Sound files in PTE

[fh1805]

In December last year I was privileged to see Erhard Hobrecker demonstrate how he made his AV sequence "The Forest of Tane Mahuta". He uses Wings Platinum and it grieves me to say this but Wings is light-years ahead of PTE in respect of handling sound files.

In Wings it is possible to have as many sound tracks as you want. Each track can be muted individually so that it does not appear in the final EXE file (like hiding a layer in Photoshop so it doesn't end up in the final JPEG). It is possible to position the sound files along the timeline. Each sound file can have its volume level adjusted either along its entire length or between two "keypoints" (identical in concept to the keyframes we use for animation). This latter technique allows the creation of fades in and out. The wave form of the sound can be displayed. It is possible to run an in-screen preview (like our mini-player) but with the sound files visible and the cursor tracking along the timeline.

A very impressive piece of software indeed.

OK, I realise that it costs a lot more to buy than PTE. But this, or something very similar, is what PTE should be aspiring to be.

Having seen how sound can be handled in an AV software product I now present the following as my wish list of functions to be added to PTE:

- the ability to have several tracks of audio (with the waveform displayed as an option on each track)

- the ability to position the audio items along the timeline (each item having two default keyframes: the start point and the end point)

- the ability to add extra keyframes to each audio track

- the ability to set the sound level of the audio at each keyframe

- the ability to mute any selected audio track

- the ability to hide from display any selected music track

regards,

Peter

[Guest Yachtsman1]

I have never heard of the software Peter enthuses about in the start of this thraed "Wings", maybe I lead a quiet life. So after returning from Church & seeing no replies to Peters post I did a search and found their web site. One of the things on there that frightens me to death is the statement

"The unrelenting trend towards higher resolutions and best-possible quality is characterized by a multitude of HD films produced by high-quality recording devices and digital pictures from SLRs. Conventional video playing devices and their video quality, however, increasingly tend to fall short of the high quality generally expected for output and presentation.

Digital Signage Media Server

SC MediaEngine is a high-quality computer system that can be used optimally for multidisplay, digital signage or media server applications. All the systems are designed for installation in a server rack and the corresponding performance tests for quality assurance are made before delivery."

Which from my limited knowledge describes some very expensive piece of hardware needed to acheive all that Wings can do. Personally I am already worried & have stated this before, that PTE may outgrow the average users level of hardware. The problems with projection resolution in Ed's post being a case in point. For me the KISS principle is the way to go. If I had to upgrade my hardware to use future editions of PTE, I wouldn't, or couldn't afford it.

Yachtsman1.

[stardealer]

@fh1805

I also would like to have better control of audio in PTE and I agree that all the points you've mentioned are necessary to really get a step forward in terms of audio management in PTE.

@yachtsman1

Wings Platinum can be used on every standard PC and has not very different hardware requirements than PTE .

Video integration and combining it with high resolution images is the major reason you would need such a hardware monster as "Digital Signage Media Server".

It seems to be a offer aimed at professionals to give them a preconfigured and quality tested system designed specially for the requirements of high throughput of streamed data.

So it comes down one basic point no matter which program you use:

You need as much hardware resources as you put pressure on it by extending the resolution and complexity of your slideshows, may it be with Wings or PTE or anything else.

regards,

Frank

[jfa]

Peter,

Your post is like an echo from my past.

For several years I have been requesting, advocating and lobbying for the audio area of PTE to be rationalised and improved and apart from one promise from Igor that some minor sound adjustments would be added in v5.1 I was meet by a resounding silence from Igor and a general negative response on the forum. By the way the promised additions have not been added and we are now at v5.6.

Eventually I got tired of banging my head against the wall and late last year I moved to using "Wings" to meet a deadline on the production of an AV for a customer that was running a music festival. This proved to be an eye opening experience as you have said Wings is indeed light-years ahead of PTE when it comes to the audio side of AV production and is as good as PTE in all other areas. I was able to produce the audio part of the AV in 20 minutes something that would have not been possible with PTE and a sound editor in several days. The biggest drawback of Wings is the price, but then we get what we pay for, it also, (like Photoshop), offers many more functions than I will ever use.

I still use PTE to produce a quick AV that has basic or no audio and drop by the forum occasionally as I have fond memories of many discussions here and like to stay in touch with PTEs development as I feel it has the potential to be the best AV product on the market if the audio problems were ever to be addressed. Now I demonstrate both Wings and PTE in lectures I give and will recommend either depending on the requirements of the audience.

I wish you the best of luck Peter but am not confident you will get anywhere with this request.

Yachtsman1

I'm surprised you have not heard of Wings as it is and has been for years regarded in the world of AVs as the "Photoshop" of AV software. Perhaps you should get out more.

The PC I run Wings on is nothing special and is 4 years plus old it is the same one I run PTE on. I have not needed any extra hardware or special add-ons to do this.

[Guest Yachtsman1]

JFA

Sticks & stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me. I believe your attitude is in the minority and it's only so called super users who are trying to drive PTE beyond the reach of the AVERAGE user. It sound like I may be the sound of the silent majority???. Don't you realise that PTE can only exist from the proceeds of sales to new users. Any developement along the lines you suggest can only put a dent in their coffers, unless they change the rules and charge for upgrades and developement, which is where the stuff you use loses out, and if that day comes, I will carry the rope. Once purchased, all upgrades are free, at the moment, watch this space.

Yachtsman1

[Lin Evans]

Hi John,

Indeed Wings is light-years ahead of PTE in audio, but it is unequivocally "not" as good in "all" other areas.

Wings is a video based tool, and a very good one - perhaps overall the best or at least one of the best. As such it is limited by the constraints of video itself. Some animations which can be done smoothly with PTE in executable output can not be duplicated with video by any video software presently available.

This is not to take anything away from Wings Platinum. I have used Wings for many years as well as some very good and very expensive Sony software. I very much dislike having to have a "dongle" attached to my USB port and for that reason prefer my Sony suite to Wings for many purposes. There is no question that Wings is a very, very good and very superior video presentation tool, but video still can not equal executable mode in the vast majority of the most sophisticated animations and there is little control available in a video presentation for user interactivity as there is in an executables, so there is a place indeed for both these tools.

Best regards,

Lin

snip......

Eventually I got tired of banging my head against the wall and late last year I moved to using "Wings" to meet a deadline on the production of an AV for a customer that was running a music festival. This proved to be an eye opening experience as you have said Wings is indeed light-years ahead of PTE when it comes to the audio side of AV production and is as good as PTE in all other areas. I was able to produce the audio part of the AV in 20 minutes something that would have not been possible with PTE and a sound editor in several days. The biggest drawback of Wings is the price, but then we get what we pay for, it also, (like Photoshop), offers many more functions than I will ever use.

snip.....

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Hi All

Did a little more research on wings last night & this morning and found a list of prices. In case you are interested, you can find it here.

http://www.widescreen-centre.co.uk/Catalog...sentation_.html

Yachtsman1.

[fh1805]

Can we please keep this discussion on topic? This topic is about improvements to the way PTE handles sound. I mentioned Wings in the original post simply to indicate that I had seen a better way of doing the sound handling.

If you all want to discuss the merits of Wings over PTE then go join the Wings forum. Now let's get this topic back on track.

What improvements to sound handling should be added to PTE?

regards,

Peter

[davegee]

Bearing in mind recent requests, nothing less than the MULTIDISPLAY version would suffice Eric!

But you (sorry "I") have to agree with them:

The unrelenting trend towards higher resolutions and best-possible quality is characterized by a multitude of HD films produced by high-quality recording devices and digital pictures from SLRs. Conventional video playing devices and their video quality, however, increasingly tend to fall short of the high quality generally expected for output and presentation. (Where have I heard that before?)

But I'm not about to make the switch.

And while I still have Audition/Audacity at my disposal I see no need of a mixing desk incorporated into PTE.

Each to its own!

DaveG

Sorry Peter, we were typing at the same time!

[JEB]

Hi,

I have just completed a 40 minute documentary PTE show which used 450 images a commentary compiled from 23 Voice clips, 9 music tracks and 2 sound effect tracks.

I used Audition to create, firstly, a voice track and then a separate music track before mixing both down to one track for PTE. I adopted this approach to give myself a degree of flexibility when synchronizing with the slides in PTE. I do the initial synchronizing by running the PTE show without sound on one PC and the soundtrack on another PC alongside. A degree of ambidextrous skill is required!! This is not the first time I have done this sort of job but no way would I call myself an expert.

I have to say I am 100% with Peter on this. I don't keep a record of the time I spend as I do this for pleasure (I think) but I suspect that the audio aspect of this project must have represented about 50% of the total time and 99% of the frustration.

Regards

John

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Now come on Peter, you didn't just mention it, you enthused about it's benefits, assuming it far outweighed PTE's capabilities. You can't light the blue touch paper and not expect any response to the whole topic. Lins comments about Wings inability to handle exe files the way PTE does being particularly pertinant.

As far as adding sound to my work, once mastered I don't think Audacity can be beaten, and it's free. Now I have learned how to use it, I generally build the sound track before adding it to PTE, I'm not suggesting everyone use this method, but I find it easier, and gives you something to do when the pictures aren't available.

Yachtsman1

[Lin Evans]

I agree that PTE would be greatly enhanced with the type of sound capabilities which Wings has. From a technical perspective, I'm not certain how feasible this might be to implement.

I only bring up the differences between the two approaches (video based tool versus executable tool) because users need to understand that their respective approaches to creating an executable file are apparently quite different. PTE creates an executable file in a quite different way than Wings. I don't know this for a fact because I don't have access to the internals of each program, and I'm not about to reverse engineer either, but I strongly suspect that Wings incorporates a runtime engine which essentially runs its video engine as a "packaged" executable file by wrapping all the code necessary to run the video within the executable file. PTE, on the other hand, creates a pure executable devoid of any "runtime" code. How this may or may not be related to the ease of dealing with audio isn't clear, but it may be a factor.

Regardless, right now there does appear to be a bug in the audio code of PTE which I'm sure the developers are looking into. This bug appears to make it difficult to get proper synchronization of sound via the timeline without excessive iterative trial and error. Once that is corrected, then further improvments might be made in handling sound but to do this would require some significant engineering and the development of a "sound engine." Perhaps this is on the horizon for future versions.

Note on the above: The apparent "bug" turns out to be a defective MP3 file. Something with the "rewind" is not working properly in the particular MP3. By converting this MP3 to a WAV the problem is resolved so what at first appeared to me to be a bug turns out to be an issue with the file itself. PTE is working properly....

Best regards,

Lin

[jfa]

Lin,

It's my understanding that Igor has indicated it is not only technicaly possible but that he was going to introduce some functions to the audio timeline back in v5.1 or v5.2.

We plan to improve global timeline. And you will able to add any tracks (at any place of timeline) with simple effects (fade in/out, cropping).

New music player we added to v5.00 allows these effects.

v5.10 or v5.20

Link…

http://www.picturestoexe.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6806

Also

Version 5.5 will contain major changes and improvements. But we didn't finish work on advanced sound editing features for this version.

Link...

http://www.picturestoexe.com/forums/index....ic=8203&hl=

This has not happened and Igor has made no future comment on the development of the audio side of PTE. This may be because he found he was wrong and it was not technically possible, he may have been too busy or maybe he just forgot.

I think it would be very timely for Igor to make a comment on this and if he intends to pursue this area of development or not and maybe save us all more frustration and time.

[jfa]

“…..Once more into the breach my friends……”

Let me first say I do not want a fully fledged Sound Editor in PTE or for that matter the vast array of sound tools as in many other AV software products, (no names mentioned Peter).

I wish to see the audio side of PTE made simpler and more intuitive for the user. I believe this can be done along with the introduction of some audio adjustments that would improve the software at the same time and thus everyone benefits.

Following are some cut & pastes of my previous posts on the development of the audio side of PTE along these lines………

The answer as I see it is to simplify the audio area by bring all the audio functionally into the one area of PTE where it then sits in-front of the user and becomes intuitive in the relationship of one function to another and to the images. At the moment we have audio functions and/or options scattered under the Project/Main, Project/Music, Customise Slide/Music, Timeline area, Main Screen/Add Sound, Menu Bar and others areas I haven't remembered.

This simplification could be done by making the audio timeline interactive and placing all the audio functions on or under it. This would be available to the user from the current "Display Audio Timeline" button. If the user has no need for the audio functions then all of this area remains out of the way and simplifies the program for them, (just as the O/A area is for PZR functions). If the user wishes to add/manipulate audio they simply click the audio timeline display button and have all the audio functions and the audio timeline there in one place.

Also

An example of these would be--

-The ability to simply fade in/out a track with user specified timing.

-Volume adjustment for the whole track or user specified part of the track.

-The ability to add more than one sound file to a track so they play consecutively and join seamlessly.

There are many ways of doing this in PTE, one would be to add a second audio track to the timeline and have the ability to manipulate the audio file waveform display just as we currently do with the images in the image track. Just some functions could be--

Adjust the transition timing on the audio file just as we do on the image, (that is fade in/out).

Add and remove audio files to a track, and position them very accurately with a drag and drop, (again just as we do with images).

This would have the added benefit of bringing all the audio functionally to the one area in PTE which would simplify the program for the user, not complicate it as some fear. We currently have the various audio adjustments spread throughout many different menus, fields and under different tabs which creates confusion for new users, (and some not so new), as can be witnessed by the repeated requests in the same audio areas on this forum and from my experience with users of PTE.

The addition of one interactive audio timeline would be a vast improvement, two interactive audio timelines would be all I see required to fully develop these functions.

Hope this is what you are looking for Peter.

[JRR]

Peter:

Yes it would be nice to have all those options you suggest. (Adobe Premiere, another video based program, has somewhat similar features)

Like John I do a lot of shows with voice sound bites, sound effects and multi music tracks.

I have learned to work around the absence of the options you have suggested, by putting the sound bites/effects attached to individual slides and running the mixed music tracks through the Music TAB.

I then add/remove silence from the sound bites to get them placed where I want with each applicable slide.

When I have everything synched, I multi track the sound bites/effects with the music track using the time from the PTE timeline where the applicable slide starts.

Finally I then reduce the music track behind the sound bites

It is a lot of to'ing and fro'ing between PTE and the sound editor.....

Your suggestion would help

[Mike Reed]

What concerns me is that with added sound track windows I am going to run out of monitor screen space. What's wrong with using a programme such as Adobe Audition where the options are extensive. After all it is easy enough to switch from one screen to another or keep note of timings when these are vital. By the way it is not that expensive as early editions are still available. For example v1.5 is $49 from http://www.argumentsoftware.com/P8/Digital...ition_v1_5.html

[stardealer]

What concerns me is that with added sound track windows I am going to run out of monitor screen space. What's wrong with using a programme such as Adobe Audition where the options are extensive. After all it is easy enough to switch from one screen to another or keep note of timings when these are vital. By the way it is not that expensive as early editions are still available. For example v1.5 is $49 from http://www.argumentsoftware.com/P8/Digital...ition_v1_5.html

Don't take it personal, but running out of screen space you can avoid by 1st not using it and choose a view without additional soundtrack windows (surely Igor would implement it as this) or 2nd use a screen with higher resulotion.

In many discussions about new functionality it comes to the point whether one likes to follow "best of breed" or "all in one package".

Both ways have their advantages and shortcomings.

But I think our hobby is described as AudioVisual, so I can't see anything against implementing basic functions to deliver a complete solution for this purpose.

And what is requested in this thread is nothing more than basic functions.

regards,

Frank

[fh1805]

But I think our hobby is described as AudioVisual, so I can't see anything against implementing basic functions to deliver a complete solution for this purpose. And what is requested in this thread is nothing more than basic functions.

Spot on, Frank!

PTE is widely acclaimed as the best A-V software and yet how much of its function is apportionable to the two aspects:

- Visual - 99.5%

- Audio - 0.5%

and that's being generous! The only "Audio" that PTE can do is to add or remove sound files.

Within PTE I would like to be able to handle sound files with the equivalent function that I can apply to image files.

I would like to be able to place as many sound files as I want on the timeline, either alongside one another or overlapping (this implies multiple "timelines" or "tracks"). I would like to be able to control the precise position of a sound file on its timeline and see it in its position relative to any other sound file. I would like to be able to control the transitions from one sound file to the next (i.e control the fade in/fade out). I would like to be able to control the volume of a sound file between keyframes which I place on its timeline (i.e. equivalent to controlling the opacity of an image file in O&A).

This isn't sound editing - this is Audio-Visual preparation.

I will always do my image editing in Photoshop Elements - that product is designed for that specific task. I will always do my sound editing in Audacity - that program is designed for that particular task. I will continue, for the time being, (out of loyalty and on cost grounds) to do my audio-visual building in PTE - but that software concentrates solely on the "gee-whizz" of the visual side and has, so far, completely neglected the audio side.

regards,

Peter

[Ed Overstreet]

I'll add my two cents' worth and completely agree with Peter and others that there should be more in PTE on the audio side of things.

I did a show last year (in fact, the one that started with that big panorama pan that caused the tearing problem on our SX50 discussed at huge length elsewhere on this forum). In that show, in the sound file I blended four different music tracks plus three one-minute clips of my wife reciting poems she had written for the same scenes that I'd photographed. I could blend all the above in Audacity, but I wanted to fade-in and fade-out between the music and my wife in mid-music-clip, and I found in Audacity the fades began or ended with a short "pop" that probably no one else in the room except me noticed, but I hated it. I'll bet that if Igor and team set their minds to it, they might come up with a smoother and more efficient way to blend sound clips in PTE than what I can get in Audacity -- and be able to do this in some sort of timeline or "underlay" below the image track so that I can see what image is going to be on-screen at a specific point in the sound editing, rather than having to copy down timings and go back and forth between PTE and Audacity.

I'd far rather see programming effort spend on the audio side than on more "glitzy" Effect and animation features, which I think have reached or passed the point of diminishing marginal returns, at least to my tastes.

[Guest Yachtsman1]

I'll add my two cents' worth and completely agree with Peter and others that there should be more in PTE on the audio side of things.

began or ended with a short "pop" that probably no one else in the room except me noticed, but I hated it.

I think your problem with Audacity is with you or your equipment, not Audacity. I recentley completed a teach in show using PTE5.6 & Audacity 1.2 to illustrate the simplicity & flexibility of Audacity, it's the greatest thing since sliced bread as is PTE. I used the maximum of 12 separate tracks to illustrate what can be acheived, & it took around an hour to compile using my method of building the ST first then adding the pictures to suit. I use a laptop & cluttering the PTE screen with extra waveforms & timelines would be of no interest to me

Yachtsman1.

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Hi All

Maybe I was a little unkind in the previous post to Ed???? But this never ending striving to make PTE something it ain't really gets my goat. It's akin to global warming, processor warming. Whereby those of us who don't have a bottomless bank balance and are quite happy with PTE the way it is, and dread the day when our kit won't operate on the latest version. In the above post I mentioned a show I had done to accompany an Audacity teach for my local club. To illistrate my point, I've posted it on Mediafire http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=8ad1243...2db6fb9a8902bda

And the screen shot shows the Audacity compilation page. You can only see 12 tracks, as the other 5 were cut and pasted into those shown, so trust me there were 12.

OK so someone wants another timeline, or button or waveform. Everytime something like that is added the available display space shrinks. My last thought before bed, a really big step forward would be a complete re-write of the instructions for PTE from scratch, then people like me can get their heads around the current intricacies of PTE5.6, and new-comers would not be in the dark.

Night Night,

Yachtsman1

[fh1805]

Eric,

But this never ending striving to make PTE something it ain't really gets my goat.

I am asking only for PTE to be made what it already is claimed to be: the best AUDIO-Visual software. As I pointed out in my earlier post, PTE currently has no audio capability other than allowing the introduction of or removal of sound files. Right now PTE isn't "A-V software" it's "let's look at pictures in a gee-whizz style software". What's wrong with being able to position sound files at precise locations on a timeline? What's wrong with being able to define "audio transitions" between one sound file and the next? I am not wanting any editing capability for these sound files. Just the ability to do with and to sound files that which we can already do with and to image files. Thus turning PTE into true "Audio-Visual" software.

OK so someone wants another timeline, or button or waveform. Everytime something like that is added the available display space shrinks.

In any implementation of audio timelines, I would expect Igor to make the display of the audio timelines a switchable option. So you would not lose any of your valuable screen space if you didn't want to. I would also like to see the File Panel and the Mini-player as switchable options in the display - but that's another story and I'll open a new thread for that discussion.

regards,

Peter

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Hi Peter

I think you should look to the number of different responses to this thread. If it was something everybody wanted I think you would have had more than 5 different members responding. I think there would be many more responding against your idea if it wasn't for your position on the forum, maybe they don't respond for fear of upsetting you?

An anonymous poll on the subject may bring more of a response?

Regards Eric.

[xahu34]

Hi Eric,

I have asked for precisely the same feature (as described above) during the last year for several times. It isn't that funny to repeat the same suggestion again and again. So let me refer to some of my previous posts:

(Oct 24 2008, 02:01 PM) I think that the given methods of adding music to slides should be canceled. It would be better to have several parallel audio tracks (with volume control - envelope function as in Audacity) on each of which you can place several audio clips.

(Jul 7 2008, 10:10 PM) I think its not the question of having a fully featured audio editor, but its would be helpful to have several audio tracks on which you can shift audio sequences, and with a non-destructive envelope function for the volume.

Best regards,

Xaver

[deskjet1uk]

Eric,

I am asking only for PTE to be made what it already is claimed to be: the best AUDIO-Visual software. As I pointed out in my earlier post, PTE currently has no audio capability other than allowing the introduction of or removal of sound files. Right now PTE isn't "A-V software" it's "let's look at pictures in a gee-whizz style software". What's wrong with being able to position sound files at precise locations on a timeline? What's wrong with being able to define "audio transitions" between one sound file and the next? I am not wanting any editing capability for these sound files. Just the ability to do with and to sound files that which we can already do with and to image files. Thus turning PTE into true "Audio-Visual" software.

In any implementation of audio timelines, I would expect Igor to make the display of the audio timelines a switchable option. So you would not lose any of your valuable screen space if you didn't want to. I would also like to see the File Panel and the Mini-player as switchable options in the display - but that's another story and I'll open a new thread for that discussion.

regards,

Peter

Peter,

I dont think Igor and the wnsoft team have ever claimed its the best AUDIO visual software, I find it hard to read anywhere on the home page etc that this has ever been quoted. Thos comes from some of its users.

As Eric has stated, not many are replying but Im sure Igor has it in mind to develope the AUDIO side of PTE. I along with others are happy using an external AUDIO editor until Igor sees fit to expand PTE's Audio capabilities.

Ralph.