mp3 license ?

[boxig]

Hi,

MP3 license is not clear to me.

Here is a quote from Thompson web site's FAQ:

ttp://www.mp3licensing.com/help/index.html

However, no license is needed for private, non-commercial activities (e.g., home-entertainment, receiving broadcasts and creating a personal music library), not generating revenue or other consideration of any kind or for entities with associated annual gross revenue less than US$ 100 000.00.

What does this last sentence exactly means ?

If I sale slideshows made with PTE and my annual revenue is less than $100,000, do I still need a license ?

Thank you

boxig

[alrobin]

Granot,

Good to have you back with us.

You must have mis-spelled the URL for the link. It should be:

http://www.mp3licensing.com/help/index.html

This would indeed be great news, but it's different from my understanding of the situation - unless the courts have established something new in the last few months. I know the wedding photo industry has been lobbying to have more realistic rules put into play. I believe that the license referred to in the referenced FAQ is for mp3 technology, not the use of mp3 music, itself.

[Peter S]

Al, Boxig

The full text from the link says:

"5) Do I need a license to distribute mp3, mp3PRO or mp3surround encoded content?

Yes. A license is needed for commercial (i.e., revenue-generating) use of mp3/mp3PRO in broadcast systems (terrestrial, satellite, cable and/or other distribution channels), streaming applications (via Internet, intranets and/or other networks), other content distribution systems (pay-audio or audio-on-demand applications and the like) or for use of mp3/mp3PRO on physical media (compact discs, digital versatile discs, semiconductor chips, hard drives, memory cards and the like).

However, no license is needed for private, non-commercial activities (e.g., home-entertainment, receiving broadcasts and creating a personal music library), not generating revenue or other consideration of any kind or for entities with associated annual gross revenue less than US$ 100 000.00.

Surely this makes it clear that for anyone with a revenue less than $100,000 no license is required as far as the mp3 encoding is concerned? So if you use royalty free music you do not need any license from either party. If you sell something using music that is not royalty free you will have to pay the royalty to the "owner" regardless of the format that you use in your product. However if your gross revenue is lower than $100,000 you will still not need to pay any fee for the encoding.

Peter

[Guest Techman1]

Granot,

Hello and as Al says, it's good to see you back again!

As I understand the law regarding this, if it is for commercial use (you indicated that you are selling slideshows, so that would be commercial), you are not allowed to do this without a copyright release of some type or using royalty free music. Again, that is my understanding regarding commercial sales.

"non-commercial activities"

Regards,

Fred

[boxig]

Hi Al, Peter and Fred

Since I am using royalty free music and will not reach a revenue of $100,000

(sorry for that) I understand I will be needing no license.

I will be glad to hear any new information anybody has about this issue.

Thank you all and Happy Thai new year

Granot

[alrobin]

Since I am using royalty free music and will not reach a revenue of $100,000

(sorry for that) I understand I will be needing no license.

Granot,

I don't think this is the correct interpretation. The way I understand this is that if you are distributing mp3 music using Thompson software and/or equipment, and your sales are under $100,000, you won't have to pay license fees for using the encoding facilities. You still have to respect the copyright laws regarding use of the music itself.

[Conflow]

Hi Granot,

Great to hear from you again and here is my contribution re:- Mp3.

Al's interpretation, understanding and advice to you is absolutely correct for the USA and Canada.

I was in the Commercial Music Business for some 15 years. Within the past 4 years the subject of Copyright and Media Licencing has been much modified for the reasons that the U.S Music Industry were starting to write their own 'Rules' to the extent of flouting the Laws of many Countries who were co-signatories to the 'Berne Convention' and the 'UCC Convention' and the 'International Copyright Convention'. But in America these Media Mogul's were taking the Law into their own hands and 'stamping' on International Consumers Rights particularily within the E.C. This all blew up when Sony started to use 'Root-Kits' in their CD-Discs, now enough was enough. We Europeans outlawed this and returned nearly 10 million Discs to them. Warner Bros got the message !

1)

As things now stand in Europe we can record 60 seconds of any Music/Speech/Theatrical/Works for your own personal usage and even compile that into your own Work provided that is distributed 'Free-of-Charge' but with acknowledgements to the 'Copyright Holders' of those origional works. (The USA Media Industry allows 30 seconds) The 'Berne and UCC Conventions' allow 60 seconds without breaching Copyright.

2)

You can not copy/record ANY WORKS for Sale nor Distribution where you are in receipt of a monetary gain for such copies without having a 'Mechanical Copyright Licence'. (Berne & UCC Conventions)

3)

You can not render ANY PUBLIC PERFORMANCE of ANY MEDIA WORKS not of your own creation without

holding a 'Performance Copyright Licence' (Applies to Public Venues,Forums,Hotels,Ships,Trains,Planes etc).

In your case that Licence would not exceed $20 ~ $50 per year if you were giving Public Slide Shows.

4)

Methods of Recording and Rendition. If its a case where you are using a 'Patented Process' as Mp3 or WMA,Real Audio or Quicktime (for examples) then a Product Licence is required to use that technology for Commercial Recording purposes. But for Playback Units you pay for an OEM Licence within the purchase price of the System. In your case an Mp3 Recording Licence would be $20 ~$80. Mp3PRO (German) approx $100.

Russia and China and others are NOT co-signatories to the International Copyright Convention(s)

Finally, it all boils down to Recording ~ Playback ~ Method........ And if this is for Private or Public usage.

Hope this helps,

Brian.Conflow.

[boxig]

Brian

Thanks a lot for the info.

My MP3 are actually made by me and recorded by me (original files).

So I understand I have to pay nothing to nobody. Am I right ?

Thank you

Granot

[Conflow]

Brian

Thanks a lot for the info.

My MP3 are actually made by me and recorded by me (original files).

So I understand I have to pay nothing to nobody. Am I right ?

Thank you

Granot

Granot,

If you are using the Mp3 Process (Patented Process) to make products For Sale then technically you are a Commercial User and as such you really need a Licence to stay on the right side of International Patent Law.

If you make enquiries with Lame or Fraundorfer they will give you a Small Business Licence for very little.

If you 'Advertise' within your product that it was made with Lame or Fraundorfer or Nero in all probability they

will give you a small General Use Licence for nothing. Also there is a free "Open-Source" Mp3 Encoder but you must Register to use it.

Most of these people respect the honestly of Registered Users where others simply "pirate" the use of the Product ~ I don't need to tell you about that, so the same general rule applies here....

Brian.Conflow.

[boxig]

Brian

I recorded my mp3 using "Audacity" program. I am ignorant about "Encoder".

Which license exactly I have to ask for ? Do you have the url ?

Thank you

Granot

[Guest Techman1]

Granot,

Audacity uses the LAME encoder for creating MP3's. I don't have the licensing info URL, so hopefully Brian or someone else will chime in with that info. You can probably go to the Audacity website to find the LAME info and link there.

Take care!

Fred

[Peter S]

Brian,

I do not understand what role Thomson play in this discussion but Al provided this link to their site:

http://www.mp3licensing.com/help/index.html

They state "However, no license is needed for private, non-commercial activities (e.g., home-entertainment, receiving broadcasts and creating a personal music library), not generating revenue or other consideration of any kind or for entities with associated annual gross revenue less than US$ 100 000.00." The underlining is mine.

Are you saying that this advice does not apply in Europe and is only relevant to the US?

Granot,

If you are using the Mp3 Process (Patented Process) to make products For Sale then technically you are a Commercial User and as such you really need a Licence to stay on the right side of International Patent Law.

If you make enquiries with Lame or Fraundorfer they will give you a Small Business Licence for very little.

If you 'Advertise' within your product that it was made with Lame or Fraundorfer or Nero in all probability they

will give you a small General Use Licence for nothing. Also there is a free "Open-Source" Mp3 Encoder but you must Register to use it.

Most of these people respect the honestly of Registered Users where others simply "pirate" the use of the Product ~ I don't need to tell you about that, so the same general rule applies here....

Brian.Conflow.

I have a selection of MedwynGoodall's copyright free CDs which specifically give the buyer permission to use the music to form soundtracks for CD, DVD, slide shows...... in the public and private domain. So it is only the mp3 issue that would cause ma any concern.

Peter

[alrobin]

They state "However, no license is needed for private, non-commercial activities (e.g., home-entertainment, receiving broadcasts and creating a personal music library), not generating revenue or other consideration of any kind or for entities with associated annual gross revenue less than US$ 100 000.00." The underlining is mine.

Peter,

You're taking this out of context. Read the whole FAQ, particularly the part above the section you quoted. It's pertaining to the use of mp3 codecs, not the general use of copyrighted mp3 music, per se.

[Peter S]

Peter,

You're taking this out of context. Read the whole FAQ, particularly the part above the section you quoted. It's pertaining to the use of mp3 codecs, not the general use of copyrighted mp3 music, per se.

Al,

I don't think I am taking it out of context but my interpretation may be incorrect!

The whole FAQ says:

5) Do I need a license to distribute mp3, mp3PRO or mp3surround encoded content?

Yes. A license is needed for commercial (i.e., revenue-generating) use of mp3/mp3PRO in broadcast systems (terrestrial, satellite, cable and/or other distribution channels), streaming applications (via Internet, intranets and/or other networks), other content distribution systems (pay-audio or audio-on-demand applications and the like) or for use of mp3/mp3PRO on physical media (compact discs, digital versatile discs, semiconductor chips, hard drives, memory cards and the like).

However, no license is needed for private, non-commercial activities (e.g., home-entertainment, receiving broadcasts and creating a personal music library), not generating revenue or other consideration of any kind or for entities with associated annual gross revenue less than US$ 100 000.00.

So I conclude I do NOT need any license for the distribution of mp3 coded content if my revenue is less than $100,000.

If I wanted to distribute music copied from a normal purchased CD I would need to pay royalties to the Copyright holder of the original works as Brian stated. If I use COPYRIGHT FREE music I do NOT need to pay the Copyright holder because he has given me permission to use his material that I have already purchased from him.

I agree there are TWO separate issues here but if the statement in the FAQ from Thomson is correct and applies in Europe my conclusion is that I can distribute any COPYRIGHT FREE music in mp3 format as part of a slide show (but not other commercially available music) without any other license.

Peter

[Conflow]

(Open this to Full Screen)

Granot,Peter,Al

Granot ~ Mp3 Technology is vast and I can't go in-depth discussions here as it's basically "Off-Topic" ~ but here is a little background on the Audio Codec section of Mp3.

1)

The design of Mp3 went through various design phases between 1991~1995 as Mpeg/Layer1/Layer2/Layer3.The current development is Mpeg 3.97 available as an "Open-Source European Program" available from www.soundforge.net (This is a Free Codec) and can be imported into "Audacity" another Open-Source Program. ALL LAYERS of Mp3 are forward and backward compatible with each other. LAME is now also Free.

2)

The Worlds largest Technical Institute is the 'Fraunhofer Institute' of Germany (+12,000 Members) and in 1991 the European Union funded a Eureka Project to develop a 'Sound-Compression Program' which would reduce the size of WAV Files to a tenth of the origional size. This was a vital component in DAB Radio (Digital-Audio-Radio) and now Digital-Television and I-Pods and I-Tunes and Mobile Phones and now Bluetooth. Large European companies got involved in this and in 1995 the Fraunhofer Institute pulled all these factions together and then 'post-developed' what you now know today as Mp3.

3)

'Fraunhofer' patented the Mp3.PRO Encoder/Decoder on behalf of the participants and Licenced Thomson.CSF (a French Corporation) to distribute this to Manufacturers and Software Developers Worldwide. The Mp3.PRO Program contains all the basic 'source-codes' for a Developer or Manufacturer to make his own Mp3 Encoder ALL of which are compatible but each with differences depending on the quality wanted.

4)

Microsoft refused to purchase a Licence and went on to develop WMA Sound, a type of Mp3. (Non-Compatible)

5)

THE PATENT and the LICENCE only applies to Mp3.PRO (The Core-Program) ~ This if you wish to develop a Copy for your own use ~otherwise~ use Audacity with Lame V3.97. But be aware this will NOT work with RAW Audio inputs NOR with PCM Audio inputs. It only works converting WAV to Mp3 and visa-versa.

Brian.Conflow.

[alrobin]

I don't think I am taking it out of context but my interpretation may be incorrect!

The whole FAQ says:

5) Do I need a license to distribute mp3, mp3PRO or mp3surround encoded content?

Yes. A license is needed for commercial (i.e., revenue-generating) use of mp3/mp3PRO in broadcast systems (terrestrial, satellite, cable and/or other distribution channels), streaming applications (via Internet, intranets and/or other networks), other content distribution systems (pay-audio or audio-on-demand applications and the like) or for use of mp3/mp3PRO on physical media (compact discs, digital versatile discs, semiconductor chips, hard drives, memory cards and the like).

However, no license is needed for private, non-commercial activities (e.g., home-entertainment, receiving broadcasts and creating a personal music library), not generating revenue or other consideration of any kind or for entities with associated annual gross revenue less than US$ 100 000.00.

So I conclude I do NOT need any license for the distribution of mp3 coded content if my revenue is less than $100,000.

Peter,

I agree with your interpretation as long as you add "FOR COPYRIGHT FREE MUSIC". I had understood you to mean any music, whether copyright protected or not.

[boxig]

Thank you all for the info. Let's see if I got it right.

My original files were recorded with "Audacity" and saved as WAV. Than I used "Audacity" to convert those WAV to MP3. "Audacity" uses the free Lam encoder to do this conversion. This means my MP3 files need no license.

Now I want to use those MP3 with a PTE show. Does the final PTE show need a license ? - in other words, does it matter which program I use to let end user play the files or does it depends only on the files themselves ?

Thank you

Granot

[Conflow]

Thank you all for the info. Let's see if I got it right.

My original files were recorded with "Audacity" and saved as WAV. Than I used "Audacity" to convert those WAV to MP3. "Audacity" uses the free Lam encoder to do this conversion. This means my MP3 files need no license.

Now I want to use those MP3 with a PTE show. Does the final PTE show need a license ? - in other words, does it matter which program I use to let end user play the files or does it depends only on the files themselves ?

Thank you

Granot

Granot,

1)

If you "personally" Composed the Music, and Wrote the Music and Play the Music (3 Things) ~ Then its your property. But if you re-composed another persons Lyrics or Music and then got someone to Play that Music ~ then you have a few problems.

2)

If this "property" is yours in its entirety I would protect it by Copyright before I put it on ANY Playable Media.

3)

This is easy to do, you need the following:- The origional 'Musical Score Sheet' and the origional 'Lyrics Sheet' (if any) and the origional 'Sound Track' on a non-perishable medium usually a Master Tape. All of these must be signed and dated by you, placed in a strong Envelope ~ Made fully sealed~ and then Addressed to you with your sender name on the back. This will never be opened except by a Court.

Go to your Post Office and get the Envelope CLEARLY DATE STAMPED and then sent by REGISTERED POST to yourself. Make sure you have a Copy for personal usage, NEVER open the origional and keep the Post-Office receipt in a secure place. When received put the origional in a Bank or a secure place.

4)

This establishes whats termed a "Priority Date" which can't be broken and the contents establish the Copyright.

Yes,certainly use Audacity and the latest 'Lame Encoder 3.97' ~ This must be used as its the only one that's 'Open Source' (Available from:- www.soundforge.net)

Hope this helps...

Brian.Conflow.

[boxig]

Brian,

Your "Copyright" instructions are very useful and thank you for that. I will certainly do your suggestion.

Yes, I wrote the so called "music" and I downloaded "Lame Encoder 3.97". It works great !

Is there something similar to convert WAV to small size OGG files ?

I understood a license is needed for Decoder too. Can you give some info how it works and if there is a free decoder (sorry for my ignorance).

Thank you

Granot

[Conflow]

Brian,

Your "Copyright" instructions are very useful and thank you for that. I will certainly do your suggestion.

Yes, I wrote the so called "music" and I downloaded "Lame Encoder 3.97" to use with "Audacity". Where should I put the files "lame.exe" , "lame_enc.dll", "lame.css" ?

Thank you

Granot

Granot,

Firstly open the Audacity Folder and find the 'old' Lame Encoder and check to see what version it is. If its 3.97 then you need do no more. If its an older version remove ALL Lame Files,simply delete them ~ then load All the 'New' Lame Files into the Audacity Folder and re-start your PC ~ thats it !

Better to have have 'unzipped' the (New) Lame Zip File directly into the Audacity Folder having first removed the old Files. (Lame 3.97 ~ there should be 14 Files of 1.09 mB total size)

Concerning WAV to OGG Format, the only Converter I ever got to work correctly is that which comes with

the QCD Player from www.quinnware.com They have a vast list of Plug-Ins ~ some of them will work with Audacity, you need to try that for yourself.

Brian.Conflow.

[boxig]

Brian

My Audacity Folder has no Lame file or any file similar to the 14 files in the zip. I just used the Lame.exe through command line. Now that you told me I will put all files in the root folder of Audacity. I will also download "QCD Player".

Many thanks for your help

Granot

[Peter S]

There is a second statement about mp3 and mp3 pro distribution on the web site that Al originally pointed us to. It is here:

http://mp3licensing.com/royalty/emd.html It is titled electronic music distribution and is under the Music Services tab. It seems to spell things out clearly on one page.

Peter

[Conflow]

There is a second statement about mp3 and mp3 pro distribution on the web site that Al originally pointed us to. It is here:

http://mp3licensing.com/royalty/emd.html It is titled electronic music distribution and is under the Music Services tab. It seems to spell things out clearly on one page.

Peter

Peter,

The 'article' you refer to above is ambigious because on one hand it refers to the Mp3.PRO (Patented)Product usage and on the other it refers to Music Distribution Rights which are two seperate issues. Fraunhofer own the "Patented Product Mp3.PRO Encoder" ~not to be confused with~ the subject of "Mp3 Music Royalties" derived from Music Productions generated with that particular Mp3.PRO Encoder which is rarely used for Mp3.Music Production. Two entirely different issues alltogether....

My Post No: 603. (Page.1 this Thread)

Item (3)

....Fraunhofer patented the Mp3.PRO Encoder/Decoder on behalf of the participant Designers and Licenced Thomson.CSF (a French Corporation) to distribute this to Manufacturers and Software Developers Worldwide. The Mp3.PRO Program contains all the basic 'source-codes' for a Developer or Manufacturer to make his own Mp3 Encoder, ALL of which are compatible but each with differences depending on the quality wanted. (One can also view a Listing of Licencee's of this Mp3.PRO Product).

I also included a Screen-Shot as to Fraunhofer & Thomsons' caretaker attitude to their "Mp3.PRO Product".

So lets get this straight:- The Mp3.PRO Encoder is a Patented Software Tool (a Product) which is Licenced for use to Sound-Product Manufacturers and Sound-Product Developers whereafter they develop their enhanced Mp3 Products for Retail Sales. The Patent applies only to the Mp3.PRO Product not to subsequent developments of it which would be "Patents of Improvement" ~ Owned solely by the Retail Manufacturers & Developers.

The matter's of:- Performance Copyright and Music Royalities and Mechanical Copyright are seperate issues.

I hope I have explained this to your satisfaction.

Brian.Conflow.

[Peter S]

Brian,

Thanks for your reply and your patience with those of us not "in the know". I am still not entirely clear but an example would I think get me home.

I have copyright free material purchased from Medwyn Goodall. His conditions permit me to use this and distribute it in whole or part (with some restrictions that do not affect me) for commercial ventures.

I bring his music into Adobe Audition and build it as backgound music into my own narration. When I have finished all my editing I use "Save As" in Audition. I choose MP3 and Audition tells me "This is standard MP£ encoding. For higher quality at lower bit rates, try mp3PRO. There is other info in Audition's help files that also lead me to use mp3PRO so that has been my choice for all my recent compressed audio files.

There is a licensing comment in the encoder options box that says " mp3PRO audio coding technology is licensed from Coding Technologies, Fraunhofer IIS and Thomson multimedia. I had therefore assumed that I do not need to pay for any other licenses if I decided to sell some of my productions and only had a very small revenue. I am not doing any of this to make money and any sales I did make would only be to recover some of my costs.

Thanks again for sharing your expertise. Thanks also for your suggestions re structuring a slide identification scheme - very neat. I am still hoping Igor might come up with a "dual I/D system" but it may be asking a bit much.

Peter

[Conflow]

Peter,

Everything you have done so far is Legal and above Board ~ However your choice of Mp3.PRO ? ~ personally I would not have made that choice for the following reasons:-

*

Mp3.PRO is essentially a Development Tool. The fee you are asked to pay is for the 'Recorder Encoder Part' of

the product whereas the entire suite of Mp3.PRO would cost you some $3000 for a single-user Licence.

*

The quality factor is high because it processes small "chunks" of Audio in chunks of 64kilobits of Data in 1 sec this is scanned at a very high scanning rates so it takes more 'samples' of the Audio chunk and therefore its more incisive and accurate in rendition. But don't forget that it was designed for Transmitter compatibility with DAB Radio (Digital Audio Broadcast) and this Mp3 File is much larger than the current Industry Standards.

*

Hi-Fi Quality (Mp3) uses discreet "chunks" of 192kilobits of Data in 1 second ~ being scanned at 48000 times in that second.

*

CD-Quality (Industry Standard Mp3) uses "chunks" of 128kilobits of Data in 1 second ~ being scanned 44100 times in that second. (The resultant Files are much smaller than the Mp3.PRO product)

Ask the question ?, how many people today have Playback Equipment capable of doing full justice to a quality CD-Audio Disc....never mind owning Hi-Fi Gear such as Quad, Moranz, Akai, Harmon-Kardon etc,etc ? and if these owners are above 40 years of age they wouldn't hear the sound quality anyway !

So really the use of the Mp3.PRO Encoder with PC.Computers and 'Run-of-the-Mill' Audio Systems is really superfluous when the Industry Standard is acknowledged to be CD-Quality ~the exception being~ A Sound Studio which needs the Mp3.PRO Product for Master Recordings.

Brian.Conflow.