but thanks you were right to air your concerns

I call my sequences "Images with Sound". I ate my words yesterday at a show I was giving, my Windows Media Player decided to object and I showed my sequences in dead silence apart from the occasional cough, ripple of laughter and sympathetic applause. The fan heaters did switch on at one point when water was cascading down in a sequence and I thought the sound had sparked into life. When I got home I used System Restore and all is apparently well again.

Ron [uK]

[Maureen]

What a nightmare Ron!

We once had an evening showing slide/ tape AVs when the tape side gave up the ghost.

Thankfully the hall had a PA system and someone had to go in a cupboard and insert the tape and then Robert quickly did the entire slide pulsing by hand......

but of course we can't strip the parts out in digital show!

I've also had the experience of losing some colour on one occasion due to one single pin in the lead between the projector and laptop being bent. I am very grateful for help packing up but it is so easy if you are inexperienced to pull out the lead and bend the pin. Someone up there likes me as that time I had a brand new shorter lead in my bag so in the second part all colour casts had gone.

Also useful to note how some of the brand new super projectors have such sensitivity that they can project badly if the lead is too long or there are other electronics running nearby - I'm thinking particularly when using a Mac laptop too (more sensitive) which picked up this problem.

Hope they invite you back to hear the sound or at least practise your singing in case it happens again

I forgot to say a big Thank You to Igor and the Moderators who do an incredible job of keeping this site well cleared of lots of spam and rubbish postings we get, usually in the early hours of the morning. So most people are not even aware of how much the site is sometimes targeted.

[alrobin]

So serious AV workers don't think it is natural to have these new rotations, zooms and animations in quality AV sequences and I must hold my hand up and totally agree with them.

Maureen,

I enjoyed reading your rebuttal to Patrick's statements - you certainly have a way with words! I enjoyed the interjections of humour, too - helps to keep the discussion on a level plane and bring us down to earth (hope this isn't a 'mixed metaphor'. If it is, it can be excused since I'm part Irish! )

I do, however, object to this statement (above), and I'm sure you must not have meant it this way. I think Stephane Bidouze would also disagree with it, and I think you would agree, too, that some of the best AV's have been ones which have utilized subtle effects such as panning, zooming, rotating, etc., in helping to create a mood or add motion to an otherwise less-interesting production.

For example, one feature that is new to PTE, and is used in "these new ... animations", is the ability to control the opacity of an object - this will be very useful in merging objects with the background in creating the montages which are so popular in the better "AV's" entered into competitions such as the SuperCircuit and RPS International, etc.

This is turning out to be a good debate - thanks, Patrick, for starting it! Maybe when it's all over, we will have cleared the air a bit.

[Lin Evans]

Some posts concerning problems with PTE V5 are amazing : helicopter blades in movement, rolling ball, flying cubes, rotating flowers, pan and zoom as movie, etc....

The energy spread out to resolve such problems is really astonishing for a software dedicated to still photos !

I am not a specialist but to my knowledge there are yet many excellent video software.

Why reinventing what exists ?

We are very far from the initial spirit of PTE : a software created to restitute excellent photos, perfectly synchronised with sound and, first and last, very easy to master, even without any user manual.

Will the V5 be a gasworks ?

Most of the last slideshow productions are focusing on effects, abandonning more or less image quality !

Competition for who will show the smoothiest and greatest effects is hilarious.

I know present V5 is a beta/test version but when final version will be released I wonder if the slideshows will then return to the initial goal : showing very good images, a "story" or an atmosphere ... with effects and technology completely transparent, invisible.

Hi Patrick,

PTE is a tool. How one uses a tool depends primarily on their purpose and final goal. Think of it in a similar way to the way you might think of an automobile. What is the true purpose of an automobile? Most would agree that it's a convenient and relatively comfortable way to travel from place to place. So why do we "need" or want a Rolls Royce when a Citroen 2CV will perform the same essential service? Even why do we want an automobile at all when we could use a horse drawn wagon? We can agree that they are all ways and means to transport people over distances quicker and with more comfort than walking.

So why do we have automobile racing and why a Ferrari when a Corvette can equal the top speed, exceed the acceleration and costs a fraction as much? The answers are actually quite varied and complex. We race for "sport," to improve the handling, safety and progress in automotive engineering to be able to build better engines which last longer, etc. We have automobiles which appeal to many and varied tastes and which can fit many and varied budgets. So perhaps it is with a tool like PTE.

As it is in version 4.48, PTE performs beautifully offering the very highest image quality and perfectly synchronized sound with smooth and varied transitions so why even bother with version 5 with all it's power and myriad features? The answer I believe is for the same reason that we have multiple choices in other tools. Not everyone wants pan, zoom, rotate, and scroll. Not everyone likes "movies" and of course not everyone likes stills. To be successful as a software developer and producer one must give their market the tools that they ask for. The world market for slideshow tools has evolved and people ask for these features. The "competition" has them and now so does PTE. What one makes of them and how and why they might use them is academic. They are there if the need or desire to use them arises. Just because one's Corvette can exceed 200 mph doesn't mean it will ever actually be driven that fast, but it's somehow comforting to have the assurance that should the need arise or you choose to do so the vehicle can perform and has been tested to be reliable under those extremes.

PicturesToExe can still produce the finest images of any available tool. It still has the smoothest transitions and can now give those who choose to use them the powers to jump through hoops.It's human nature to explore the limits and test the tools. Would you want to trust your life to a surgeon who had not extensively "practiced" in the gross anatomy lab on cadavers before removing your appendix? LOL. Consider the myriad interest in spinning helicopter rotors, rolling balls, dancing cubes, turning pages and such as homework which helps hone the skills of the practitioner so that when they create a masterful diaporama or slideshow or AV presentation, they will be able to incorporate what they need in a seamless and primarily invisible manner to provide a moving experience for the observer. The techniques and practice are not an end to themselves but rather a prelude for the symphony to come.

Best regards,

Lin

[d67]

Sorry if I don't reply point to point as Alrobin did : I find it useless, time consuming, will be endless and I am also far from understanding the subtleties of all the replies, are they given with or without humour.

I have strictly nothing to add to my initial post and will not, in any way, justify each of my words !!!

I do not wish to polemize, especially in a language which I do not master very well !

Just 2 facts :

- for the moment there is only an incomplete beta version available and the release of the finished stable V5 is as imminent as it was told us many times before since one year and a half !

- because of the difficulties to bring alive a finished V5, PTE V4 didn't see any improvement or corrections since march 2006. By chance, the product is a good one and problems can be circumvented without too much difficulties.

Have a good day

Patrick

[Maureen]

Hi Al

Think my posting may have given the impression "you should never " or "I will never ".......

and then of course never say never because the next thing you know you need to do it !

The best sequences and overall winners across the world in last year's 321 competition were two brilliant AVs which did show movement/ animation! So I eat my humble pie and stand corrected in the corner with my dunce's hat on and offer my most sincere apologies to those outstanding AV workers, slideshow producers, diaporamists, who as you say have already produced some really excellent work which we are all happy to view again and again. List of names too long to mention & I'm too tactful as I'd forget some one!

Now I must get my shoulder to the wheel, take my foot out of my mouth, put my money where my mouth is and get away and finish something to show others I can produce sequences and not just type words ....

LOL

Hope you all have fun discussing this on going topic .......

just keep it friendly and your mind open...

you may even catch a draught ......

and a whiff of progress

.......... if only to agree to disagree !

[ksf]

One of the best features of PTE is actually this forum.

Without it we would all just be anonymous users of a software product with all the features dictated to us by the authors. At least through the forum we have the opportunity to request enhancements, and Igor, through his obvious commitment, continues to provide the best possible product for us to use.

Having said that, just because we have a full toolbox doesn't mean we have to use every tool. I see it a bit like when Cokin filters first became popular, we all had them and we all used them far too much (remember those graduated tobacco skies - yuk!). Things will settle down and the importance of good photography, good sound, and all the other factors that go into making a good production will still be key requirements.

Igor lets us have beta versions so that he has as wide a testbed as possible for proving and improving PTE. At the same time we all get the benefit of having new toys to play with and as others have hinted at in this thread that is what they are - toys. There is no pressure on us to use them and there is nothing to say that an animated sequence will be viewed any more or less favourably in competition as a non-animated AV. At the end of the day it will be how the animation has helped to enhance the sequence and the overall message rather than being used just because the feature is available or just to show how smart the author is.

I agree that some of the examples will probably never be used in a serious AV but we all need to have a bit of fun now and again.

What the various cubes, rolling balls, helicopter blades etc do show is the power of v5 and the fact that people are experimenting with such effects is just a further extension of testing the capabilities and determining the boundaries of PTE.

My only concern is that people may start to cut and paste the tutorials into their own sequences and pass them of as their own work rather than learning how to do it for themselves.

[jevans]

Thank you all for a most interesting thread. I initially had views rather similar to Maureen about the use of movement effects in AV shows. We have discussed this many times in my photographic club and have tended to the view that many of the animation possibilities were to "video like" for us to want to use.

Fortunately I resisted the temptation to rush some supporting comments into this thread as I was then able to read Al and Lin's measured and very useful response which started to make me think along different tracks. This is a great forum where views such as these can be aired with such good humour and common sense. Keep the contributions coming!

Jeff

[dadou]

"d67" The best thing is to explain it with an example. So I hope a work yours with PTE to see what you want.

Very easy to find ....See his webspace below his message .

If you go to Cottage, you will find many D67 slideshows and tutorials .... I know, you are a new user, but you can see around before speaking ...

Sorry for my poor english !!!!

Patrick esta muy conocido desde años aqui ; ha producido mucho y esta pensando, como muchos que se callan , que las animaciones quitan una de las caracteristicas de nuestra aficion : la succession de imagenes fijas.

Estas pueden ser utiles para titulos , unas transiciones de cuando en cuando, pero no ser la base de un diaporama ... y es lo que muchos tememos mucho !!!

Desearia que mi castellano fuese mejor que mi ingles !!!

PS: su ultimo Teide me gusta mas que el anterior ...

[Ken Cox]

for all of Patrick's B___S___ , he is actually a very respected artist

tis best to ignore his smart A__ remarks

i get a real rush when watching his stuff made on an old piece from the last century - he has made me very Jealous

ken

[d67]

i get a real rush when watching his stuff made on an old piece from the last century...

Hi Ken

This subtlety is a clear one for me

I know I have to change one day my antiquity

[morasoft]

Sorry d67, by my comments. I had deleted my reply.

But. In my classroom I will do a slideshow seemed to bugs bunny, Marvin.... (the students are 6-7 years olds). This enjoy them. But, If I want to do a wedding report, I never will do so. Each time have his moment and his slideshow type.

Excuse my english

[Peter S]

I took the time to look at Patricks web site and found some great pictures there. I couldn't help but smile when I noticed that his D67 pictures are all about helicopters. but not a single rotating blade.

Some of the more complex sequences may not be very aesthetically pleasing or artistic but they point the way to the huge number of possibilities with PTE. I have enjoyed watching the experts stretch the boundaries and I have learned a great deal from their shows, tutorials and postings on the forum. I have enjoyed producing "straight forward" AV sequences with earlier versions but v5 opens up completely new opportunities. Some of the things I want to do with it do not even involve photographs at all! I shall however continue to get out in the countryside, add far to many images to my hard drive and make more AVs with very few effects as well as having fun with PZR.

Those who do not wish to use the additional features of v5 do not have to, but that does not stop them from asking Igor to add to v5 the features that they would have liked to see included in an update of 4.8. So everyone ends up a winner.

Peter

[mhwarner]

While I lurk here every day, I haven't had the time yet to play extensively with V5 beta myself. However, I thoroughly enjoy the demos, templates and tutorials of others that have been posted. Yes, the effects are amazing and it is interesting to see the subtle "one upmanship" (fun compettion more than anything) of the ever better and more amazing effects being developed and displayed by forum participants

I really do not think that I am ever likely to be using rotating helicopter blades, bouncing cubes, etc. in any of the horseback riding "slideshows" which I sell. But I can definitely see that all this experimentation will lead to some top notch effects that I might use in my title slides or in more elegant transitions or in the so-called "picture in picture" effect that Barry Beckham and others have perfected in earlier versions of P2E. I will welcome the chance to use the occasional pan/zoom effect for emphasis on certain slides, and I am really looking forward to incorporating Dom's filmstrip templates and possibly JPD and Dom's versions of the photo album template into some of my own travel shows.

The point I am trying to make, I guess, is that while many of us are unlikely to use all of these effects all the time, when we have a need or wish to use one of them in some part of a slideshow, it will be good to know that the effect will work well because all possibilities have been tested and debugged by knowledgeable users of this forum before the software is released in its final form.

And I guess I might also wish to ask Patrick why, if he is already happy with the standard slideshow effects available in v 4.48, he is so concerned about the somewhat "delayed" release of version 5 (although we were never really promised a final date). I am curious as to what features you are expecting in version 5 -- not related to all of the animation stuff -- that will help you in making standard slideshows. Not being a smartass here, just trying to educate myself. I can think of things like the new objects editor (even without using animation), DVD creation functionality, perhaps the ability to use transparent .png files and maybe the ability to create a "template" as a zip file that will be wonderful additions. While I know there are other places in this forum that these bits and pieces of information can be found, maybe what I am asking for (and not necessarily from Patrick since he seems not to want to respond further) is a recap of the other new features we will be getting in v 5 when it is released.

[Barry Beckham]

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I have seen quite a few SERIOUS AV's and most of those would not tempt me in out of the rain.

BB

[Ronniebootwest]

For heavens sake, what is going on now?

I remember saying, before even beta 1 was released, that I was a little concerned that the 'bells and whistles' of version 5 would detract from the quality of PTE slide shows - with hindsight, I was right to be concerned because good old version 4.48 has taken a back seat (only for a while though I think).

I have enjoyed playing with version 5 but can only really see a couple of its functions being used in our slide shows this time next year. The novelty will wear off and we will return to producing the high quality shows that we all remember.

Pans and zooms will be widely used but I doubt that all the fancy (and excellent) demos that we are currently seeing will take hold, mainly because they are just to difficult to achieve by the 'ordinary' user.

Poor old Patrick is taking some stick over his original remarks but I can see the point he is trying to make and agree with a lot of what he said.

LEAVE HIM ALONE and lets all get back to producing good quality slide shows!

Ron West

[Lin Evans]

.....Patrick since he seems not to want to respond further) is a recap of the other new features we will be getting in v 5 when it is released.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We must keep in mind that English is not Patrick's native language and it is much more difficult for him and other non-native speakers to respond to these issues than to state their opinions initially. I could only imagine myself trying to respond to a conversation being carried out in French or Russian, etc.

I don't think his reluctance to justify his opinions is motivated by simply not wanting to discuss these issues, but rather that it's a lot of extra work to make his points in a foreign language.

There is always a difference of opinion about what constitutes excellence in AV presentations. Some love the video environment while others prefer stills and ultra image quality. There is certainly a place for each.

I'm often reminded of some of my friends who love classical music and find my love of American Blusgrass somwhat crass. I have many, many years of musical training and study - I play numerous musical instruments and have studied all types of music but I "prefer" Bluegrass. It's not because of a lack of education or lack of knowledge (I'm as well educated as any of my peers) that directs my preferences, it's simply what I "like".

It's this way with video versus stills. I'm a photographer by profession these days and I appreciate both stills and video effects. They each have a place with my various clients. Some are very impressed with pure image quality and could care less about transitions, music, PZR, etc., while others (just as highly educated and just as intelligent) dearly love the video effects.

PTE acts as a bridge between these two worlds. It offers the best of each and the user has complete control over which effects to use or ignore. It can simulate video, allow amazing animations or it can produce superior stills with or without specialized transitions, etc.

We should realize that those who want to pursue it as a tool for creative animations have every right to do so as well as those who see it as a tool for professional still presentations. It's just a tool folks, not a religion....

Best regards,

Lin

[alrobin]

Sorry if I don't reply point to point as Alrobin did : I find it useless, time consuming, will be endless .........snip..............

Spoil-sport! And here the discussion was just starting to warm up!! Oh, well, I'm sure there will be another time! Watch out for those helicopters!!

[d67]

.....Patrick since he seems not to want to respond further) is a recap of the other new features we will be getting in v 5 when it is released.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We must keep in mind that English is not Patrick's native language and it is much more difficult for him and other non-native speakers to respond to these issues than to state their opinions initially. I could only imagine myself trying to respond to a conversation being carried out in French or Russian, etc.

Lin, that's it !

Writing a few words takes a lot of time as I have to verify each of them.

That's also why I have to make it short ... and of necessity abrupt or without shade of meaning.

Now, replying to all the posts is truly impossible !!!!

Difficulty is increased when some of you reply with jokes I am totally unable to understand : are they friendly ? hostile ? agressive ?

For example :

Poor old Patrick is taking some stick over his original remarks but I can see the point he is trying to make and agree with a lot of what he said.

In first approximation I find this remark truly deprecating for me. I am unsure and if I reply abruptly I will perhaps do a mistake.

Now imagine I have to shell (husk ?) all the posts !!!!!!!!!!

For those who have difficulties to write english it is best to hush .... particularly if you have each time to read some very epidermic replies, when not patronizing.

roughly estimated time to write this post : 30 min

[alrobin]

Too bad we can't all meet together in a pub somewhere!