PTE for Competitions

[Big Kev]

Is it possible for PTE to be improved for use for single image competitions?

I have used it for competitions successfully before by putting all the images into a folder....randomised them by dragging them in to the slide list at the bottom, arranging the project so that the right click makes the image go to the next and the left to the previous image and then projecting using 'preview'.

The problem arises when the judge requires certain images holding back for viewing later - I have made a note of the file numbers of those, then at the end of the round removed all the slides from the list and then in the lightbox...double clicked on the images the judge wanted to see again and they have gone back into the slide list.

This is ok when there are as small number of images and a small number of clubs. When there are more - say 1500.....finding all the images to put back in can take some time.

The only thought I have had is to use two computers - one to drive the projector in preview mode....the other to have the the slide list show on......as each image comes up...all the lower marked images are deleted from the pictures on the slide list running order.....and when a high scoring image come along...the image is kept on the running order so that at the end of the run through only the highest scored ones remain for reviewing. If the marks are important then they can be typed into the 'comment window'

Then the whole lot of images could be saved as a back up zip...and then transferred to the projection machine to be shown.

This is all a bit messy - any other ideas???

Maybe a button can be provided in the preview mode.that when pressed will attach a marker to that image?

Then all the ones with the marker can be shown and the others hidden...is that possibe???

[Jean-Claude]

- any other ideas???

Instead of PTE you can use Irfanview and its thumbnails module.

Put all images in a folder, display the thumbnails with IrfanView,

Click on one to see it, type Enter to fullscreen,

Richt click to next

Left click to previous

ESC 2 times to return to thumbnails,

Select another pictures if necessary

Right click and Delete selected pictures or DEL to delete pictures from the folder

With the popup menu you can also copy pictures to another folder

[John R]

Instead of PTE you can use Irfanview and its thumbnails module.

I am looking again at Irfanview after using PtE many times as the viewer for digital competitions.

The reason is that I am told PtE does not display images with true fidelity to size and colour.

Following this criticism I tried images of different sizes in v5.5 and it appears not to display a 1024x768 image precisely. I cannot test how "colour aware" PtE is.

I tried downloading the old PtE presently available on the website and that appeared to display the 1024 exactly.

Regardless of image management the primary requirement of any program used in a PDI Competition is that it is completely faithful to the authors intension.

[davegee]

You should not get "size" issues provided you use either "Disable scaling of main images" in the SCREEN options OR use "Original" in the COMMON tab in O&A.

Provided either of these properties are set you will get ACTUAL PIXELS on your monitor.

If you do not use these properties images will default to "Fit to screen".

DaveG

[John R]

Provided either of these properties are set you will get ACTUAL PIXELS on your monitor.

If you do not use these properties images will default to "Fit to screen".

DaveG

Sorry but that doesn't help. The 1024 seems still to be displayed in the same way - though it is more difficult to make comparisons. Also, you would have to separately resize any files in your competition which were bigger than 1024x768 and you that means time and possible degrading of the image. I think the ideal projection program SHOULD resize images bigger than 1024x768 but display images smaller than 1024x768 at their true size.

I have said elsewhere that the problem appears only to have arisen since v5.0

[davegee]

You can't have it both ways.

"Fit to screen/slide" will do all that you require EXCEPT for displaying the smaller sized images - they would have to be re-sized by changing to "Original" in COMMON.

"Disable Scaling...." will do all that you require EXCEPT for resizing images larger than 1024x768. They would have to be re-sized by setting "fit to screen/slide" in COMMON.

If you stipulate up to 1024x768 then anything bigger SHOULD BE DISQUALIFIED!!!!!!!!!!

It is usually the people with a string of letters behind their name who "test the system" by putting these large images in. Once disqualified they will usually not do it a second time.

Problem solved!

See: http://www.gwynfa.org.uk/index.php?file=mi...s/cms&id=21

and: http://www.gwynfa.org.uk/index.php?file=mi...s/cms&id=48

(On the other hand I did once ask the very same question as you of Igor: that is to have a mode which would set "original" UP TO the resolution of the monitor being used to view and thereafter "fit to slide". No one else seemed to want it and therefore did not reply - Igor declined to comment).

DaveG

[John R]

You can't have it both ways.

"

You can have it both ways. Windows does it, Irfanview does it. Anything bigger than 1024 is shown 1024 anything smaller is shown true size.

My concern is that PtE does not display 1024 accurately. It seems that the earlier version - prior to v5.0 does.

Regarding rejecting entries - I would not want to do it. It is not too much to ask that the images are still displayed even if the preparation is wrong. Obviously we want a limit on file size though and I would reject big files. Where the person who incorrectly sizes or colour assigns their images will suffer is that their images will not be viewed as they hoped. This is why the VECC will accept anything up to 3000px but they say "the images will be viewed 1024x768 and are therefore best submitted at that size.

Quoting print sizes - it is not the same. Prints have to be framed or put in boxes so it is fair to reject oversize stuff - if the rules state that. The L&CPU currently accept anything up to 20x16" (this will have to become 40cm x 50cm as the PAGB are changing from 2009).

The sizing of PDIs is a problem for people, I have run PDI comps at our club for 4 years now and I am still getting 768px by 1024px submissions - from experienced members. Beginners I am prepared to help directly.

John

[fh1805]

Hi John,

In an earlier post you stated "...it appears not to display a 1024x768 image precisely". This point doesn't seem to have been clarified in subsequent posts. What exactly did you mean by this?

[davegee]

John,

I should have said: WITH PTE, you can't have it both ways.

Secondly, as a competitor, I think you are WRONG about submission sizes. If your rules say 1024x768 then that is what submissions SHOULD be (It is SO MUCH easier for the organiser). Next year there will be a variety of submission sizes 1024x768, 1400x1050 and 1920x1080 and I eagerly await watching the chaos that this is going to cause.

I repeat: Only once would you have to disqualify/reject a submission - it would not happen with the same person twice. I'm afraid it is the only way to go - it worked at our club where we are getting in excess of 100 entries per monthly competition (I was not instrumental in the administration of the ruling but welcomed it).

I, like Peter, would like you to clarify your statement that "PtE does not display 1024 accurately"?

If Windows and Irfanview do EXACTLY what you want then why not continue with those?

DaveG

[fh1805]

Further to my post above (post #8)...

You got me thinking so I did a few simple tests. I created two images in Photoshop:

- Image1 - a black slide with a 1 pixel white border (total image size = 1024x768)

- Image2 - a black slide with a 1 pixel white border (total image size = 1280x1024)

Image1 is built to match the native resolution of my digital projector. Image 2 is built to match the native resolution of the monitor on my desktop PC system.

I then opened PTEv4.49 and created a new project that contained just these two slides. I also opened PTE V5.5 and create a new project that contained just these two slides. In both projects I set the background to be a bright orange shade via Project Options...Screen tab

When I Previewed the v4.49 project, the first image was displayed in the centre of an orange screen (as I expected it would be). The second image was displayed with the left-hand white border visible at the extreme left of the monitor, the bottom white border visible at the extreme lower edge of the monitor - but no sign of the top or right borders!!!

When I previewed the v5.5 project, the first image displayed the white border on the top, left and bottom - all at the extreme edge of the monitor display: and no sign of the right-side border!!!. The second image displayed in the middle of the screen, all borders visible but with a small orange band at the left and right sides.

All the work was done on my desktop PC which has an nVidia GeForce 8400GS graphics card

So, to summarise:

PTEv4.49 + Image1 - Displayed as expected

PTEv4.49 + Image2 - Display did not show the top and right edges

PTEv5.5 + Image1 - Display did not show the right edge

PTEv5.5 + Image2 - Display did not fill the monitor screen

Does anyone else experience these results?

It seems to me that the problem could lie with any one or more of:

- PTE

- Monitor drivers

- Monitor hardware settings

- Something else that I've not thought of

Where's the best place to start looking to get to the bottom of all this?

[davegee]

Hi Peter,

There was something written a long time ago which suggested that you could get into trouble by using a one pixel line - I can't remember the context.

Having said that I have been creating a Monitor Resolution / Aspect Ratio Comparator and I just ran it again.

On my 1280x1024 flat screen monitor it is PERFECT - with a 3 pixel line all around the images (same card as you).

We had a similar problem with a projector which was solved by altering the "frequency" setting in the projector (strange but true).

You should be able to run the same image in Windows Picture and Fax Viewer to see if you get the same result.

I just did and it is, once again, PERFECT (no different to when viewed via PTE).

DaveG

[xahu34]

Hello Peter,

The attached project works well on my office PC with on-board Intel graphics, and 1280x1024 monitor.

Best regards,

Xaver

Munich

test_1280_v55.zip

[fh1805]

Progress!!!

I downloaded Xaver's test project and this gave me the same result as my own projects - no wihite line at top or on right. So I was now suspecting my hardware or drivers rather than PTE. I visited the nVidia website and established that I am running out of date drivers. However, the installation process sounded a bit too complicated for my liking, especially as they warned that I must turn off my anti-virus software whilst doing the install. As I am on an "always on" broadband connection I am very reluctant to disable such a key element of my protection. I decided to park any work on the drivers for the moment and look at the monitor hardware set-up.

I activated the monitor's in-built menu system and before I had a chance to do anything, it immediately started doing what it called an "Auto-Adjust". As I watched, it nudged the screen display to the left a bit and down a bit. I stepped through the rest of the menu system making no other changes.

Upon re-running the previews of my two projects, the v449 one now ran exactly as I expected it should. The second image filled the screen top-to-bottom and left-to-right and with all the white borders visible. However...

The v5.5 project second image still showed a narrow orange stripe at both the left and the right. This has to be my background setting coming through. But the second image is sized at 1280x1024, the native resolution of the monitor. Why isn't it filling the whole screen display (as it does in the v4.49 project)?

We're getting there; but we're not quite all the way there. I've attached a zip of my two images and the two PTE project files. The Pte file names make it clear which is v449 and which is v55.

ImageSize.zip

[fh1805]

Further to my last post (#13)...

If I take Image2 into Objects & Animations and change its setting from "Fit to Slide" to "Original", it then fills the screen exactly as I believe it should have done in the first place. But I shouldn't have to make this change. My image file is sized at 1280x1024. My monitor resolution is set to.....

Cracked it! Whilst thinking about the words I wanted to use I suddenly realised that I was running with my aspect ratio set to "4:3" in the Project Options...Screen tab. When I change this to "5:4", Image 2 now fills the screen and Image 1 now has a narrow orange band at the top and bottom.

Everything is working as it is supposed to - except my brain! As I said in a reply to a different thread: Life is getting too damned complicated!

So, for the past ten months I've been looking at a "cross-eyed" monitor which now "sees straight". PTE does show all of the image in its proper proportions provided you set all the parameters up correctly.

My apologies to all for having temporarily hijacked this thread. Let's get back to where we were at posts #8 and #9.

John, the question still stands: what did you mean when you said that PTE didn't display 1024x768 precisely?

[John R]

Firstly, thanks for your help.

I do use Windows, in our Digital KO, but, until now I prefered PtE for running a normal PDI comp.

One thing that spoils the enjoyment of the audience is glitches in the presentation. So, I send the judge all the images before the comp and they mark them. On the night I then present them in +/- reverse mark order in a manually controlled PtE. But first we watch a PtE auto presentation of all the images. After the judge has talked us through the images we see a third PtE which is again auto and has the highest scoring images with titles and author names. The members love it. They also appreciate the fact that I give them every consideration in accepting the images - this is perhaps one reason why our membership is up by 33% and 75% of the members enter my PDI Comps.

Back to the resolution thing. My experiment was remarkably simple. I took an image which had plenty of detail - it featured a small flower bud which was quite hairy. I prepared three jpegs SEPARATELY. One was the original size (already converted from RAW and cropped) of 1900 px width. The second was 1400 x 1050 and the third was 1024 x 768. When I vewed these in Windows, full screen with the display set at 1024 x 768 the 1024 x 768 looked sharper and more detailed than the other two images. I then popped the three images into PTE v.5.1. The three images LOOKED IDENTICAL - the "advantage" of preparing the 1024 had gone. I tried them in Irfanview - the 1024 looked best. I then discovered that I was not up-to-date with PtE and downloaded 5.5 - still the same. I then downloaded the old v4 version whice is now available and this displayed perfectly. I should have added that my v5 is a deluxe version - but I don't expect that that will make any difference.

This all arose because one of the people judging one of our three PDI comps next year said, "Just send me the original files, not a PtE because it is not colour aware and doesn't display correctly".

At present I still intend to use PtE on the evening but it will be v4.

[Ken Cox]

Maybe you should attend the demo day that Maureen is putting on c/w Igotr in attendance to see just what you are doing wrong

ken

[fh1805]

When I vewed these in Windows, full screen with the display set at 1024 x 768 the 1024 x 768 looked sharper and more detailed than the other two images.

John,

It would do. When viewing the 1024x768 image you were viewing every single one of the pixels that you had included in the image. When viewing the other two images (both of which were sized bigger than 1024x768), you were seeing only some of the original pixels. The excess pixels were deleted from your image and some of the remaining pixels that you did see would have been modified in order to achieve a "reasonable" facsimile of your original images. It's called "interpolation" - a term used to describe the addition or removal of pixels to/from an image in order to make the image fit the defined size of the viewing area. When-ever interpolation happens there will always be a loss of definition.

I then popped the three images into PTE v.5.1. The three images LOOKED IDENTICAL.

Identically good or identically bad? As you have seen in my posts above, it is easy to get the wrong settings in PTE and thus not have the expected result when the images are displayed. If you were trying to simulate in PTE the views that you had just had in Windows, I think you would need to have Project Options...Screen set to 4:3 aspect ratio (to ensure that you are matching the aspect ration of 1024x768) and you would need to give consideration as to whether to use "Fit to Slide" or "Original" as the Mode setting on each image in the Common tab of the O&A window.

[davegee]

John,

Have you ever considered that by accepting "oversized" images and passing the originals to judges you are giving some an unfair advantage?

If you were to give a judge an original image 3000 pixels wide and an identical but resized version 1024 wide I'm willing to gamble that the 3000 image would come out on top.

Applying the same logic to non-identical images is just as valid. The judge is going to view the originals at "Actual Pixels" in PS and all other factors being equal i.e. composition etc the larger image has the advantage.

"A good A3 will always beat a good A4" - see the other thread.

If that is a level playing field I'll eat my Hard Rock Cafe mouse mat.

Just kidding - I treasure it!!

DaveG

[John R]

John,

Have you ever considered that by accepting "oversized" images and passing the originals to judges you are giving some an unfair advantage?

If you were to give a judge an original image 3000 pixels wide and an identical but resized version 1024 wide I'm willing to gamble that the 3000 image would come out on top.

DaveG

The judge is asked to view the images at 1024 x 768. If he/she does this an oversize image will nearly always be resampled down to 1024 and the entrant will be at a disadvantage - he/she is not in control of how the image will appear. Likewise smaller image than 1024 will either appear smaller (occupying a smaller area of the screen) and suffer lack of impact or (worse) be upscaled by the software and be considerable degraded.

Hence the advice. "Images will be judged at 1024 x 768 and are therefore best submitted at that size.

I can assure you that a 3000px original, viewed at 1024 will not look as good as a specifically prepared 1024 of the same iamge, viwed at 1024 - Just try it! (But don't use PtE v5 to do it - then they WILL look the same - and that is my whole point !)

[davegee]

I shall pass on that.

DaveG