Moire, Jerky Display, PTE and ProShow

[stevemul]

I began producing Slide Shows with Proshow but became very frustrated with Jerky Presentation particularly with panning and zooming images and scrolling text.

Then I discovered PTE 5 and was delighted with much smoother panning and zooming plus better image quality.

However my PTE shows are let-down by one major flaw, a shimmering effect when transitioning between slides. I assume this is what I see described in these forums as the Moire Effect. It doesn't occur on all images, mostly on those with large areas of similar colour, a gray sky is a typical problem area.

I have one slide-show that includes several images taken on a misty morning. These images have large light gray areas of mist and sky. There is no pan or zoom just a standard 3 second fade in/out. The shimmering of the light areas in the images during the fade transition is horrible.

I have read these forums and followed the advice to size the image to the screen, in this case 1400 x 1050 pixels on an IBM Thinkpad T60. It is still awful. I have also turned off Anti-Virus, the Internet, Wireless, etc., but I can not get rid of this horrible shimmer.

Any ideas or suggestions would be most appreciated.

[Barry Beckham]

Steve

I don't think this is the Moire effect. I have never seen the moire effect on images that are not animated in the way you describe. There are a number of causes of the moire effect.

Contrast

Image content

Style of animation

Over sharpening

but the main cause is using images that are too big and reducing them in the abjects and animation screen when adding animation.

As your images are not large and not animated, my thoughts are turning to another problem, maybe graphics card issues. See if you can find later drivers for your graphics card before you start chasing the moire effect.

Perhaps you could post a link to your show fo us to take a look?

Barry

[Conflow]

Steve,

As you know the IBM-T60 is not the "usual run" of Laptop Notebooks - indeed that laptop is quite

special in many application areas not the least being that it has an inbuilt 'Generic TV Driver' on

its Graphic Card - this is known to give problems with other Photo Utilities.

I'm not a 'specialist' in Business Laptops such as the IBM's so I attach a "Link" to a specialised site

"Lenova" which handles all matters concerning this Laptop ~you might contact them with your problem.

http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/MIGR-62928.html

I hope this helps you...

Brian.Conflow.

[stevemul]

Barry and Brian,

Many thanks for your suggestions which I will look into.

One thing I probably didn't make clear in my first msg was that the problem I see with PTE is not there at all in ProShow. I think it must be something in the way PTE renders/displays the transitions between images that causes the problem.

This morning (Tasmanian Time) I have tested things a bit further. I tested both PTE and ProShow versions on a desktop PC. No problems with either PTE or Proshow. So my conclusion is that the problem only occurs on the Thinkpad Laptop and then only with PTE, not ProShow. Further testing shows the Thinkpad with PTE is at its worst when driving the external video port at 1024x768 which very unfortunately is the exact configuration I use to display these slide-shows using a data projector at my photo club. Too bad.

BTW, the desktop PC has dual Eizo monitors, one 1280x1024, the other 1600x1200. I tried both Proshow and PTE slide-shows on both monitors. If ever anyone wanted proof of the superior image display quality of PTE this proved it without a shadow of doubt. Fantastic PTE ! In contrast Proshow looks so soft to be almost out of focus.

I suspect the answer to this problem is probably to use a different laptop for PTE presentations but that's an expensive solution when in virtually every other respect the Thinkpad is an excellent machine.

[Conflow]

Steve,

I certainly wouldn't change that IBM Notebook ~ as I said, the problem seems to arise from

the (inbuilt) generic 'TV Driver' and there must be someway of switching off that function.

I would open Device Manager and try and find that 'driver' and disconnect its functionality.

The 'Lenova' people would know more about that than I do. Examine the site Link I sent.

Brian.Conflow.

[stevemul]

Brian,

Thanks again for your help.

I have looked at the site and found a few references to 'shimmer' type problems in the display on the T60. One inreference to a video game where the game software was blamed. Other references suggested > 1 Gb RAM; I have 2Gb. Another suggested the latest driver fixes these sorts of problems. I upgraded but can see no improvement.

I can not find any reference to 'Direct TV' and my PC does not have a TV type output socket.

I have looked at the ATI Control Center Software. There are many parameters that can be changed. I've experimented without seeing any real improvement ... also, I have to admit, without any real knowledge myself of what the parameters mean and their effect.

FWIW, I made a screen grab shot of the effect. It is roughly 50% of the full screen.

The effect is clearly at its worst when driving both the PC display and the external video port at 1024x768.

Thanks.

Steve.

[Barry Beckham]

After looking at the effect, there is little doubt that its a graphics card issue

Barry

[Conflow]

Steve,

Two questions for you:-

Q.A

The "Sample Picture" you Posted ~

(1) Was this an origional JPeg from a Camera ?

(2) Was the Image scanned in from a Magazine ?

(3) Was it an origional Photograph scanned in ?

Q.B

(1) Are you driving the External Monitor directly from the Laptop ?

(2) When doing this,is the Laptop Screen active also ?

(3) if both are active, are the two Images the same size ?

I have a very funny feeling that this effect is due to "Ghosting"

or R.F Pickup from the External Monitor Cable. It may be that the

Video Cable is not screened (many ar not) ~ it can also be a artifact

called "intermodulation" this sometimes happens when you set Monitors

to reproduce the same Image at different sizes from the same source.

Is the "effect" visible when you use each Monitor by itself solely ??

That test will tell its own story.

Brian.conflow.

[alrobin]

Steve,

Is your display colour quality set at the highest setting (e.g. 32 bit)?

[stevemul]

Steve,

Two questions for you:-

Q.A

The "Sample Picture" you Posted ~

(1) Was this an origional JPeg from a Camera ?

(2) Was the Image scanned in from a Magazine ?

(3) Was it an origional Photograph scanned in ?

Q.B

(1) Are you driving the External Monitor directly from the Laptop ?

(2) When doing this,is the Laptop Screen active also ?

(3) if both are active, are the two Images the same size ?

I have a very funny feeling that this effect is due to "Ghosting"

or R.F Pickup from the External Monitor Cable. It may be that the

Video Cable is not screened (many ar not) ~ it can also be a artifact

called "intermodulation" this sometimes happens when you set Monitors

to reproduce the same Image at different sizes from the same source.

Is the "effect" visible when you use each Monitor by itself solely ??

That test will tell its own story.

Brian.conflow.

Hi Brian,

Thanks for your msg.

The Answers :-

A. The image was shot RAW and converted to a JPEG, then resized to 1400x1050.

B. My tests are with the external video port turned on but no cable and data projector connected. Both the laptop monitor and the external port are Active at the same and the resolution is 1024x768 on both. The problem appears the same whether I'm at the camera club using their data projector or when I am testing at home with nothing connected.

The problem appears to be much worse when driving both the internal and external displays. The screen shot I posted was with both the internal display and the external port on but no cable or data display connected.

Thanks again for all your help to try to resolve this.

Best regards,

Steve.

[stevemul]

Hi Al,

Steve,

Is your display colour quality set at the highest setting (e.g. 32 bit)?

Yes it is.

Best regards,

Steve.

[cjdnzl]

Steve,

I imported your image into Photoshop and increased the contrast and saturation to show more clearly the effect you have on your image.

From looking at the result, I am certain that it is your graphics card that is the problem, perhaps because PTE is using the graphics processor to do the work of rendering the image, whereas PSG does not use the graphics chip in that manner.

I don't know if the IBM has a separate graphics card or not. If not, I fear you are stuck with the problem. If it can be changed, you might be lucky enough to get an Nvidia card to fit, ideally a GeForce 8600m GT or similar. Otherwise, I think you might need another machine

[Conflow]

Steve,

You said...."The problem appears to be much worse when driving both the internal and external displays. The screen shot

I posted was with both the internal display and the external port On but NO cable Nor External Display connected"...

Steve,

Unlike the vast majority of Notepads/Laptops your IBM is unique (repeating myself) in that it has many features

not found on other Laptops..

The one that concerns you is that it has a "Dual Video Driver System" ~ I am not talking about software drivers

I am talking electronics circuits. It has 2 individual "Video Driver Chips" one for the LCD Display and the other for

the external Monitor. (Like all Video devices these are R.F Transmitter devices and MUST BE terminated correctly)

In the standard Laptop you have a choice of using the Internal LCD Display or the External Monitor but not both at

the same time because there is only 1xVideo driver Chip....you have 2 Video Driver Chips.

It's IBM's assumption that you will terminate both Video Ports correctly....(A) If the Laptop LCD is in use it will be

correctly terminated with the LCD Driver Chip....(B) The same can't be said about the external Monitor nor Projector

Port because it depends whether the external Port is actually "switched-on" with no-load connected or actually left

open circuit without a proper 'Video Cable-Connector' being connected to it ~ This is "illegal" in RF.Electronics.

Because the 'External-Port' is switched on and NOT Load-terminated it will create 'standing-waves' within the PC

circuitry showing up as 'ghosting' or 'patterning' on the active Notepad Screen ~ when the Ext.Port (Video-lines) are

properly loaded or terminated this artifact will vanish.

Because its a 'Dual-Port Laptop' there will be a "special" Video Cable for this PC ~ its identified by having 2 cylinders

either end of the cable, each one of these being adjacent to the Video Connector Plugs either end.

See your "Quotation Above" where you actually answer your own question ~ with a little help given here.

Brian.Conflow.

P.S

(First Principles of RF.Electronics)

All RF.Sources must be properly terminated with the correct Line-Loads

dictated by the source resistance of the primary signal generator.

[stevemul]

Brian,

Many thanks for your detailed reply. I stand reprimanded for my lack of proper termination.

However, the problem occurs exactly the same when I have a cable connected from the Thinkpad video output to a Data Projector. The effect is seen exactly the same on the data projector.

Under these circumstances I assume the video output is correctly terminated ?

I do have an LCD monitor here at home I can try for testing. In 2 weeks I am moving from Hobart across the ditch called Bass Straight up to Sydney so I am a little time-stressed to say the least !! However I will try to find the time to test this.

Best regards,

Steve.

[Conflow]

Steve

We are involved in Video and VHF and UHF Data Transmission for Data/Images/Sounds etc....

How many times I forgot to terminate cables and I should have know better ~ even JC has lost count !

I can't speak for the Projector input loading (they are all different). But thats not the problem,its more

to do with the fact that you have 2xVideo Drivers sharing the same split input signal, then amplifying that

up to Video-Output levels so any stray signal reflections within the system will appear on both Outputs.

This is caused by 'standing-waves' or reflected waves due to Driver System misbalance or misloading.

The same happens when 2 TV Sets share the same Aerial Cable without using a Diplexer (Aerial-Splitter).

Do try the normal PC.Monitor when you have time....use a Video Cable connector not more that 1.0Mtr.

Twin Video-Drivers are tricky systems even at the best of times. So much depends on the signal loads

and their relative 'balance' and the quality of the Video Connectors and whether they are screened and

if they have EMI Filters and so on..... but you are on the right track now, and when you get time, contact

IBM for the correct cable ~ they are well aware of these problems, unfortunately so am I...

Best of luck with the "Moving"...

Brian.Conflow.

[cjdnzl]

<snip>

"However my PTE shows are let-down by one major flaw, a shimmering effect when transitioning between slides."

<more snip>

Any ideas or suggestions would be most appreciated.

Steve,

On re-reading your original post, the bold line above appears significant. If the effect appears only when transitioning between slides, and not while a slide is stationary, then I think that rules out any problems with standing waves or reflections from mis-terminated ports, which would be continuous. The usual effect seen from standing waves from mis- or un-terminated ports/lines is ghosting, a secondary image some distance to the right of the main image. That distance is a function of the reflected path length, and in your laptop the path lengths are so short that a ghost would be invisible; also, the inteference does not look like a ghost, and it is occurring at the frame rate, not the line rate.

Additionally, if the effect was due to RF problems, it would be program-independent, in other words it would also show in PSG, or indeed any graphic content on the screen, and not just while transitioning.

I am still of the mind that the GPU being used by PTE for hardware rendering is the root cause of your problem, and the answer will turn out to be either another graphics card if possible, or worst case another computer, unless you elect to stay with PSG.

Good luck,

Colin

[Conflow]

Steve,

I have just read Colins posting.....and on re-reading your origional 'Query' there was something

I had overlooked,viz:- that which Colin had picked-up on,quoted...

...."The shimmering of the light areas in the images during the fade transitions is horrible"....

Could you verify that the effect only happens during 'Transitions' on the Laptop LCD Screen ?

and is this 'effect' visible on a connected external Monitor...don't leave the Ext.Port switched on

without a Monitor or at least dummy-load connected...(don't forget you have 2 VDU Drivers).

I looked at Colins' enhanced Image and quite definitely this is an 'inter-modulation' artifact superimposed on

the fading image and in my experience that 'smacks' of an RF reflection somewhere in the system, you can clearly

see the multiple waveforms.

If you have time to do that 'Test' then it might resolve that issue one way or another as I am very loath to suggest

changing a good Laptop like the IBM T60 as I find it inconceivable that IBM would release such a modern Laptop with

such an obvious design defect.

Brian.Conflow

[Conflow]

Tom,

The points you made are now well noted ~ in fact I don't know whether Steve is running "Vista" on the IBM T60 ?

and indeed whether he is running PTE 5xxx (what version) on the T60 ? and indeed that would beg the question

as to whether the T60 is really suitable for Vista etc,etc......I don't have those answers !

I guess we will have to wait for Steve to get back to us concerning those crucial points.

Happy "New Year" to all...

Brian.Conflow.

[stevemul]

Tom and Brian,

Thanks again to all who are helping here.

I'll try to answer some of your questions .....

T60, 2gb Ram, XP Pro

PTE 5.1

Hardware Acceleration is turned on. I think that's the default as I've never changed it.

It would be interesting to try my test project under PTE 4.x. I'll try that and turning off Hardware Acceleration as soon as I get a bit of spare time.

Best regards,

Steve.

[stevemul]

I tried Hardware Acceleration On and Off ... No significant Difference.

I also downloaded and installed version 4.49, again no significant difference.

A Happy New Year to you all.

Best regards,

Steve.

[nobeefstu]

Steve,

If your IBM T60 has a 'ATI Mobility Radeon X1300 Graphics with 64MB Shared Memory' video card ... the video card is not capable enough to produce smooth PZR effects and use of D3D acceleration setting in v5 PTE slide shows. Check your video card mfgr/specs to verify.

I also downloaded and installed version 4.49, again no significant difference.

Since you seem to still have the same display issues using PTE v448-9 which has different graphical engine (and no PZR effects or D3D) ... I would first check/install for any video card updates for your model.

*It may help to supply more details/properties of the shimmering images ... and how you produced them.

* Sometimes its possible to resolve shimmer/flicker effect by increasing the monitors refresh rate ... though it may not be possible using your current Native resolution 1400x1050.

[Conflow]

Steve,

Well it looks as if you have exhausted nearly all options in an effort to cure this "shimmering-effect" and on

reflection something has nagged me about the sample Photograph because I have seen this effect before

when working with 'specialised-photographs' of working Engines both Diesel & Electric and with IR.Photos.

Some of my artifacts were generated by 'electrical field emissions' from the Machinery and others by obscure

'infra-red emissions' from both man-made and natural phenomena.

May I offer a possible hypothesis and will you tell me if the following assumptions are partly right or wrong ??

On close scrutiny of the (sample) Photograph I make the following deductions:-

* The photo-location is somewhere on the 40~45 Line of Latitude in Europe or Mediterranean perhaps ?

* Its an early morning Photo, shot in the "raw" without an IR.Filter and without "raw" IR.correction ?

* Photo was taken in mid Spring or late Autumn when the sea-temp is higher than the morning air-temp ?

* There was considerable hi-altitude 'sea-fog' which had not yet burnt off ?

* The camera was pointing in an "easterly" direction with overall back-lighting from the East ?

* You used considerable Zoom to get the Photo and you used a large "raw Image Format when shooting ?

* When converting from RAW to JPeg did you use a Program with 'Colour-Temp' correction ?

Normally invisible to the human-eye but can be seen by the Camera are spacial 'Light Defraction Waves'

caused by the Sun hitting the rear of 'Sea-Fog' layers as it burns off the individual layers.

The colour of these layers are relative to heat values from Lo-IR values up to Hi-IR values (yellow-orange-red).

Note the semi-circular layered pattern within the Photo but nothing on the RH.side ~ the Equator side !

(1)

I can send you a few copies of similar IR artifact's shot in evening sunshine in the Alps where the Camera saw

early evening Alpine Mist in the centre of Fussen Town ~ this was not visible to the human eye.

(2)

I can also send you a magnificent B&W Photo of Wexford Harbour (shot in colour) but only the cold & hot

parts of the images are visible on the Photo ~ again an early morning shot.

Brian.Conflow.

[AnKo]

I have seen this effect before, on LCD-screens not set correctly on screen resolution. Could it be that you work on a LCD-screen? If so, is your LCD-screen able to project at least 8-bit (256 x 256 x 256 ~ 17.000.000 colors) photographs? I ask you this because many LCD-screens do have a 6-bits panel onboard which can "only" display ~ 220.000 (64 x 64 x 64) colors at a time. Could the answer lies somewhere in this?

In my opninion it has to be something with the graphical part of Steve's PC and/or monitor. Refresh rate at 65?

By the way, the Photo is a real beautifull shot! Wonderful moment captured there!

Hope you solve this problem soon. You have the best advisers on this forum. Good luck.

André

[cjdnzl]

I have seen this effect before, on LCD-screens not set correctly on screen resolution. Could it be that you work on a LCD-screen? If so, is your LCD-screen able to project at least 8-bit (256 x 256 x 256 ~ 17.000.000 colors) photographs? I ask you this because many LCD-screens do have a 6-bits panel onboard which can "only" display ~ 220.000 (64 x 64 x 64) colors at a time. Could the answer lies somewhere in this?

In my opninion it has to be something with the graphical part of Steve's PC and/or monitor. Refresh rate at 65?

By the way, the Photo is a real beautifull shot! Wonderful moment captured there!

Hope you solve this problem soon. You have the best advisers on this forum. Good luck.

André

A good thought, but not, I fear, the right answer for Steve's problem.

6-bit LCD displays are used primarily for improving the response speed of the screen, and the 'missing' colors are simulated by 'dithering' adjacent pixels, which is claimed to closely approximate an 8-bit screen. For all practical purposes, a 6-bit screen is adequate except for color-critical applications where absolute color accuracy is required. For these applications, Eizo or similar screens are used, at a price of a couple thousand dollars.

My Dell laptop has a 1650 x 1050 6-bit LCD screen, and an Nvidia GeForce 8600M GT GPU, and it shows none of the artifacts that Steve's shows. I'm not a betting man, but if I was I'd lay money on his problem being the graphics processor. Further, Steve stated that the effect is visible when projected with a data projector. which takes his screen out of contention.

Basically there are two broad types of laptop computer; those designed for business, and the so-called 'gaming' machines. Business machines - which Steve's IBM Lenovo is - generally have more modest GPU cards, since most business applications do not use rapidly changing graphics. If they can handle a DVD they're ok. Any bigger GPU chip will generate more heat, and shorten battery life unnecessarily.

Gaming machines are oriented towards considerable GPU processing power, for obvious reasons. PTE by design uses hardware rendering of graphics, which means that the GPU is doing the all work of putting the picture on the screen. This approach to the program's design ensures the best possible image quality - and PTE is renowned for probably the best image production of any slide show program. The downside of this is that the computer needs a good graphics card, preferably a gaming card to handle the program demands.

The GPU in the Lenovo machines appears to be either an ATI X1300 or possibly an X1500, not really adequate for PTE's demands.

Note that Steve says the shimmering effect is not present when running a ProShow show. This is a significant piece of information, because ProShow does not use hardware rendering; it uses the CPU, and if it cannot keep up with program demands, the image and sometimes the sound will stutter.

The fact that PSG does not show the shimmering problem, to my mind (as an electronics technician) seems to indicate that RF standing waves, EMR etc. is not the problem, which leaves the GPU as the most likely culprit.

Brian Conflow has proposed that unusual weather conditions could have produced the effect actually on the original camera image. I do not believe this can be so, since Steve stated that running the PTE show on another computer gave a clean result with no 'shimmering'. If the fault was with the image it would show on all machines used to run the program.

I believe Steve's best bet is find out whether the Lenovo will accept a better graphics card, preferably an Nvidia since they do not have the profile problem that dogs ATI cards; an Nvidia GeForce 7600 or 8600 or even better. If that course of action proves to be not possible, his only remaining choice is another machine, of the gaming type, not a business type.

Colin.

PS: There is an outside chance that the GPU in his computer is actually faulty, which gives an additional reason to try a card change.

[Conflow]

Colin and Steve,

Colin,in retrospect I am inclined to agree with you having read your last Post.

I did not realised Steve had actually tried out the 'Show' on another PC

which ran the 'Show' fault free. This definitely points back to the IBM.

But I have a problem with that,viz:-

If it is the IBM Graphics Card ~ Why does it not occur with all Show Images,

all of which have been processed from 'Raw-to-JPeg' all in the same way ??

And why does it not occur with other Shows made on the IBM, or is this simply

a once-off production or is that a speculation on my part ??

There seems to be an unexplained inconsistency in the Show as if the PTE

programs are being 'selective' in their renditions of those particular Images,

in my experience thats not possible.

My reading of the story is ~ its happening with 'certain images' so I refer back

to those images again !

I do believe that there is something wrong with those Shots particularily if all

the other Shots are rendering O.K.

Perhaps I am missing out on something..and I wonder if Steve were to reconstruct

the Show with the 'Problem Shots' and a few 'Normal Shots' with NO Transitions and

NO P&Z ~ with each shot some 5 secs in duration, then review the results.

Brian.Conflow.