"Sound" Advice

[JEB]

Hi,

After playing about for a couple of years with various mikes including USB I have come to the conclusion I should invest in a portable digital recorder. Whatever I do I still get a "gurgling" sound in the background which I suppose would be acceptable for an under water AV - but that's not my scene!

I have heard a number of people over this time praise the Samson H4 and mention its little brother the H2 and can’t decide which I should go for.

My needs, as I see them at present, are 90% voice-over, 5% interview (both possibly in different but controllable conditions) and 5% background noises (street scenes etc. but unlikely nature).

What concerns me a little is what drawbacks might I encounter if I went for the H2. In other words what is the justification for spending another £80.00 or so for the H4?

Your views, opinions and experiences would be very much appreciated.

Regards

John

[fh1805]

Hi John,

You live in Scotland, so I am presuming (possibly erroneously) that you are a Scot. Where's the problem? You go with the lowest cost option, don't you? Just as I, as a Yorkshireman, would have done had the H2 been available when I bought the H4.

Seriously, I have heard verbal reports about the H2 and they were all good. However, my only experience is with the H4 - and it impresses me no end!

I posted this link a while back: http://www.mediafire.com/?4gdwi2bdn1l It's an ambience recording built up from tracks made at a nature reserve. The tracks were the very first I ever made with the H4.

This link: http://www.mediafire.com/?4tn2fbgu0jz is to a sequence I built on which the voice-over was done using the H4.

regards,

Peter

[xahu34]

Hello John,

Maybe that this podcast is of some help!

Best regards,

Xaver

Munich

[JEB]

Hi,

Thank you both for your input.

Brain is now in overdrive. I will sleep on this tonight and take a decision in the morning.

Xavier, I've often wondered what a podcast actually was. Now I know. I found it very interesting and informative. Clearly there are many ways of skinning a cat but this has been new to me. I couldn't have asked for more.

Peter, If you weren't a Yorkshire-man I could have been offended! My initial instinct is to cast aside my national trait and lash out for the best no matter the cost. However your advise to go for the H2 seems to be being strongly supported by the afore mentioned podcast, at least technically. The only doubt that remains is the criticism of the buttons and the menus of the H2. That is what I have to sleep on. As a novice in this field these may be important factors that I could regret not taking account of and may justify the extra cost (Did I say that?)

Regards for now and thanks again. I will keep you posted.

John

[jfa]

John you may be interested in the discussions on this subject that have occurred previously on the forum here ---

http://www.picturestoexe.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7677

http://www.picturestoexe.com/forums/index....c=8025&st=0

Like you I had to make a choice between the H2 and H4 and was luck enough to have each for a few hours to test.

I found the results were equal in sound quality. Handling and feel of the units was very similar. The screen display size and resolution was the same on both.

The H4 had more functions but few were ones I would use.

Having the 4 internal mics on the H2 has proved to be a bonus and they are nicely tucked away out of harm, the H4 had only 2 mics which protruded from the body which worried me as I am a little rough on my equipment and thought they may be more likely damaged. Also on this when recording into the H2 built-in microphones I speak into the front of the H2 and can see the level meters as I do so, the H4 I spoke into the top of the unit and it was difficult to see the levels.

Finally the cost was the deciding factor, the extra functions on the H4 didn't appear sufficient for the A$250 extra cost.

I have posted some sample recordings from my Zoom H2 on MediaFire here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?3zbeclxuwg4

All recordings were made in WAV format at 44.1KHz, 16 bit stereo.

The file Wind Chimes was recorded at approximately 3 Meters distance with Medium Gain, Volume set to 110 and the recording was normalized in the H2. All other settings were off. It is of the wind chimes on my back veranda and there is some background wind noise as I did not use the wind screen over the inbuilt microphone, something I would recommend doing in windy conditions. Also you may hear a pigeon fly past toward the end of the recording, (at about the 43Sec point).

Chickens was also recorded at approximately 3 Meters distance with High Gain, Volume set to 120 and the recording was normalized in the H2. All other settings were off. The chooks, (as we call them here), were happily scratching around in their pen. The wind noise is apparent here also, particularly toward the end.

Birds was recorded at approximately 8 Meters distance with High Gain, Volume set to maximum and the recording was normalized in the H2. All other settings were off. I have also used a background sample here to filter out some noise in my sound editor and raised the volume slightly. The parrots were sitting in a large Eucalyptus tree next to my orchard waiting for me to leave so they could eat my fruit. You may also hear the wind chimes softly in the background in the latter part of the recording. They were some 35 Meters away.

There are 2 other files included. These were recorded along the creek that runs through my property.

The first, Bush Birds ORG, is a small sample of the original RAW file from the H2 with no manipulation.

The second file, Bush Birds Final, is the same file in full that has been "cleaned up" using a background sample as a filter, then normalized and amplified in my sound editor. I think this is well worth doing when the result is compared with the original. There is still some work to be done on this file, (remove the jet that flew over in the middle of the recording, wind noise and the noise I created moving around).

John I hope this is of some help to you. Both units are excellent recorders and I'm sure you will be happy with either.

[jfa]

Something I forgot to add you may already have found these 2 links --

The H2 --- http://www.samsontech.com/products/product...6&brandID=4

The H4 --- http://www.samsontech.com/products/product...1&brandID=4

Also I found I needed to buy a larger SD card, (2G), as I was constantly filling the one provided, (512M).

[JEB]

Hi Folks,

Once again this forum comes up trumps.

I logged on about 30 minutes ago still tempted to go for the H4 but since reading your post John, and the links provided together with listening to the audio you posted at Mediafire, I am now setting about selecting a supplier of the H2.

Thank you all very much for your time and trouble.

Regards

John

[denwell]

John

I haven't joined in this thread yet - but I bought the H2 just about six months ago and find it just fine for location and voiceover use.

Take a look here for the supplier I bought from - 'Music Street' ( a musical instrument supplier) - very speedy delivery and is selling now at £149.

http://www.musicstreet.co.uk/ Look under 'Recording/Live'

You will need an additional 1 or 2GB SD card.

Have fun!

DEN (NE UK)

[Tomuk]

John,

Try this link, some great savings.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/?ie=UTF8&key...sl_1oortz50fs_e

Tom

[JEB]

Hi,

Thanks all for your interest.

I ordered an H2 yesterday from Zoom4U.co.uk. I'm just now waiting for it to arrive and try it out. When I have had time to try it out I will let you know how I get on.

Regards

John

[JEB]

Hi,

I did promise to let you know how I got on with my H2. Sorry for the delay.

It took over a week to arrive from Zoom4U.co.uk and only after prompting with an e-mail, to which I have to say, they answered very quickly. I was, for a while quite concerned as they appear to be strictly an internet operation and I could not find any other way of contacting them. However it all turned out well in the end.

I have now started to use the H2 and am most impressed. The recordings I have made so far have been much, much better than anything I produced before using a mike and PC. The buttons are a bit fiddly but I suppose that is the price for extreme mobility. The transferring to the PC requires care in following the procedures accurately but so far no problems. Whether I personally will use all the features remains to be seen.

In conclusion I would heartily recommend this product to anybody. Well worth the investment. When I think about it I paid about half the cost (£60 ish) for a mike that was supposed to solve my problems but didn't.

Regards

John

[Guest Yachtsman1]

John

Hi John

I have an H2 bought 8 months ago but only started using 10 days ago. One thing to watch out for is converting from a WAV file to an MP3 file within the H2 can be a lengthy operation. I tried it with an 18 minute recording and it took 75 minutes. Better to download it as a WAV file into Audacity then convert it with Audacity, this takes only a matter of minutes.

Yachtsman1

[JEB]

Hi Yachtsman,

Yes, as it happens that's the way I went about it.

John

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Hi Yachtsman,

Yes, as it happens that's the way I went about it.

John

Hi John

I've just completed a two part voice over lasting just under an hour, I'm a bit disappointed A with my pronounced Lancashire accent, B with my inabillity to get some inflection in my voice, but C I thought the quality of recording a little dead. What I'm getting around to asking is what settings you use to record voice

Yachtsman1

[Conflow]

Yachtsman,

What you have experienced is quite normal to those with little experience of 'Live Voice Recording'...the problems

are as follows:-

1)

Being overly self-concious of what you are doing tends to create a 'monotone voice-over'...this is natural, as one

tends to over-compensate speech diction in an effort to maintain control over 'voice-delivery'.

2)

What the 'Brain' hears and what the Mic hears are two different things, let me explain:- The 'Brain' hears multiple

sounds both from your larynx/voice-box through the soft neck tissue and also the sounds from your Ears. Ear-Sounds

create a 'feedback' to the Brain so it can control the speech sound's from your larynx/voicebox ~ if it didn't you would

be speaking 'gooblty-gook'. But the Microphone(s) have no such 'feedback' signals so there are no sound attenuations

and consequently what the Recorder re-plays is exactly how others hear you.

3)

The Lancashire accent is a lovely colloquial accent which is very rich in its diversity....it just so happens that you got a

shock when you heard the re-play of your unique diction. Never be ashamed of your accent, its uniquely you.

Here's a Tip:

Get yourself a good legible Book, retire to the Bathroom with your Recorder (then forget it !)...now read aloud as if you

were reading a story to Children and pretend you are reading to Children...make it Child friendly and warm.

Now replay your recording and see the difference...it won't be perfect, but you are getting there, just practice some more.

By the way, no amount of 'Recorder' fiddling nor settings can correct nor impart life to a dull recording ~ thats your job !!

Hope this helps,

Brian.Conflow.

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Yachtsman,

Hi Brian

Thanks for the advice, when I said dull, I meant flat. Since the posting I have done what I should have done before I started recording, read the book of words or comic, as we call the manufacturers operating instructions. I have now made adjustments as suggested in the manual and done a short test, which sounds much better. I did something similar in 1980 making an instructional video for a large company using low quality gear, for the voice over I chose one of my colleagues with a real plummy voice and that worked, unfortunately he died of alchol posioning, so I'll plod on.

Yachtsman1

[JEB]

Yachtsman,

I see Brian has beaten me to it. Just as well as there is no way I could have given as detailed a reply. I have no technical knowledge and only a little experience, similar I suspect to your own but I will add some comments.

I put together an AV about a year ago which lasted 25 minutes and had voice over, music and limited sound effects which was my first experience. It was for me very complex and I found I had to break it up into small segments. I used a USB microphone connected to a laptop and used Adobe Audition rather than Audacity. The recording/capturing of the music and sound effects were no problem it was the quality of the recording of the voice over that was very disappointing. I am now embarking on a similar project and that was my reason for getting the H2. So far I have been very pleased with the tests I have done. I followed the basic steps as given in the book of words.

What I find is essential is that you find a location that is totally quiet - no PC running in the background, widows shut to eliminate outside noise, even a radio or TV in another part of the house can be picked up so you have to pick your moment! I also found using the little ear-plugs an advantage as they help to concentrate the mind on the job in hand.

For me I must have a printed script, in a large font, that I'm comfortable with and have read it through several times practising how I should apply emphasis etc.

A clear desk is vital as you will need to have the pages your script spread out in front of you, the sound of turning pages will be picked up.

Regarding accent, unless it is exceptionally strong it should be no problem, but in fact a benefit. I am a Scot and Brian is I believe Irish both countries have very regional variations in accent which even natives can find difficult (Aberdeenshire/Belfast) never mind strangers, so these extremes would best be avoided.

Above all relax, keep up the enthusiasm and break it down into manageable chunks.

One thing I have noticed I have to be careful with in recording at different times is that everything is set up identically each time. i.e. the same location, the H2 in exactly the same location relative to myself and of course set up to the identical recording levels.

Good luck,

John

[Ken Cox]

Eric

see advice i gave Tony as well as whole thread

http://www.picturestoexe.com/forums/index....ost&p=55941

ken

[fh1805]

John/Eric,

If you haven't yet read it, you might find this useful: http://www.picturestoexe.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8003

I always try and do the voice-over recording for a sequence in one session (perhaps in many takes; but just the one session) so that the room acoustics and my own voice are consistent. If you try and spread it over two or more days there is a real risk that the room acoustics will be slightly different and that your voice will be different. That latter can happen if you coming down with a cold or shaking one off. You may not be conscious of the difference in your voice because you are hearing it every second of each day and the changes are not obvious. The microphone picks it up at two discreet points in time with a "step change" between them and the difference in sound is very marked. I've even heard a difference between the start and the end of a long voice-over session.

You've both embarked on a new learning curve. Don't get discouraged if it seems difficult at first (it is!) Persevere and you'll find the overall quality of your AV productions is going to take a quantum leap forward.

Have fun, fellas!

Peter

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Thanks to everybody who gave suggestions and advice. I have read all I can find on the forum and the subject is as diverse as PTE itself. I've now made a test recording, it's only 2.2mb so wont take long to down load, the first bit contains the technical details of what I set the H2 to and the second is a couple of sentances from the actual show script. The original recording was from the H2 as a WAV file which is 37mb, it was then fed into Audacity, part of the music track added, and then converted to an MP3 file in Audacity which cut the file size to 2.22MB, I set the H2 to the highest quality settings as per the instructions in the manual, hence the large original WAV file. The link is http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=8ad1243...729d06d35fc9db3

Please have a listen and let me know what you think.

Yachtsman1

[fh1805]

Eric,

Your test recording shows very clear evidence of "clipping". When you open the mp3 file in Audacity, notice how the top and bottom edges of the blue waveform are hard up against the edges of the track display area. This indicates that your signal is too strong (too loud) and there is very obvious audible distortion. You need to find a recording set-up that keeps the peak levels at about -3dB from the edge of the track display. You might think that you can correct this with Normalization in Audacity. All that will do is bring the signal level down by -3dB: but the distortion will still be there. Once you've got a bad recording there is nothing that you can do to make it a good recording (Can't make silk purses out of sows' ears).

You need to experiment with one of two solutions:

- increase the distance between the H2 and your mouth (try doubling it, if that isn't enough, double it again)

- lower the microphone gain level on the H2 (on my H4 this is a simple 3-position switch: Low, Medium, High and I run it on Medium)

You are heading in the right direction; you just need a few more experimental sessions to find what works for you in your room with your equipment. We all have to go through this process. Then, once we've found the arrangement that works, we stick with it.

Keep at it buddy!

Peter

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Eric,

Your test recording shows very clear evidence of "clipping". When you open the mp3 file in Audacity, notice how the top and bottom edges of the blue waveform are hard up against the edges of the track display area. This indicates that your signal is too strong (too loud) and there is very obvious audible distortion. You need to find a recording set-up that keeps the peak levels at about -3dB from the edge of the track display. You might think that you can correct this with Normalization in Audacity. All that will do is bring the signal level down by -3dB: but the distortion will still be there. Once you've got a bad recording there is nothing that you can do to make it a good recording (Can't make silk purses out of sows' ears).

You need to experiment with one of two solutions:

- increase the distance between the H2 and your mouth (try doubling it, if that isn't enough, double it again)

- lower the microphone gain level on the H2 (on my H4 this is a simple 3-position switch: Low, Medium, High and I run it on Medium)

You are heading in the right direction; you just need a few more experimental sessions to find what works for you in your room with your equipment. We all have to go through this process. Then, once we've found the arrangement that works, we stick with it.

Keep at it buddy!

Peter

Hi Peter

I've just recorded the 1st part of the show, I spotted the clipping on the waveform before I converted to MP3 and applied the Normalization and this corrected the waveformshape. I have tinitus in both ears and slight deafness in one ear so it's difficult to tell if there is any improvement. The gain was at the lowest level. Would reducing the record mode, (48/24) at present to 44/24 or 44/16 have the same result as moving the mike further away???

Regards Eric

[fh1805]

Eric,

The beauty of sound editing using software such as Audacity (or Adobe Audition) is that you can learn as much, if not more, about the sound by looking at the display as you can by listening to it. So don't worry about your hearing difficulties. You will eventually acquire the skills to "read" a sound recording and know whether it has any serious faults.

As I said in my previous post, Normalization simply lowers the overall sound level by -3dB. If the original signal was "clipped" then that "clipping" is still present in the Normalized version, its just that it now occurs at a "loudness" that is -3dB lower than it was. What you have to achieve is an original recording that shows the -3dB clearance away from the edge of the track display without you having to resort to using Normalize.

I'm afraid I cannot help you decide what settings to use on your H2 because the controls on it are very different to those on the H4. On the H4 I can choose which microphone gain level to use: Low, Medium or High and whether to record as WAV or MP3 and that is pretty much it.

The three mode values you mention: 48/24, 44/24 and 44/16 are (and I'm guessing now):

- Sample Rate 48KHz, Sample Format 24-bit

- Sample Rate 44KHz, Sample Format 24-bit

- Sample Rate 44KHz, sample Format 16-bit.

If I am right then your choice of one of these over another is not going to affect the "clipping" issue.

How far away from your mouth was the microphone?

regards,

Peter

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Re

The three mode values you mention: 48/24, 44/24 and 44/16 are (and I'm guessing now):

- Sample Rate 48KHz, Sample Format 24-bit

- Sample Rate 44KHz, Sample Format 24-bit

- Sample Rate 44KHz, sample Format 16-bit.

If I am right then your choice of one of these over another is not going to affect the "clipping" issue.

Hi Peter

Yes they are the sample rates, I used the highest as I thought it would give best results? after reading the manual, wasn't worried about the size of the file. The H2 was about a foot away from my mouth, just below and to one side facing me as you describe in your tech talk. A copy of the manual is here for anyone interested. http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=8ad1243...729d06d35fc9db3

Regards Eric

[fh1805]

Eric,

Take the mic back to two feet away and try again. Just do short test recordings until you know you are getting it right. Don't waste time and effort on the full length voice-over just yet. Don't "project" your voice as you might in an auditorium without a microphone. Just speak in your normal voice.

At this stage all we're trying to do is establish the correct settings on and placing of the H2 to get the proper sound level.

Re the rates: 44KHz is a good standard to adopt. The extra definition captured by 48KHz is only going to be discernible by young ears - us adults have subjected our hearing to so much noise that we have lost the top-end frequency detection. Kids can hear up to about 20KHz (and that is a sound frequency that a 44KHz sample rate will capture very well); us "oldies" are down to about 12-15Khz at the top end of our hearing.

regards,

Peter