An Audio Visual Snob

[Barry Beckham]

I had a great feedback line following a full days demo, where 2-3 of my latest slide shows were played. It was a written comment, sent on later, but I thought it summed up pretty well some of the riduculous things people say. Now what do you suppose he/she meant by this?

"Don't pass off pictures and music as AV"

I would love to meet that person and ask to see what they have created. Stupidity alive and well.

[cjdnzl]

I had a great feedback line following a full days demo, where 2-3 of my latest slide shows were played. It was a written comment, sent on later, but I thought it summed up pretty well some of the riduculous things people say. Now what do you suppose he/she meant by this?

"Don't pass off pictures and music as AV"

I would love to meet that person and ask to see what they have created. Stupidity alive and well.

They probably have a pocket-sized video camera they hosepipe all over the place with ambient sound and think that is AV.

AV shows of the calibre of yours are like classical music played at railway stations and shopping malls to drive away the vandals. The author of the comment above is clearly a vandal.

Colin

[Ronniebootwest]

Thank goodness that all people are not all the same!

Whoever made that statement had as much right to say it as anyone else and I guess that he/she was referring to the old way of creating Audio Visual with twin projectors. In these days of digital we all tend to simply put music to our slides because it is all so easy to do. How many of us really put the same effort into our shows in the same way that the 'old school' did?

I am sure that the comment was made with the very best of intentions.

Ron

[Davidh12]

I suppose it depends how people define AV. For some it is Just bunching a group of related slides together and adding a bit of music and I have done that myself. OK I have tried to be a bit more thoughtful of matching slides, and timing transitions to the music but all that I wanted to do was show some photos I had taken at an event. For some that wouldn't really be AV in the truest sense I have heard as much said at competitions. For those people and maybe the author of Barry's comment AV's should be researched and compiled documentary's or well thought out and worked stories. I have had a go at one of those and there is a lot of hard work involved it's enjoyable and I could understand (if not agree with) the snobish, nose up at the former simple shows. I have seen a couple of Barry's shows in which I would say fall into another category that of Art. Wonderful images merged into one another with great use of the 'third image'. All different but the same? You've brought up and interesting topic Barry

David

[Conflow]

Democracy at work ~ People have the right to comment ~ Not always for the best reasons !

Its just 10 years ago that we at Conflow Services were making 'Synchronisers' for use with

3M-Carousel Projectors (Slide Projectors) whereby the projected Images were synchronised

to 'Stereo Sound Tracks' coming from Akai X-300.Pro Tape Recorders. We also had cross-resolve

and fade and hold from one Projector to another....it was hard work, but doesn't time march on ?

One can only say 'se la vie' - thats life.

Brian.Conflow.

[Barry Beckham]

Ron

I saw the loads of so called proper AV over the years I have been involved with Camera Clubs and most of it was DIRE. I can still see the mould spots before my eyes now from one so called AV worker as as for interesting subjects, you must be joking. It has nothing to do with twin projectors or the method we use to create our sequences.

I am very intolerant to this form of predudice, because I have seen it over and over again in Clubs and where has it got us. Absolutely nowhere.

We saw it when colour prints started to show up in competitions and the call was to ban or segregate.

We saw it again if anyone did anything remotely creative in the darkroom, that the mainstream didn't understand.

The comment is not said for constructive criticism, it is said as a put down. Lets hope those who judges AV don't take the same line.

[Lin Evans]

Hi Barry,

Human nature is often the culprit. There is a general resistance to change and our memories often ameliorate the past. The "good ole days" were sometimes good and often not so good - LOL. In photography we have a segment who are anti-digital and long for the "beauty, resolution, dynamic range" (fill in the adjectives, etc. here) of film. Others, like myself, remember long hours in the darkroom with smelly chemicals and fingers crossed hoping that the one frame which we remembered and a "possible" wasn't out-of-focus or otherwise compromised and a sign of relief or curse when the results were obtained. I remember hours of burning, dodging, masking and other drudgery which has been replaced with a few minutes with Photoshop. Chimping has replaced the uncertainty of whether the frame was captured properly, etc.

So too are some whose memories of how things used to be have been tinted with the rosy glow of selective memory. I suspect your detractor fits this genre. Let the comment pass like water off the back of the Mallard in the neighborhood pond and continue making beautiful shows for an appreciative audience.

Best regards,

Lin

Ron

I saw the loads of so called proper AV over the years I have been involved with Camera Clubs and most of it was DIRE. I can still see the mould spots before my eyes now from one so called AV worker as as for interesting subjects, you must be joking. It has nothing to do with twin projectors or the method we use to create our sequences.

I am very intolerant to this form of predudice, because I have seen it over and over again in Clubs and where has it got us. Absolutely nowhere.

We saw it when colour prints started to show up in competitions and the call was to ban or segregate.

We saw it again if anyone did anything remotely creative in the darkroom, that the mainstream didn't understand.

The comment is not said for constructive criticism, it is said as a put down. Lets hope those who judges AV don't take the same line.

[bjc]

Barry,

Sadly,,, in the world of ‘AV’ ~(as in: International Audio Visual Competitions)~ a series of breathtaking images, accompanied by a well chosen piece of music, just doesn’t cut the mustard.

And, to a certain extent, I can see where they’re coming from.

For THEIR purposes they require a Story Line, a Narrative, a Purpose for the Audio Visual other than simply putting music to pictures. And unless you are able to come up with some really good ideas, they are extremely difficult to do.

Unfortunately,,, the trend for these so-called AV’s appears to be, predominantly, directed towards Doom / Gloom / and Despondency. So,,, if your cat hasn’t died, your Grandmother hasn’t fallen out of a tree, or someone hasn’t died of starvation following a horrendous catastrophe,,, you won’t stand much chance of winning any of the Trophies.

Image quality doesn’t seem matter an awful lot either, but, if you can output the voiceover as a Poem (preferably one that doesn’t rhyme) you are awarded three extra Brownie Points.

I can understand the AV’ers having their own preferred format (other than just images-to-music),,, it’s their game, so they can set the rules. Unfortunately they are in the minority,,, most people preferring to go down the images-to-music route (let’s face it, it IS much easier),,, so they are likely to remain a small elitist group of manic depressives, unless something comes along to change their way of thinking. Which I really can’t see happening. Sad isn’t it !?

bjc

[TonyFalla]

Unfortunately I have also seen this trend that if it is just music and slides then it is not a proper AV show, one of the speakers we had at our photographic club referred to them as being just Photo Harmony. I have very little experience with AV only starting when I first went to digital but to my mind an AV show covers a wide spectrum be it simply a set of images set to music or a set of images with a complicated soundtrack consisting of some combination of music, poetry, sounds, voice, etc.

At the end of the day when I watch an AV it is whether or not I enjoyed the show and whether or not the show kept my interest. It is purely personal, I am sure there are shows that I don't like that others think are wonderful and vice versa. It will be a sad day if AV's start to get compartmentalised according to how it is made and what it contains.

The writer of the note is going to miss out on a lot, if they are only going to watch AV Shows that are more than just "pictures and music".

[Alan Lyons]

Hi All,

I read this topic with intrest and a wry smile. I believe that A/ V is a broad church and that there is room for all types of sequences. But when you mention "slides to music" and "quick and convenitnt" in the one breath I get the vision of a randomly selected piece of music which does not fit to the images or the mood of the sequence. If you are proud of your images then treat them with respect. There are many sequences out there which have been ruined by bad disions in the production stage. This applys to both the "slides to music"and the "full production numbers". I have sat behind many a projector and watched many a show which fell by the by because the author has not gone the extra mile to make the sequence what it could be.

The snob value comes in when advice is given in a way that talks down to the author. Good advice well given should encourage, not raise the hackles.

Barry, you needent wory the statment you recieved is not the worst critizem I have heard. That goes to the lady who wad in the audience for a competition and at the breake saought out the auther of the sequence and as proud as can be said,

"The music you used for your sequence was so nice, i just closed my eyes and drifted away"

To this day she thinks it was a complement

If any one has heard abetter put down I would love to hear it.

Alan

[pwear]

Fine images set to appropriate music dominate the world of AV. That’s what most of us try to produce. But we have to be careful about becoming smug and narrow-minded ourselves.

The most powerful combination of still pictures, words and sounds I have ever seen was a French AV a few years ago that was photographed in one of the dreadful colonial prisons in South-East Asia and documented the atrocities there in the last years of the French occupation. I’m sure some of you have seen it.

It was AV taken to a higher level than most of us practice, because it told a story, provoked a response, stirred passions so powerfully. It was also technically complex, but not as an end in itself. Most of us probably don’t have the time or dedication or inclination to tackle such heights in AV production, but should admit that the heights exist and applaud those who set out to scale them.

[LumenLux]

Unfortunately I have also seen this trend that if it is just music and slides then it is not a proper AV show, one of the speakers we had at our photographic club referred to them as being just Photo Harmony. I have very little experience with AV only starting when I first went to digital but to my mind an AV show covers a wide spectrum be it simply a set of images set to music or a set of images with a complicated soundtrack consisting of some combination of music, poetry, sounds, voice, etc.

At the end of the day when I watch an AV it is whether or not I enjoyed the show and whether or not the show kept my interest. It is purely personal, I am sure there are shows that I don't like that others think are wonderful and vice versa. It will be a sad day if AV's start to get compartmentalised according to how it is made and what it contains.

The writer of the note is going to miss out on a lot, if they are only going to watch AV Shows that are more than just "pictures and music".

Amid many good comments, yours speaks to much of my own sentiments. I will venture to say further that AV in America (as far as I know) has never had a narrow, specific definition. I dare say, to most Americans, Audio Visual means simply a presentation or even a product utilizing both audio and visual medium for the senses. From my years in this forum it of course has become apparent that in other parts of the world the AV defintion has been much more developed, promoted, debated, loved and hated. I agree Barry that the original assertion may have been intended as a put down. And I guess the snob claim could be that common folk who choose to label their work as "AV" are trying to hijack the snob-elite's property by using the term. I think it would be simpler at this point for the snob-elite to add a qualifying term to their chosen narrow specialty. That would seem more productive than trying to get the rest of the world to lay off using their term. Finally though, I could understand the original "put down" to be a facetious, tongue-in-cheek, joke to a friend.

[Barry Beckham]

The main issue for me is when the establishment takes these views. I am too think skinned and ignorant to take any notice and I go my own way regardless. What the down side of these comments are, is when they are the backbone of the AV establishment.

Then they make sure they steer everyone down the same track as was done in Camera clubs some years ago. You just could not stray from the established norm or your work was not treated seriously. That is thankfully now not the case, probably due to the digital revolution.

I agree some great AV's can be produced with terrific story lines, but why do so many seem to be centered around attrocities and war. I am not sure I want to see too much of that for entertainment. We have those wall to wall on TV now.

(and please no lectures from anyone about least we forget)

Leave the boundaries loose and allow people the freedom to push them and experiment with AV. If you try to pigeon hole AV workers then newcomers can easily get pushed out. AV is one of the most exiting parts of the digital revelotion and I want it to have freedom.

[Antbrewer]

How interesting that Barry has brought up this thread and the subsequent debate at this time.

At my Photographic Society the last meet of the year in April was our very first AV competition. For all our members digital AV is a very new and exciting arena to showcase our images. However the visiting judge (who I will not name ) but seemingly a wellknown AV judge with a background mainly in music editing with the BBC no less opened the evening with his remarks on judging and scoring and his wants and opinions on how AVs should be created, ie, the idea/conception, then the choice of music and finally to go and take the images.

I immediately felt 'here we go again'. Exactly as Barry and others have said......'Why must the so called establisment in the photographic world dictate their narrow opinions which in my opinion go only to stifle creativity and possible hinder and curb the enthusiasm of ''ordinary'' members. What is this obession with competitions? Why cannot we just enjoy at club level an array of individual AVs as we can on this and other forums where we all submit our own and inevitably varied sequences without the need to follow opinionated and bigoted guidlines set out by these sad and irritating people.

Anthony

[Alan Lyons]

I would agree with some of what Anthony says,but even if we only take "snaps of the family", good composition will make them memorable. My advice is listen to what is said, take on board what is relevent, and be able to stand by your efforts.

As one movie director whos name I cant remember said:

"Some of us are here to save the world, some of us are here to sell popcorn. There is room for both"

[Ken Cox]

Alan

cant find your exact quote

but some good ones here

http://en.thinkexist.com/search/searchQuot...?search=popcorn

ken

[Peter S]

Barry,

Some like to put people in boxes and one version says there are innovators and adaptors. They are different and find it hard to get along because they are polar opposites. Have al ook at this little table and see where you think you might be and where your "critic" might be. If anyone finds this of particular interest there are questionnaires that you can answer and find out where you stand. There are of course many people towards the middle of the spectrum but for those of us at the extremes it is sometimes hard to see where the opposite extreme is coming from.

Kind regards

Peter

[Barry Beckham]

Peter

I have done quite a few of these types of tests over the years and when your honest some of them are scarily accurate. With this one I seem to be 65% and 35%

A foot in both camps

[Peter S]

Barry,

You're a bit better balanced than I am! A few years ago, when I still had to work for a living, I was developing a training programme with a colleague who had a similar profile (leaning towards the innovator end). On discovering our profiles an external advisor immediately said "now I know why it's so difficult to get you guys to concentrate on the details and settle on a final solution". We just enjoyed trying new things too much.

Peter

[ksf]

Having just trawled all the way through the varios comments I am suprised at how much interest has been sparked by one seemingly throw-away remark made to Barry. I think, to be honest without seeing the work which prompted such a response we cannot really pass any further judgement. What I do think however is that, really Barry, if that is your worst criticism and it bothers you so much, you should get a life. As others have said, there is plenty of room within AV to cover all topics, all genres of style, music, image quality etc etc. If a sequence is good it will be remembered regardless of whether it has been researched and scripted....or how many characters portrayed in it have met a nasty or untimely end...or if it is just pictures to music.

I can see where such a remark might have come from if the sequence shown was anything like some recently posted on the forum, where they have quite honestly been far too long with no variation in pace or type of imagery. In these cases when the images are so regularly spaced every 4 seconds with the same transition type they can become almost hypnotically dull - no matter how good the images are.

A lot depends on why you are making the sequence and who your target audience is. The important thing to remember is to enjoy yourself when taking the photographs, enjoy yourself when putting your sequence together, and then if someone else likes it that's a bonus. If they don't like it then just remember you can't please all the people all the time - and learn to move on!

[Barry Beckham]

KSF

Your missing the point and that can't be helped in typed communications and I am not blaming your for that. I am a fairly thick skinned and a level headed person. The comment doesn't bother me personally. The slide shows being commented on can be found here

http://www.beckhamdigital.co.uk/freestuffdigslidesw3.htm

Most of them have been put up on this site at one time or another, but they are all recent creations especially to top few on this page.

What comments like that can do is drive AV into a narrow channel of acceptability. I forces newcomers to conform and stifles creativity. I know exactly what the person was saying and why.

Most of what is created by member of this forum would not be considered by this person as real AV, because it diesnt have some depressing morbid story line.

My target audience is me, I like to think others will like it too, because what I like I find other generally do too, but if not, so what?

[Guest Yachtsman1]

KSF

Your missing the point and that can't be helped in typed communications and I am not blaming your for that. I am a fairly thick skinned and a level headed person. The comment doesn't bother me personally. The slide shows being commented on can be found here

http://www.beckhamdigital.co.uk/freestuffdigslidesw3.htm

Most of them have been put up on this site at one time or another, but they are all recent creations especially to top few on this page.

What comments like that can do is drive AV into a narrow channel of acceptability. I forces newcomers to conform and stifles creativity. I know exactly what the person was saying and why.

Most of what is created by member of this forum would not be considered by this person as real AV, because it diesnt have some depressing morbid story line.

My target audience is me, I like to think others will like it too, because what I like I find other generally do too, but if not, so what?

Calm down, you'll have a stroke, and use your spell checker

[jfa]

LOL Yachtsman1

[jfa]

I have been watching this thread with a lot of interest and have restrained myself from commenting until now but can't be silent any longer.

Barry I am glad you know what your critic said because it makes no sense to me.

If they had said ---

"Don't pass off pictures and music as GOOD AV"

"Don't pass off YOUR pictures and music as AV"

"Don't pass off pictures and music as ALL AN AV CAN BE"

"Don't pass off JUST ANY pictures and music as AV"

"Don't pass off pictures and music ALONE as AV"

and so on and on and on. I may not agree with their comment but would have some idea of where they were coming from.

As the comment stands almost anything can be read into it, (and has been here), so I would have put it in the round filing cabinet in the corner of the room and not given it any more thought.

However this starts another line of thought which may need to be a new thread.

Just what is a AV? Audio Visual

Yes I think I will start a new thread on this topic.

[jfa]

I am a little confused by your post Anthony.

You/Your Photographic Society has spent some time and effort to setup an AV competition, your society members find digital AV a very new and exciting arena and I assume enter this competition, then invite a well-known AV judge, who will be a guest of the society. You attend the event and then you ask:

What is this obsession with competitions?

I would have thought this was up to you as a member of the Photographic Society to endeavour to change things. Camera Clubs / Photographic Societies basically do as their members wish. At our club we have both exhibitions and competition mainly as a result of members not wishing to exhibit their work only in competitions.

The judge opening the evening with remarks on how he sees judging and scoring and his wants and opinions, this is what I would expect from any competent judge. Apart from helping to educate, (an important part of the judging process), it also gives the audience an idea of the judges position and then his following comments can be seen though this. The judge is invited for his opinion not yours. You may except or reject it as you wish however it is just as valid.

There are many different methods that can be used to approach the creation of an AV, the idea/conception, then the choice of music and finally to go and take the images is only one and should be seen as such. This is his method the one most commonly used in the professional area of AVs, (from my experience), certainly in the TV/Movie part of the AV world which he comes from. It is equally as valid as any other if it produces the desired result, just as all topics and styles of AV are.

You appear to be guilty of the very thing you accuse the judge of.