Topics that Loose their way

[Barry Beckham]

Have you noticed how difficult it is to stay on topic on forums.

I wonder how that effects a newer user of PTE who asks a question on the forum and needs help.

Swamped by good natured people all trying to lend a hand?

Then sorting through all the off topic stuff, that their inexperience may not tell them is off topic?

I wonder how many people have asked a reasonably simple question and within days have been tearing their hair out in frustration?

[misterk]

Have you noticed how difficult it is to stay on topic on forums.

I wonder how that effects a newer user of PTE who asks a question on the forum and needs help.

Swamped by good natured people all trying to lend a hand?

Then sorting through all the off topic stuff, that their inexperience may not tell them is off topic?

I wonder how many people have asked a reasonably simple question and within days have been tearing their hair out in frustration?

Hi Barry, you can put me on the list, I find it happens all the time. On my own posts or any i'm following as the topic interests me.

[fh1805]

Hi Barry,

To some extent I agree with you. I know I've been guilty of wandering off-topic in the past. But I think it is something of an inevitablity. A new topic on this, or any other forum, is just the start of a conversation that will involve several people. As with any conversation, it will have a tendency to wander away from the original subject.

I'm sure you are correct in your view that it must be hard, at times, for newcomers to find the information that they need.

Perhaps some of the problem lies in the structure of the Forum. Perhaps the "Tutorials and Articles" section of the forum should be renamed to "The Chat-room" and a new "Tutorials and Articles" section created whose content was strictly moderated to include only real Tutorials and Articles or links thereto. The likes of Lin Evans, Ronnie West and yourself have produced some very useful material that should, rightly, be in or linked-to from such a section. Unfortunately all the useful material has become swamped by a morass of general chatter.

An alternative approach might be to establish a sister-site to the forum where the genuine Tutorial and Article material was held - with the content being tightly controlled.

regards,

Peter

[xahu34]

Have you noticed how difficult it is to stay on topic on forums.

I wonder how that effects a newer user of PTE who asks a question on the forum and needs help.

Swamped by good natured people all trying to lend a hand?

Then sorting through all the off topic stuff, that their inexperience may not tell them is off topic?

I wonder how many people have asked a reasonably simple question and within days have been tearing their hair out in frustration?

I regard it as a bit too easy, just posing these questions. I would like to read some proposals or suggestions.

Regards,

Xaver

[Ken Cox]

THE ORIGINAL THREAD

http://www.picturestoexe.com/forums/index....ost&p=30136

but people do not read

most newbies come to the forum and do not adhere to the sections that we have tried to develop and start a new thread in the first slot they see

PicturesToExe

by the time somebody that can move it, it has been answered 20 times, so we just let it go

Euoropean moderators are 5 to 9 hrs ahead of North America so it should be stopped in it's tracks

we have said many times we need more sections similar to

http://en.irfanview-forum.de/vb/index.php

http://www.windowsbbs.com/

http://forums.adobe.com/index.jspa

http://www.beckhamforum.co.uk/forum/index.php

the forum layouts are not hiding if one needs examples

ken

[xahu34]

Barry complains about existing users who try to help others by adding off topic stuff.

Ken complains about new users opening new topic in wrong sections.

These are quite different subjects. So it seems that Barry’s topic has already lost its way

Regards,

Xaver

[Guest Yachtsman1]

From Wikipedia

An Internet forum, or message board, is an online discussion site.[1] It is the modern equivalent of a traditional bulletin board, and a technological evolution of the dialup bulletin board system.[2][3] From a technological standpoint, forums[note 1] or boards are web applications managing user-generated content.[4][5]

An Internet forum software package

Another Internet forum software packagePeople participating in an Internet forum can build bonds with each other and interest groups will easily form around a topic's discussion, subjects dealt with in or around sections in the forum.

Yachtsman1

[Ed Overstreet]

Hi Barry,

To some extent I agree with you. I know I've been guilty of wandering off-topic in the past. But I think it is something of an inevitablity. A new topic on this, or any other forum, is just the start of a conversation that will involve several people. As with any conversation, it will have a tendency to wander away from the original subject.

Perhaps some of the problem lies in the structure of the Forum. Perhaps the "Tutorials and Articles" section of the forum should be renamed to "The Chat-room" and a new "Tutorials and Articles" section created whose content was strictly moderated to include only real Tutorials and Articles or links thereto. The likes of Lin Evans, Ronnie West and yourself have produced some very useful material that should, rightly, be in or linked-to from such a section. Unfortunately all the useful material has become swamped by a morass of general chatter.

To support Peter's excellent points, note that this part of the forum is described in its subheads as, among other things, "discussions." As Peter notes, discussions between people will inevitably "meander" beyond what the person who initiated the discussion may have had in mind. Especially if that initiation was open to alternative interpretations, which is usually the case even in conversations or discussions between people who speak the same language, dialect and have similar technical or other backgrounds. It's par for the course, I'm afraid.

The alternative is that things become so policed that people who think they might have something worth contributing will hold back in fear of being slapped down for wandering a bit off topic. Is that what we want?

[Barry Beckham]

Xaver

I wasn't complaining, just starting a discussion point. I am not sure there is an answer because most established members are good folk who are genuinely trying to help. I am just not sure we always do that as well as we would like. Al forums are the same from what I can see.

I think the experienced members should make a bit more effort trying to stay on topic and if we all remain concious of the potential to drift, perhaps it won't happen quite so often. Me included

[jfa]

Barry your observation is a valid one, as is Peters points.

Forums that I am/have been an active member of that work well in this area tend to have a large number of sections with very descriptive/specific titles and are strictly monitored by the moderators. If a topic doesn't fit the section it's moved quickly to where it best fits.

Also moderators tend to keep discussions on the subject if they are starting to stray to far. Ken has raised some difficulties in this area above.

After all anyone of us can pull a discussion back on track if we wish.

[Gérard de Lux]

Forums that I am/have been an active member of that work well in this area tend to have a large number of sections with very descriptive/specific titles and are strictly monitored by the moderators. If a topic doesn't fit the section it's moved quickly to where it best fits.

I fully agree. Like pub or cafe discussions, you can't prevent people from going off topic, but one can help people to post in the right topic and to stay within that topic if the forum has a more detailed architecture and more active moderation.

A good example is our French forum devoted to AV; see for yourself, the interface being the same (Invision Power Board) as this one, the difference is visible (some sections are hidden to non-members, but you'll still see the difference, I think):

DiaporamaForum

Another good example is Diapositif, another French forum run i.a. by JPD and devoted solely to PTE; here again, some sections are hidden to non-members, but you can still see that the number of sections is greater than here: Diapositif.

I can assure you that on these two forums nobody complains about discussions going off topic because, if this happens, the posts are moved or re-organsed within a few hours.

[Guest Yachtsman1]

I think that what is being suggested would inhibit free discussion. There are a number of examples where that sort of regimentation eventually dries up the input and the forum becomes barren and just a technical Q&A, and a once a month visit. Keep things as they are.

Yachtsman1

[xahu34]

... one can help people to post in the right topic and to stay within that topic if the forum has a more detailed architecture and more active moderation ...

... posts are moved or re-organsed within a few hours.

I think that it would be good to have a few more (well chosen) sections. Last year I made the proposal to open a particular off-topic section (for discussions on Virus SW, Service Packs for Windows etc.), but without any success.

Strict moderation should be treated with care. Some time ago, two very similar threads of this forum were merged by a moderator, with the effect that the new unified thread came up with a destroyed flow of discussion.

Regards,

Xaver

[Barry Beckham]

I hope you realize that I wasn't asking for any moderation in any shape or form.

All I suggested that if those who post most, including myself, tried to keep in mind how easy it was to drift off topic. it would perhaps help.

[xahu34]

So, let's do our best!

Best regards,

Xaver

[jfa]

...what is being suggested would inhibit free discussion.

On the contrary, most forums I visit contain sections such as---

"Off Topic" Use this board to post your off-topic discussions and anything not related to PTE.

"Tools, Products & Reviews" Here you can find comments and reviews of the best freeware and payware tools around for PTE.

"The Pub" Is where mates hang out for a chat. It is a meeting place to discuss all things A/V, have a laugh, have a cry, share stories and generally share as a PTE Community.

It is my experience that these sections are enthusiastly participated in and encorouge more free discussion not less..

As for new and inexperienced users there is usually a section where they are directed to which contains FAQs, Manuals, Documents, Guides and other useful information.

A quick look across the forums I regularly visit shows an average of 11 sections.

Censorship is the last thing I think any of us want but a better set of signposts would encourage more discussions that would remain on subject.

[jfa]

Barry I was typing when you made your last post, yes indeed we can all but try.

[Gérard de Lux]

I think that what is being suggested would inhibit free discussion. There are a number of examples where that sort of regimentation eventually dries up the input and the forum becomes barren and just a technical Q&A, and a once a month visit. Keep things as they are.

Yachtsman1

I couldn't disagree more with this! On DiaporamaForum, statistics prove exactly the contrary - see attached picture from today's statistics. This forum is only French-speaking, thus we don't touch the huge English-speaking AV community and yet... look at the figures!

and there is more than 900 slideshows online!

Would you really describe it "barren and just a technical Q&A, and a once a month visit"?

[Bobo]

I couldn't disagree more with this! On DiaporamaForum, statistics prove exactly the contrary - see attached picture from today's statistics. This forum is only French-speaking, thus we don't touch the huge English-speaking AV community and yet... look at the figures!

and there is more than 900 slideshows online!

Would you really describe it "barren and just a technical Q&A, and a once a month visit"?

Can you share what you are doing that contributes to your success?

[Gérard de Lux]

Can you share what you are doing that contributes to your success?

I'd love to! But I don't know what to say exactly that could be useful. Let's try...

This forum has been created 6 years ago by 2 AV-enthousiasts who already ran websites dedicated to AV, and decided to put our efforts in common. Besides the two admins, we have 4 moderators. We spend several hours a day each keeping an eye on the forum to check that everything runs smoothly... and it does most of the time. Free speech is the rule, and it works (we have only 3-4 'off limits' posts per year that need to be deleted!)

The forum isn't dedicated to one particular software, but PTE is the major focus point; we have also sections dedicated to audio, photography and IT as applied to AV production, but we don't talk only about software and technicalities; members are free to show their productions (we host them for free and keep them available without time duration) which give rise to many discussions and subsequent improvements (if the author is willing to do so). As I said, we have more than 900 slideshows online available for download. There is no advertisement, no commercial links, no membership; the running costs are paid for by the two founders-administrators out of their pocket for the sake of AV (called Diaporama in French) promotion !

This forum isn't an exception; there is another one called "Diapositif" (here); it is run i.a. by JPD (who is also an active member of DiaporamaForum and well known here), and goes along similar lines except that it is specifically dedicated to PTE (whereas ours is 'general'); it has also around 1000 slideshows online (different from the ones that are on DiaporamaForum) and the atmosphere on this forum is also very friendly, co-operative, and even of a 'family gathering' style. Peter (fh1805) is a member of this forum and could say more about it in a better English than mine.

Finally, there is also a 3rd big French forum that I should mention, although it is dedicated to Proshow only, because it is also very successful with 1600 members and 87000 posts in 4 years (Images & Couleurs). Go and have a look to see another proof that a forum with many sub-forums (or sections) like this one can be very effective and efficient; they have between 150 and 200 new posts each and every day !

As suggested many time by different people, these 3 very successful French forums are organised in more than 12 sections, or sub-forums, with precise topics and regular maintenance by moderators. Moderation, in our philosophy and practice, isn't censorship at all; it is just maintenance, keeping good order and, above all, helping others.

It takes time and needs dedicated and enthusiast people, but it works !

[fh1805]

As Gérard has stated above, I am a member of the Diapositif forum. This is quite a challenge for me as I am far from being fluent in the French language. The contrast in style and content of the two forums (PTE and Diapositif) is very marked.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, the PTE forum seems to concentrate on the technicalities of the product - and especially the real or perceived bugs in the product. It is seen by its members as a channel back to Igor and the WnSoft team. Diapositif seems to concentrate far more on the end product - the AV sequences produced by the members. Both forums have their core of regular contributors who, in both cases, are a very friendly and helpful bunch.

When I first joined Diapositif, even though I was struggling to understand the French language, I found it easy to decide which section to post into because the forum was well-structured. After following the above discussion, I am now of the opinion that the PTE Forum would benefit from a greater number of sections; each one specifically targetted to a particular aspect of the membership's interest.

regards,

Peter

P.S. For Gérard: The only reason I have not joined your DiaporamaForum is that I just could not manage to participate in two French language forums (fora?) at the same time. Participating in one is, for the moment, enough of a challenge to my linguistic inabilities!

[Gérard de Lux]

P.S. For Gérard: The only reason I have not joined your DiaporamaForum is that I just could not manage to participate in two French language forums (fora?) at the same time. Participating in one is, for the moment, enough of a challenge to my linguistic inabilities!

No worries, mate! as they say downunder...

I understand perfectly, being as well a member of Diapositif and not finding time to contribute more, even if I don't have too much problems with the French language

[JEB]

Hi,

I would like to add to this discussion hoping that I am still on topic!

Ever since starting out on this AV journey some three years or so ago I have put increasing value on this community.

As a complete novice in the early days, I found it very difficult to put my hands on the information I was looking for, to a large extent probably because I was not sure exactly what it was I was looking for!!

Very early on I recognized how much help was available from members if the question was asked. At no time was I made to feel stupid or that I was being patronized but I did feel to some extent guilty. I would have much preferred to be able to search more accurately and effectively on my own for the answer but sadly, that was rarely successful largely, I believe, because of how the Forum is constructed.

Much great work has been done in recent years (notably “The Evans” User Manual and Peter’s Q&A’s) but I think sometimes goodies like that become lost.

I will cite a current example. Yesterday I made a post for help and direction on a PC issue which was totally off topic. Within a few hours I had responses from “the usual suspects” and my issue was resoled. However I felt guilty about posting where I did on the main PTE page but even more important within weeks the solutions offered are going to be lost in the depths of the archives. A section for such issues would at least help. Perhaps there is some way for “key wording” to be incorporated by members?

After three years I am better equipped to dig for what I’m after but it’s still an ordeal. I have become convinced that the addition of new more focused headings would help enormously.

I think that what we all have to remember is that the forum is run by a few dedicated individuals who give their time freely and yet people like me who receive more than they give have the nerve to be critical. However, having said that sometimes I think we can get too close to a subject and should stand back and think how it is for those less well exposed.

It is in our interests that PTE continues to expand and find new enthusiasts to take our place when we make the last transition, as we inevitably will, into white or in my case more likely black.

Got that off my chest!

John