Pushing the Limits

[Lin Evans]

Found it! Linked now.
Hi Folks,

Still trying to find the practical limits for panorama zooms, pans, etc. This one may be overkill but that's the only way for me to find out where practical limits are.

I've used the techniques of "infinite zoom" in this. I haven't color matched the pano to "patch" slides but have decided it will work satisfactorily especially if the transitions are not done while "moving" in pan or zoom but rather when temporarily stationary.

I would appreciate any feedback about smoothness, etc., not concerned about the aesthetics - just a quickly thrown together project to test practical limits for RAM, pan, zoom, etc.

About 58 meg zipped executable... Not for 32 meg systems - will take at least 64 meg video card...


http://www.lin-evans.org/pte/lostfile.zip

Lin

[Ken Cox]

overall pz smooth except for the rapid stop at end of r pan - some small jerks while you reversed

great zoom on powerplant, and smooth pan left from there -- great zoom into what i thought at first was a hub cap, then changed my mind and setteled on a boulder, smooth to end

great demo

ken

[Lin Evans]

Hi Ken,

I temporarily lost the file which I had uploaded to my server. Must be senility setting in - LOL...

It's back up and the link is working now.

Best regards,

Lin

overall pz smooth except for the rapid stop at end of r pan - some small jerks while you reversed

great zoom on powerplant, and smooth pan left from there -- great zoom into what i thought at first was a hub cap, then changed my mind and setteled on a boulder, smooth to end

great demo

ken

[Peter S]

Hi Lin,

Ran very smoothly upto the point where the music changed. It stopped and |i was not sure if it had ended so I pressed Esc and it then continued to run from where it left off. The remainder ran without any further hitches. All pans and zooms were fine. There were one or two rather abrupt changes which could presumably be ironed out using decelerate and accelerate at the change points. You don't seem to have reached the limits yet :rolleyes:

Kind Regards

Peter

[CorVdK]

Hello Lin,

Some feedback on your "panozoomtest":

Begin with text: OK.

After +/- 15 sec. music stops playing for 1 sec. (hic).

Begin of pan = small jump of the image. During pan some shimmer (flicker) in the middle of the screen (strange "pulling" in the middle of the image).

Zoom to chimneys is smooth. Small jump after zoom-out.

Panning from left some jerks in the middle of the screen. Shimmer (flicker) stays all the time during fast pan.

Zoom-in on buildings: OK. Zoom-out some hic.

Zoom-in on squirrel (or whatever it is ): OK. Faster zoom-out shimmer.

Intel Pentium 4 CPU 2,00 GHz, XP sp2, 768 MB RAM, graphics card NVidia GeForce4 MX460 with 64 Mb of graphics memory.

Greetings,

Cor

[Lin Evans]

Hi Cor,

Thanks - that's exactly what I need to know. These are almost all indicative of being on the ragged edge of RAM in the Video Card. Sound hiccups, "pulling in the middle of image" jumps, jerks, etc., are caused by loading and unloading of files because the card can't quite keep up with the amount of RAM load.

On my 128 meg Radeon 9800 Pro card it's all smooth without any noticeable jerks or sound interruptions, but on several of my systems with 64 meg video I get a variety of "strangeness" - LOL.

The "shimmer" is something I can't really do much to control. It's caused by sharpness in the images. When the speed is low, it's not as noticeable but only because it happens quickly except on pans. Using "smooth" on long slow pans will exacerbate any "shimmer" when the pan starts or stops so on the first pan across the very long pano I used linear. This accounts for the abrupt stop and at the reversal to zoom toward the stacks. Stopping before "patching" in slides eliminates some of that for the close-in zooms, but can't stop it all. Using the "blur" feature helps somewhat with the "shimmer" but if the viewer is using an LCD monitor it's nearly impossible to stop it completely without simply having blurry images - something the competition does and which accounts partially for their lower quality images. It's a mixed bag; you either get nice sharp images with shimmer or soft images without shimmer. No free lunch I'm afraid so something we need to "design around" when we make slideshows. A long while ago I discussed this with Igor and perhaps in the future there may be a way to institute a temporary "blur" to soften the images while moving then a quick return to the sharp image when motion stops. Something possibly for the future.

Best regards,

Lin

Hello Lin,

Some feedback on your "panozoomtest":

Begin with text: OK.

After +/- 15 sec. music stops playing for 1 sec. (hic).

Begin of pan = small jump of the image. During pan some shimmer (flicker) in the middle of the screen (strange "pulling" in the middle of the image).

Zoom to chimneys is smooth. Small jump after zoom-out.

Panning from left some jerks in the middle of the screen. Shimmer (flicker) stays all the time during fast pan.

Zoom-in on buildings: OK. Zoom-out some hic.

Zoom-in on squirrel (or whatever it is ): OK. Faster zoom-out shimmer.

Intel Pentium 4 CPU 2,00 GHz, XP sp2, 768 MB RAM, graphics card NVidia GeForce4 MX460 with 64 Mb of graphics memory.

Greetings,

Cor

[Lin Evans]

Thanks Peter,

I've "fixed" the issue with music change, I think. It "shouldn't" pause there - probably a resource issue. The abrupt changes are because of using linear in the first slide (long pan and reverse) but I had to do that because "smooth" causes excessive shimmer on the beginning of the pan. I've played with curves, etc., and changing in custom to start with linear then go to smooth but too much shimmer remains in this case so I just kept linear. I did put a "stop" before reverse when at the end of the long pan which somewhat ameliorates the "jerk" at that point.

I think this one is on the "ragged edge" so it will probably only be suitable for 128 meg video. Cor just responded and had difficulties in places both with sound and with video so the 64 meg card is not quite up to the task. Once I get the parameters worked out for something which will work I'll publish my findings.

Best regards,

Lin

Hi Lin,

Ran very smoothly upto the point where the music changed. It stopped and |i was not sure if it had ended so I pressed Esc and it then continued to run from where it left off. The remainder ran without any further hitches. All pans and zooms were fine. There were one or two rather abrupt changes which could presumably be ironed out using decelerate and accelerate at the change points. You don't seem to have reached the limits yet

Kind Regards

Peter

[goddi]

Lin... Ran the show and had no problems. All smooth.

NVIDIA GeForce FX 5600 256mb

Gary

[Lin Evans]

Hi Gary,

Thanks! It sounds like the NVIDIA 5600 has no problems with the RAM load. I suspect it takes at least a 128 meg card to run this one smoothly so the 256 with a good GPU handles it with no problem.

Best regards,

Lin

Lin... Ran the show and had no problems. All smooth.

NVIDIA GeForce FX 5600 256mb

Gary

[mightec]

Hi Lin

The process worked well for me, clear definition of colour change during zoom into chimneys. I use a Radeon 9600 Series Display card with 256 MB.

[ronwil]

I experienced the same sound blip at the beginning as Cor Post #5. Otherwise it worked fine. NVIDIA GeForce 7600GS 256 Mb.

Ron [uK]

[Mr B]

This worked well for me with the only slight jerk when panning down from the chimneys. Smooth, smooth, smooth. I did not disable Zonealarm or AVG and (at the start) had Spybot checking for problems.

Use Nvidia GeForce FX5200, 128mb.

Excellent test, thanks.

[Lin Evans]

LOL - your old eyes are about as good as mine! It's actually a ground squirrel. Yes I've been trying all sorts of permutations to try and alleviate that "jerk" on the stop. "Smooth" on the non-linear does it very well, but then I have the annoying "glitter" on the slow start of the zoom. I've even tried patching in another slide to start the zoom then trying to fade with opacity control into the already zooming pano but my head is hurting from too much "thinking" - HA! I may work this one out yet, but still "cogitating" (or is that "codgertating"? - my wife would comment here) on the probabilities. Note: I'm still smarting over my 65th birthday this month. Sigh....

Lin

overall pz smooth except for the rapid stop at end of r pan - some small jerks while you reversed

great zoom on powerplant, and smooth pan left from there -- great zoom into what i thought at first was a hub cap, then changed my mind and setteled on a boulder, smooth to end

great demo

ken

[Lin Evans]

Thanks much! Yes, I didn't color correct so I could see the change points more easily. Of course the resolution change is pretty apparent too because I didn't have sufficient focal length overlap and had to push the original beyond a prudent zoom to match the secondary and tertiary images. You might also see the white vehicle magically appear in the driveway to the right of the stack. I could have cloned it out on the final zoom in frame, but I thought I would leave it in as a "marker". The driver "snuck" up on me between frames - LOL.

Best regards,

Lin

Hi Lin

The process worked well for me, clear definition of colour change during zoom into chimneys. I use a Radeon 9600 Series Display card with 256 MB.

[Lin Evans]

Hi Ron,

Thanks! I'm still scratching my head over why some experience sound issues while other's do not. I suspect it's just a resource issue, but you have plenty of video RAM so it must be some other interaction such as load speed. I did combine the two music tracks into one mp3 which "may" make it better.

Best regards,

Lin

I experienced the same sound blip at the beginning as Cor Post #5. Otherwise it worked fine. NVIDIA GeForce 7600GS 256 Mb.

Ron [uK]

[Lin Evans]

Thanks! I suspect that with the varied reports of some jerky movement in some places even with those having plenty of video RAM (such as your card) that I've found the "ragged" edge of what's usable in terms of image size. The initial pano consists of twelve full sized captures saved in jpg at Photoshop 12 which means minimal compression, but at about 33 meg compressed jpg this probably still expands to an uncompressed 110 meg size (tiff size for same file). So with 110 meg loading plus the additional individual frames (I'm not certain exactly how they are switched into and out of memory) that pretty well taxes a 128 meg card. It's even more surprising that people with a 64 meg card can even play it and is a testimony to the efficiency of modern engineering!

Best regards,

Lin

-->

QUOTE(Mr B @ Jun 23 2007, 10:06 AM) ←

This worked well for me with the only slight jerk when panning down from the chimneys. Smooth, smooth, smooth. I did not disable Zonealarm or AVG and (at the start) had Spybot checking for problems.

Use Nvidia GeForce FX5200, 128mb.

Excellent test, thanks.

[ronwil]

Hi Ron,

Thanks! I'm still scratching my head over why some experience sound issues while other's do not. I suspect it's just a resource issue, but you have plenty of video RAM so it must be some other interaction such as load speed. I did combine the two music tracks into one mp3 which "may" make it better.

Best regards,

Lin

You can cut out one of those scratchings Lin. I have just played it back three times without the sound glich. Must have been my computer getting worn out like me.

Regards

Ron [uK]

[Lin Evans]

Hey Ron,

LOL - I know what you mean. It's amazing how time takes it toll on us all. I hope your ankle is healing well and that the summer is a great one. Keep those great AV presentations coming!

Best regards,

Lin

You can cut out one of those scratchings Lin. I have just played it back three times without the sound glich. Must have been my computer getting worn out like me.

Regards

Ron [uK]

[jevans]

Hi Lin,

Results of your experiment using Nvidia GeForce 7300 GT card with 256Mb RAM. Mostly smooth as silk except for :

1. A little jerk when the first pan starts

2. Another when direction changes to zoom into chimney stacks at the end of the first long pan to right

3. When you zoom into the chimney stacks and change from the initial images to a new image taken with a longer focus lens, the subsequent zoom has some very small hesitations

All the rest of the pz direction changes are very smooth.

I know this is a test to assess performance limits, but from a purely ascetic point of view, you have obviously exceeded the maximum zoom ratio for your initial image sizes. I assume in an actual show, you would not zoom an image to more than 300% to avoid pixellation.

Regards

Jeff

[Lin Evans]

Hi Jeff,

Thanks! Actually, for an aesthetic show I wouldn't zoom much beyond 100% on each patch or from the original. If you read my latest post I explain how this can be avoided even with a large jump in focal length.

http://www.picturestoexe.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6953

The difficulty comes in matching the "patch" for the closeup zooms to the original pano at 100% without a series of intermediate lenses. It's always easy to zoom down but not practical to zoom in beyond proprietary limits of much over 100% (that's 100% of the original pano's true size). By making intermediate small panoramas with a longer focal length lens rather than individual frames it's possible do downsize to match 100% pano zoom size without having black borders. This also makes it easier for longer zoom in's because you have fewer "stops" and photo changes.

Best regards,

Lin

Hi Lin,

Results of your experiment using Nvidia GeForce 7300 GT card with 256Mb RAM. Mostly smooth as silk except for :

1. A little jerk when the first pan starts

2. Another when direction changes to zoom into chimney stacks at the end of the first long pan to right

3. When you zoom into the chimney stacks and change from the initial images to a new image taken with a longer focus lens, the subsequent zoom has some very small hesitations

All the rest of the pz direction changes are very smooth.

I know this is a test to assess performance limits, but from a purely ascetic point of view, you have obviously exceeded the maximum zoom ratio for your initial image sizes. I assume in an actual show, you would not zoom an image to more than 300% to avoid pixellation.

Regards

Jeff

[JudyKay]

I am playing with some zoom techniques like zooming into a building then blurring for a second to simulate the effect of moving "through the glass" and then being inside. I think this could work with the squirrel. For example you could zoom in, then blur a bit as if you were going through a patch of grass. And there! Behold! is your squirrel! Then you can zoom right on on her little nose holes. Zooming out could be done the same way. Maybe you could even zoom "through a chimney" or any excuse to blur the picture long enough to load another image much closer up. What else could you zoom through? Water, a person's eyes, a photo, glass, a door; any obstruction like a tree, car, or frame such as a doorway where the objects inside could suddenly emerge from inside of the frame. It works in my imagination, now let's see if it works in P2E!

jk

[Lin Evans]

I am playing with some zoom techniques like zooming into a building then blurring for a second to simulate the effect of moving "through the glass" and then being inside. I think this could work with the squirrel. For example you could zoom in, then blur a bit as if you were going through a patch of grass. And there! Behold! is your squirrel! Then you can zoom right on on her little nose holes. Zooming out could be done the same way. Maybe you could even zoom "through a chimney" or any excuse to blur the picture long enough to load another image much closer up. What else could you zoom through? Water, a person's eyes, a photo, glass, a door; any obstruction like a tree, car, or frame such as a doorway where the objects inside could suddenly emerge from inside of the frame. It works in my imagination, now let's see if it works in P2E!

jk

Great ideas Judy! Thanks!!

Best regards,

Lin