Live Sound recording

[Conflow]

TOMUK

Tom,

The Griffin Model you are looking at on EBay is the 'older' version of the Griffin Module which

I had posted ~ Here below again is the "Attachment" I posted and a 'Link' to a U.K.Supplier

and there are many of these.

Concerning "import" to Audacity etc; ~ well the Module creates a Music File of your PC and

that File is imported by you to Audion or Audacity .

All Technical details of this Product are on the WebLink and its made for Windows.XP and Mac's.

Please read all the Product Data very carefully as there are major differences to the 'Older' Model.

Brian.Conflow.

"Link": http://www.etcetera.co.uk/products/GRI001.shtml

[denwell]

Tom/Brian

In my quest to input audio directly into a laptop, I (rather misguidedly) went for this Imic adapter. It converts mic level to line input level, but I found an extraordinary amount of noise came with it. This was almost impossible to get rid of in my sound editor and it now langishes somewhere in a cupboard. In my opinion - not the best way to go.

I would (again) recommend the Zoom H2 (slightly cheaper and more recent than the H4) and a decent set of headphones for anyone getting into live audio.

Barry

I'm still experimenting with live ambient recording on the Zoom, but if Peter doesn't manage to get a sample to you I'll try.

DEN (NE UK)

[fh1805]

Barry/Den,

I'm intending to go down to the beach and woods in the morning.

[Johnwnjr]

I have the solid state Edirol R-09 by Roland. Although I haven't had it for long, I have used it to record a voiceover with it, on quality stereo mic, (it can take an outside mic), and I recorded a broadcast over my hi-fi. The latter was because I didn't have time to set up to record, and just switched the Edirol on to record the sound from the speakers in our lounge. Obviously, not the best test but if came out very well.

As it records to a SD card there is no noise from the machine. It can be battery powered or mains, and records up to 24-bit although I have only used it at 16-bit sound (CD standard). I have also used it for playback of Oral History recordings previously recorded on tape, then edited in the computer, and put onto the Edirol for playing back to an audience. It takes WAV files and MP3 and I used WAV. The file headings appear in the readout, so it was easy to pick which excerpt I required. It is a very well arranged machine, easy to use for recording and playback. As I have no live recordings as such, except an experimental voice-over, - you'll have to take my word for it that the quality is there and very good. Full Details can be found in the Keene Electronics www.keene.co.uk or from Edirol site which I believe can be found via Google. Hope this helps. By the way it will record for 2 hours plus with a 2GB card at the highest quality and 1993 minutes at lowest MP3. It will take 4GB cards maximum.

John

[Tomuk]

I'm intending to go down to the beach and woods in the morning.

Peter,

If you go down to the woods today you'd better go in disguise.

Todays the day the teddy bears have their picnic

[fh1805]

Tom,

That's why I'm going tomorrow - to avoid the crowds.

[Tomuk]

Tom,

That's why I'm going tomorrow - to avoid the crowds.

Take some Honey and pleanty of money......LOL.

I'm also looking foreward to hearing your recordings Peter.

Tom

[jfa]

..<snip>...If live sound recording is possible to the quality enthusiasts want, why do I not see it used more often, if we don't see it from this forum, where will we see it.

Barry this is the link to a show I made over 12 months ago and posted earlier last year:

http://www.mediafire.com/?7xdaio4jxxt

It contains many small sound effects that I had recorded in the field with an old analogue tape machine which I have now junked in favour of the Zoom H2. The H2 is much more portable/versatile, gives better results and is more convenient to use.

[Conflow]

Den,

I was replying to an enquiry from JudyKay and TomUK ~ "How do they get sound into their PCs ?"

Their enquiry had nothing what so ever to do with 'Live Recording' and I think you are being a little

'unfair' in down-thumbing the 'Griffin Audio-to-USB Converter' simply based on your own experience.

This product has a good reputation and comes from an excellent Manufacturer and has excellent

Technical Support and also boasts an excellent Forum ~ I assume you contacted them.

* The product is designed for XP-Sp2 and Apple Macs...and did you download the Software for it ?

* The excessive 'Noise' you experienced is normally due to an unsuitable Mic or no PC.Driver.

(The product does not convert the Mic-Signal to a PC.Line-Input Signal as you understand it)

How it Works

The Mic-Signal is amplified to the Standard 0.db Level as is the Line-Input (0.db=.775 Vrms).

This Standard signal is applied to an A/D Converter where its digitised to a 24.bit Output which

in turn is applied to a USB Driver/Output Chip and then into any USB Port on your PC.

N.B. You do require its PC.Driver (like all USB devices) and thats offered 'freely' to every Purchaser.

So only your 'Input-Sound' can be faulty ~ because the rest is Digital and essentially Noiseless.

I personally regret that you had this bad experience but I feel had you pursued the issue with

Griffin then the outcome would have been totally different, and very much to your satisfaction.

Brian.Conflow.

P.S. Microsoft do not supply (generic) Sound-Drivers for external USB.Sound Devices.

[Tomuk]

TOMUK

Tom,

The Griffin Model you are looking at on EBay is the 'older' version of the Griffin Module which

I had posted ~ Here below again is the "Attachment" I posted and a 'Link' to a U.K.Supplier

and there are many of these.

Concerning "import" to Audacity etc; ~ well the Module creates a Music File of your PC and

that File is imported by you to Audion or Audacity .

All Technical details of this Product are on the WebLink and its made for Windows.XP and Mac's.

Please read all the Product Data very carefully as there are major differences to the 'Older' Model.

Brian.Conflow.

"Link": http://www.etcetera.co.uk/products/GRI001.shtml

Good Morning Brian,

Thank you for the above info, I have read all the Tech details as you suggested and did another search on e-bay,this is what I found(attach),

I am asking for your advise before purchase as the buy now price,+ postage seems realy cheap.

What do you think.

Tom.

[fh1805]

Hi everyone,

The sample recordings made using the Zoom H4 are now ready for download from Mediafire here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?0cdyzjktutb

In the zip file, which is just under 58MB in size, you will find the following recordings:

- Surf (not a great surf day, the sea was flat calm! Better described as "waves breaking")

- BeachStream (recorded where the beck from the valley flows across the beach)

- Beck (recorded where a small cascade enters the beck alongside a patch of broken water)

- Waterfall (a long abandoned mill race)

- Woodland (birdsong and general ambience)

All five have an equivalent image file taken from the spot where I stood to make the recordings.

Also in the zip are two more sound files:

- RobinSinging (the little blighter flew off before I could get the camera out! He was about 10 feet up the tree which was about 10 feet ahead of me. The traffic sounds are from the bypass road that is about 0.5km away beyond the Robin)

- Voiceover (a sample of the original take of the most recent voice-over recording that I've done)

All recordings except the voice-over were made this morning (Sunday 10 Feb 2008) between 0730 and 0830 GMT. All recordings except the voice-over were done hand-held using just the in-built microphones and the supplied foam shield. For the voice-over, the H4 was fitted into its tripod cradle and attached to my Benbo tripod. The mics were about 12 inches ahead of my face, about 12 inches up above my mouth and about 12 inches over to the left, pointing towards my mouth.

All recordings, including the voice-over, were done "blind" (or should that be "deaf"?). What I mean is, I didn't have any headphones in use to monitor the recording as it was made or immediately after it was made. The first time I heard them was after they had been uploaded to the computer and taken into Audacity.

None of the recordings has been altered in any way in Audacity and the outdoor recordings are presented at their actual recorded length. It's "raw" sound.

As an extra piece of information, during the recording of the BeachStream, the unit was constantly flashing "Low Battery" warning. This doesn't seem to have adversely impacted that recording. I have no idea how long a set of batteries will last. I am currently using up "second hand" batteries that came out of my now-retired Nikon F90, F801, SB24 and SB16 or were the "spares" for those units.

The images were taken using a Nikon D70 and the Nikon 18-200mm VR lens - again hand-held.

Note that this is the third time I've tried to capture the sound of a waterfall and I have come to the conclusion that white water creates "white noise". Having analysed my results I now believe that successful outdoor recording has to be approached with the same strict discipline as outdoor photography. I need to actively listen and ask myself: what is it about this sound that I find so appealing/interesting? And then work out how best to capture that. With the H4, "point and shoot" works reasonably well most of the time, but some situations clearly require more thought.

[Ken Cox]

PETER

imho

the surf, robin,and woodland sounds had real good "peaks and valleys".

the other sounds were "flat"

ken

[denwell]

Brian

I'm no audiophile and stand in awe of your own audio knowledge.

However I'm just passing on (for what it's worth) my own experiences with this device, which doesn't need PC drivers - it's seen as a normal input device by XP:

"There aren't drivers necessary for the iMic. If your operating system is USB Audio aware (XP does this best), your Mixer will see the iMic as an Input/Output device. Simply go to Sounds and Audio Devices in your Control Panel and select the iMic as your recording device and your computer's sound card as your playback device."

I'm aware most people would use it for digitising old LPs and cassettes, and it's cheap, but as an input for a live mic then I found it to be unsuitable for my purpose that's all - despite the usual reviews for and against.

This thread began with a request from Barry for information/experiences regarding live sound recording - I'm merely trying to pass on my thoughts. Following your advice I may indeed pursue this device further in time.

Let's hope Tom finds the Imic does all he wishes if/when he purchases one- I look forward to hearing his experiences.

DEN (NE UK)

[Conflow]

Hi Peter,

Yes 'Water Recordings' are extremely difficult to achieve, and as you mention 'water white-noise' yes

you are correct.

Horizontal 'Moving-Water' in open space with small wavelets, and breaking wavelets, and random trickles,

compress and decompress the air mass above them. These 'compressions' move outwards as sub-acoustic

waves (below 20.Hz) and when there are hundreds of them they compound together and can be heard as

a form of 'Shussssssh Noise' extending way into the hi-frequencies. There is no simple cure for this noise.

I have previously Posted the "Twin-Mic Recording Technique" with the 'Subtractive-Mixer' thats the only

answer which we Engineers have, unfortunately Barry didn't want to know about this, so what can I say ?

Ken,

All Open-Space Recordings are 'Flat' because there are no acoustic reflections. In fact extreme absorbsion

is the way Nature intended it ~ otherwise we would all go 'bonkers' with the accumulative Noise Pollution.

The only exception's being Valleys, Canyons, Escarpments and Uncarpeted Rooms which give small discrete

reverberations and longer Echo's ~ so you get some brilliance with these.

Waterfalls

Peter, you could not have chosen a more difficult subject (except Aircraft & Trains) ~ Here is a little help.

'Falling Water' hits the pool below at some considerable Velocity and Horsepower. It comprises a number of

sounds: Lo-frequency compressive concussion sounds and reflections, and Hi-frequency 'Shuuuush' from the

plume of falling water and the usual wall reflections. The 'Sounds' are horizontally radiated and reflected.

To record properly you need Stereo-Mics: One mounted above the other with a 2~3"inch gap between them

(not side-by-side) and direct the Mics towards 'off-centre' of the falling plume, not at the base of it.

Both Mics should be wrapped in Rubber-Foam (not plastic). You will need a piece of 'Hardboard 2.ft/sq or some

form of 'Baffle' placed on the near side to the Waterfall. Yes its tricky, but you will get a good result.

(What we are doing here is getting the 'vertical-signature' of the Waterfall not its horizontal polar pattern).

Peter may I commend your efforts, you are one of the few really trying out 'Live-Recording, as for me ~well I've

been at it for over 30 years and have the scars to prove it.

Very best of Luck...

Brian.Conflow

[Conflow]

Good Morning Brian,

Thank you for the above info, I have read all the Tech details as you suggested and did another search on e-bay,this is

what I found(attach), I am asking for your advise before purchase as the buy now price,+ postage seems realy cheap.

What do you think.Tom.

Tom,

I can't really answer this nor advise you, because its 'Used Equipment' without the Manufacturers Guarantee

and neither you nor I know its current 'functional-status'. How about the Software Download ? will Griffin

supply this to a 2nd.Owner ~ they specifically stated to all 'New Owners' ~ so I don't know about that either.

I'm sorry, I simply can't advise on your decision whether to buy/or not to buy....you will need to get the facts

from the EBay 'Seller' ~ thats what EBay is all about, but the final decision is yours.

Brian.Conflow.

[fh1805]

Brian,

Thanks for your explanations and suggestions in your replies (particularly in post #39). You seem to be an expert PC hardware technician and an expert sound engineer, too. Is there no end to your expertise?

I'm afraid I'm going to disappoint you a little now... I have similar objectives to Barry. IWhen it comes to outdoor sound-recording I want something that is easy to carry round and can do a reasonable job in a wide variety of situations. For me the H4 provides all that I am looking for. It fits in the outer pocket of my little camera bag and requires just four steps to make a recording:

- switch it on

- set Gain to High

- press Record to get a visual on the signal level

- press Record again to begin recording

And it produces what, to me, sound like crystal clear recordings. Certainly they are good enough for my needs.

[Ronniebootwest]

Hi everyone,

The sample recordings made using the Zoom H4 are now ready for download from Mediafire here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?0cdyzjktutb

Hello Peter,

Can I suggest that you always start your recordings with about a 10 seconds of 'blank space' i.e. just the background noises before you actually start recording the actual subject matter. In this way, you might be able to use this blank background to capture a noise reduction profile so that you could use the features in (Audition) to reduce the noise levels.

Just a thought!

Ron

[Conflow]

Ronnie,

Thats an excellent suggestion ~ its exactly what Sound Engineers do, and its the right way

to start any 'Live Recording' session ~ I hope others heed your advice.

Brian.

[Conflow]

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the personal reply and I do appreciate that you want to keep things simple so

to suit your own applications and objectives, of course many are as like minded as yourself.

However being a Forum Member I do try to make an effort to help others avoid the 'pitfalls'

in this new branch of AV.Productions, namely: 'Live Recordings' ~ and what better way to

help, but to put my experience of (manufacturing) Sound Systems to use here on the Forum

so others can benefit.

Forum Members have become aware that good 'Sound Recorders' actually cost less than

a 'Point & Shoot' Digital Camera ~ so given time, I can see this new activity opening up in

so many ways, all of which will enhance the WnSoft AV.Program.

For those who wish to see what we are discussing, here below is one 'System Example'

Regards,

Brian.Conflow

[RonH]

Wow what a can of worms this has turned out to be.

My main interest since 1969 has been audio visual or slide tape as we used to say; I even earned a good living from conference production for many years. I know that sound in AVs should be equal in quality to pictures but I do think that including your own SFX of good (as opposed to studio) quality is better than not at all.

Even my little Zoom H4 with an external mic and good Beyer DT100 headphones is more weight or at least bulk to carry in addition to my camera gear. Then of course there’s the problem of recording a one-off action at the same time as photographing it, the camera mirror noise interferes. If it gets anymore complicated than this, why not download SFX from the internet? That’s studio quality.

I’ve just recorded an audio track (no pictures) for a talk about using Auditions for AV soundtracks. It’s crammed with effects for demonstration purposes and I had great fun making it - from whoopee cushions to letterboxes – all on the Zoom H4 and the sound is, in my opinion, good enough to enjoy even without pictures. I have lots of your CDs Barry so I’ll send you one of mine!

Come on guys, for most of us this is a hobby, encourage people to use their own recording and don’t put them off with talk of studio quality field recordings. The reason you don’t see (sorry hear) recorded effects in AVs is because most people think there is a mystique about it. It’s no more difficult that getting great pictures like some of the ones in your AVs Barry.

Regards RonH

[Ronniebootwest]

Come on guys, for most of us this is a hobby, encourage people to use their own recording and don’t put them off with talk of studio quality field recordings. The reason you don’t see (sorry hear) recorded effects in AVs is because most people think there is a mystique about it. It’s no more difficult that getting great pictures like some of the ones in your AVs Barry.

Regards RonH

Hello RonH,

I agree with your comments and I wish that I could see more shows with sound bites that have been recorded by the person making the slide show.

I would like to hear some of your recording made with the H4. I have heard that there is a lot of 'hiss' created by the poor mike pre-amps so I have been put off a little. Perhaps you would upload some samples to Mediafire???

I am interested in the new Sony PCM-D50 but it is only available in the USA at the moment.

Ron

[Ken Cox]

here is what Ronnie wants

http://www.naturesound.org/Recording_Gear/...rding_Gear.html

$588 canadian

complete specs here

http://www.savedbytechnology.com/main3/sony_pcm-d50.htm

pretty classy -- would look real nice next to your hi end Canon's and Nikon's

ken

[fh1805]

Can I suggest that you always start your recordings with about a 10 seconds of 'blank space' i.e. just the background noises before you actually start recording the actual subject matter. In this way, you might be able to use this blank background to capture a noise reduction profile so that you could use the features in (Audition) to reduce the noise levels.

Ron,

Whilst I can understand, and agree with, what you are suggesting in the context of an indoor recording, I fail to understand how your "just the background noises" differ from the "background noises" which are exactly what I want to capture in the outdoor recording. Where is the "just the background noise" when I am standing right beside the breaking waves on the beach, or beside the waterfall or the woodland edge?

What you and Brian mean by this initial 10 seconds is surely all about capturing the venue acoustics before the performers begin. What am I supposed to do, tell the Robin to shut up for 10 seconds before he sings again? (I'd use an Emoticon here if there was one for "tongue-in-cheek"!!!)

[Conflow]

Hi Ronnie,

I see that Ken beat me to the 'Post'....

The Sony PCM-D50 is also available in B&H Photo Video. New York.

Price: $499 or in your money £256 U.K. and they Ship overseas.

I know that because I buy my equipment from them.

Thats a good price for a "Pro-Recorder"

Brian.Conflow.

[Conflow]

Peter,

You know, this Forum does not allow one to go into ~in-depth~ explainations as

to the 'where-and-why' concerning a perfectly valid statements such as Ronnie's:-

Quote:

...."just the background noises before you actually start recording the actual subject matter"...

Yes in your case the 'subject matter' could be the Sea coming ashore and its background effects

and ambience...

But hold on now.

What about the 'unheard' artifacts which could destroy your Recording, such as a distant Car, or

a distant passing Train or overhead Aircraft and worst of all a small wind vortex which will smother

the recording completely or indeed a contineous tree branch whistle or Camera clicks.

Scenario.1

Such are the reasons to make a 'pre-take' so one can hear any 'Background-Noises' distinct from

the needed ambience and then when one edits the Sound one can use the 'Noise-Remover' utility

built into Programs such as Audacity and Nero Sound Editor.These programs need a few seconds

sample of the 'artifact' so it can be suppressed or removed. The same goes for Tape-Hiss and

Microphone-Hiss and so on and on.

Scenario.2

Now assume you had made a long journey to a small Town to record a 'Bell Carillion' at 12:00 Noon

and it plays at this time daily. So you ignore a 'pre-take' and go ahead and Record the Bells.

You go Home and replay the Recording, and damn it: You hear the Telephone Wires whistling !!!

Wow, that sure was an expensive waste of time...and when will you get the oppurtunity again.

Now don't tell me this is in the arena of 'Studio Quality Field Recording' (as RonH has suggested)

in fact it would be a very careless amateur indeed who would make such an expensive 'blunder'.

Now to get something else into context ~ On this Forum we are talking about Amateur Equipment

NOT 'Professional Portable Recorders'. To validate my point,open the "attachment".

Brian.Conflow