Digital Sound Recorders

[Guest Yachtsman1]

I attended the UK North East AV group meeting last week where the topic was recording sound tracks. I sold the portable device I had (Zoom H2) as I couldn't get the results I wanted & bought the Zoom CO3U USB mike, which makes outside recordings difficult as I need the laptop. I have spent a couple of hours looking for an alternative to the H2 or new H4 & come up with the Olympus LS10 http://www.olympus.co.uk/consumer/2581_dig...ls-10_18555.htm

which looks a likely candidate. I have read a couple of "rave" reviews, but there is nothing like asking someone who has used one. Is there anyone who has one out there???

Yachtsman1

412568E40049967ACCD3091D22DB5DE3C125741E00446A70_LS_10_brochure_EN.pdf

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Hi Guys

In addition to the info on my first post, there is a Utube demo & comments from users & would be users, lookin' good.

Yachtsman1.

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Done a little more checking around, (what a fantastic tool the internet is) this time reading reviews. Samples here:

http://www.trustedreviews.com/mp3/review/2...tal-Recorder/p1

http://www.transom.org/tools/recording_int...5_olympus_ls10/

http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/olympus-ls-10-review.html

The one from Wingfield Audio is particularly helpful as you can compare sound bytes from the major players in this field. I've put the LS-10 on my wish list unless someone can come up with a good reason why not.

The best UK price I've found is £223 including the remote & mainland delivery.

Yachtsman1

[xahu34]

.... I sold the portable device I had (Zoom H2) as I couldn't get the results I wanted ....

Hi Eric,

Could you please be so kind and give us some more details. What did you expect from your Zoom H2, and what did you get? What about your general experience with the H2?

Regards,

Xaver

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Hi Eric,

Could you please be so kind and give us some more details. What did you expect from your Zoom H2, and what did you get? What about your general experience with the H2?

Regards,

Xaver

Hi Xaver

Rather than denegrate the product, if you use this link http://www.picturestoexe.com/forums/index....ighlite=%2Bzoom

or alternatively check my earlier posts on recording you will find what I had to say. My main concern was with the menu system of operation & it's operating buttons.

Regards Eric

Yachtsman1

[xahu34]

My main concern was with the menu system of operation & it's operating buttons.

Thanks, Eric

Regards,

Xaver

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Up-date on the Olympus LS-10

The Amazon UK price on this item does not include the optional wireless remote control. The £223 supplier mentioned does, so is substantially cheaper than Amazon pro rata. There is also a stereo twin mike set dedicated to this item available. Still no adverse comments??? other than a couple of minor niggles on the sites listed.

Yachtsman1

[coopernatural]

Hi Yachtsman,

For the money it seems hard to beat.A tad more noise than the more expensive units,so suitablity depends what you want to do with it .

Not a lot of difference as long as there is a high enough sound source.

There is some roll-off at low frequencies,which makes it sound a bit 'thin',so you might want to apply some bass boost

with your sound software.

Probably not worth going for external mics as I wouldn't expect the preamps to be great.

for outside use,the foam type covers are still subsceptable to wind noise,better with dead cat types if available.

For voiceover work, a Pop Filter (£10) is a must.

Davy

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Hi Yachtsman,

For the money it seems hard to beat.A tad more noise than the more expensive units,so suitablity depends what you want to do with it .

Not a lot of difference as long as there is a high enough sound source.

There is some roll-off at low frequencies,which makes it sound a bit 'thin',so you might want to apply some bass boost

with your sound software.

Probably not worth going for external mics as I wouldn't expect the preamps to be great.

for outside use,the foam type covers are still subsceptable to wind noise,better with dead cat types if available.

For voiceover work, a Pop Filter (£10) is a must.

Davy

Hi Davy

I use a pop filter with my zoom CO3U usb mike for voice overs, however if this performs as good as the CO3U, I'll probably sell the CO3U and keep the pop screen, got mine off ebay for £4.50, it has a spring clip fixing that I attach to the boom mike stand I bought, so I could sit & read the script off the laptop, nothing like comfort, it will be interesting to see how the supplied sound software compares with Audacity

Yachtsman1

[coopernatural]

Haven't heard recordings from the LS-10 other than the web samples.

You might get the desired bass boost from the proximity effect (getting closer to the mic)without using a software graphic equaliser.

If you are doing any ammount of voiceovers/recording,might be the time to ditch Audacity and go with Audition or similar.

Will look out for your review of the LS-10.

Davy

[fh1805]

Davy,

Why ditch Audacity? It's a perfectly good sound editor/mixer and, in my opinion, ideal for AV soundtrack assembly. It is Open Source and so works equally well on Windows PC, Macs and Linux systems. And it costs a whole lot less than Audition - like, nothing!

Yachtsman1,

I cannot help but feel that your willingness to constantly chop and change your equipment is likely to be counter-productive to achieving consistent results.

My recommendation to anyone coming into AV for the first time would be: pick a set of hardware/software and then learn how to get the best out of it.

Once they are achieving consistent results then, and only then, should they start making changes to their equipment and/or software in pursuit of even better results.

regards,

Peter

[coopernatural]

Peter,

I'm all for freebie tools and utilities.Although it may be necessary to go round the houses combining some freeware,very often they can put

commercial stuff to shame.

I'm not knocking Audacity.It ticks a lot of boxes and biggest one is that it's free.It's a good learning tool,but having said that, it is a bit limited.

Why Change/Upgrade? When you learn to ride a bike,nothing like taking the stabilisers off.

Not sure I would agree with your comments to Yachtsman.I don't see the point in continuing with something if it isn't working for you.

Especially if those results are consistent.

Cheers,

Davy

[Ken Cox]

Here is the thread that pretty well covered testing - 1 1/2 yrs ago

http://www.picturestoexe.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8025

cant say if the downloads are still valid

I doubt if the technology has changed since all these tests were made

ken

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Davy,

Why ditch Audacity? It's a perfectly good sound editor/mixer and, in my opinion, ideal for AV soundtrack assembly. It is Open Source and so works equally well on Windows PC, Macs and Linux systems. And it costs a whole lot less than Audition - like, nothing!

Yachtsman1,

I cannot help but feel that your willingness to constantly chop and change your equipment is likely to be counter-productive to achieving consistent results.

My recommendation to anyone coming into AV for the first time would be: pick a set of hardware/software and then learn how to get the best out of it.

Once they are achieving consistent results then, and only then, should they start making changes to their equipment and/or software in pursuit of even better results.

regards,

Peter

Peter

To paraphrase your comment, my experiences were consistently below par with the H2, hence it’s sale & my acquisition of the Zoom CO3U, which is perfectly adequate for indoor voice overs, plugged directly into my laptop, which in turn uses mains power.

However, I have recently found the need to carry out some recordings where a stand-alone device is needed. As my laptop has no battery, it precludes its use as a stand-alone device.

After Fridays meeting I looked at the new H4 specification & found it still uses the menu system whereby multiple key strokes are need to acquire a particular function, and as that was one of the reasons I sold my H2, I discounted it, and looked for an alternative.

The LS-10 still has a number of multiple keystroke operations, but far less than either the H2 or 4. It also looks to have a far superior & robust finish, and controls for the main functions than my previous machine.

In 1961 I had a Ford Zephyr 6 cylinder 2.5 litre motor car, which in today’s parlance would be known as an environmentally unfriendly gas-guzzler.

Today, approximately 30 vehicles later, I run a Ford Fiesta 1.5 4-cylinder diesel with an emissions rating below 120kg, which qualifies it for the £35 road tax bracket. In my modest way I try to move with the times, where I can afford to, I hasten to add.

When you get to my age, learning new skills gets more of a chore, patience becomes less, and intolerance sets in more readily, as you know. My aim at present is to improve my sound equipment to meet my current needs, so 18 months and three microphones later I don’t consider chopping and changing.

And as the sands of time run out ever quicker, and technology advances to my advantage, I may change something else, if again I feel it necessary, I can afford it, and it improves what I already have.

On Friday, I mentioned to you your new Bose speakers that you were using. I thought the previous ones were more than adequate, did I broadcast it on a public forum? no, maybe you would like to tell the forum why you chopped & changed?

I rest my case.

The Ford Zephyr shown was not the one I owned, all the paper photographic prints I had of it, have faded with time, which can be a problem with old technology and old age, the Fiesta is however mine, Note, the wife picked the colour .

Yachtsman1

[Big Kev]

Hi all,

I have been reading your comments with interest - I don't seem to get the time to come onto the forum quite as often as I used too!!!!

Re the Zoom H2 - I cannot comment on this machine as I took Peter's original advice published in AV News and purchased the H4. Yes it does have it's downsides - the small display being the main one - but I find that it is easy to use and set up. It works in most situations and is reasonably tollerant of different sound levels.

I was using mine last Saturday recording the choir that I am in at the Menin Gate in Ypers, Belgium and, after just putting back into it's carrying bag, I managed to drop it on to the marble pavement!!! It survived without a scratch and apart from jolting out the memory card - it appears to have suffered no ill effects. So it would seem from this unexpected test that it is actually quite robust!!!!!

The newer H4 has one big advantage - a bigger display!

Forget all the other perks - it being able to record four tracks at once and having a speaker built in etc. These are not really that usefull - you just need a machine that you can set up easily and use with the built in microphones. I hate the sound of my own voice but when I make a recording whilst listening to myself on headphones, it really does make you start to speak 'proper'!

Right now onto Davy's comments on Audacity - "I'm not knocking Audacity.It ticks a lot of boxes and biggest one is that it's free.It's a good learning tool,but having said that, it is a bit limited." Limited!!!! - it does as much if not more than Audition, it is far simpler to use, has hundreds of excellent help pages and will allow you to have tracks made with different sample rates running side by side. Just try putting a 8000hz sample rate sound effect track into Audition as the first track in a 'Session' - then try adding your superb music track or voice over done at 44,100hz in afterwards - it will not let you unless you allow them all to be downsampled to 8,000hz also.

In audacity you can play tracks made with different sample rates side by side without any problems and then select your export rate for the mixdown afterwards.

There is currently a new version of Audacity nearing completion to be known as version 1.4 - have a look at that -it has lots of new features and uses a new Lame mp3 encoder.

John (alias Big Kev)

[Bobo]

If anyone has an old Zoom H2 or similar to "ditch", I'd like to buy it!

[Big Kev]

How about one that had been dropped onto a marble floor by it's careful owner!!!!!

[coopernatural]

Right now onto Davy's comments on Audacity - "I'm not knocking Audacity.It ticks a lot of boxes and biggest one is that it's free.It's a good learning tool,but having said that, it is a bit limited." Limited!!!! - it does as much if not more than Audition, it is far simpler to use, has hundreds of excellent help pages and will allow you to have tracks made with different sample rates running side by side. Just try putting a 8000hz sample rate sound effect track into Audition as the first track in a 'Session' - then try adding your superb music track or voice over done at 44,100hz in afterwards - it will not let you unless you allow them all to be downsampled to 8,000hz also.

In audacity you can play tracks made with different sample rates side by side without any problems and then select your export rate for the mixdown afterwards.

There is currently a new version of Audacity nearing completion to be known as version 1.4 - have a look at that -it has lots of new features and uses a new Lame mp3 encoder.

John (alias Big Kev)

Hi John,

Audacity file formats 6+, limited editing, mixer no, video support no, batch rendering no, surround sound features no, analysis tool no.

Audition file formats 20+, full editing yes, mixer yes, video support yes, batch rendering yes, surround sound features yes, analysis tool yes.

Audacity support...Only if Jimmy is not doing a double shift in Burger King.

I agree that Audition is more difficult to learn,but once set up,easier to use.(for me and a few others anyway)

Putting a 8khz sample in along with a 44.1khz sample is something that I have never done,but won't be doing soon.

If the first track is referenced as the template rate,then put the 44.1khz track first or just resample the 8khz sample . For anything critical it's not a good idea to mix different sample rates.

The number crunching can lead to sync/drift issues.Not sure if Audacity is working on the fly resampling,but whatever way,I'll pass on 44.1khz and 8khz .

I will look out for the 1.4 version of Audacity.These things are just tools and I don't mind selecting bits out each. If they are free,all the better.

There is also a free trial of Audition for anybody who might be interested.

Davy

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Hi All

I have now completed initial tests of the Olympus LS-10 digital recorder. The written & photographic details are in the PDF file. The sound tests are in the mediafire link at the bottom of the links on this post. A quick explanation of the sound tests, They consist of a number of sound bytes with a 2 second gap between each one. The Mediafire file is 8.5mb & 9 minutes long. The sound bytes are as follows:

1 Voice Over for HMS Trincomalee using Zoom USB mike.

2 Voice over for Ripon Cathedral using the Olympus LS-10, as are all the following.

3 OB in local Chemists shop.

4 OB in Mini Supermarket.

5 OB in local hardware shop.

6 OB Ladies choir in village hall.

7 Ditto.

Yachtsman1.

http://www.trustedreviews.com/mp3/review/2...tal-Recorder/p1

http://www.transom.org/tools/recording_int...5_olympus_ls10/

http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/olympus-ls-10-review.html

http://www.olympus.co.uk/consumer/2581_dig...ls-10_18555.htm

http://www.ndeva.co.uk/index.php?88&ba...t_products=1183

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=8ad1243...e33725e6f44227a

Olympus_LS_10_write_up.r1.pdf

[Lin Evans]

Hi Davy,

I think for serious audio work, there is no question that Audition 3 is far superior to any free product - no question in my mind. The only real issue is "cost." When a product is well over $300 (perhaps closer to $400 U.S.D.) it seems to be reserved for only those who really need the bells and whistles. For simple editing, Audacity seems to be quite sufficient for most.

I would love to have Audition myself, but since I don't do a lot of demanding audio work, I use Audacity for most of my editing. For clubs where perhaps users can combine their funds to purchase a software for a commonly owned system, as long as it's not in violation of the software license agreement, I think Audition would be a wonderful addition.

For individuals like myself who are teetering on the "poverty" level with a fixed income, it's a bit over the present limit. Costs are one reason why I've not upgraded from Photoshop CS. It is "sufficient" for my purposes and within my budget right now. For those who have sufficient discretionary income, Audition would be a wonderful aid, no doubt!

Best regards,

Lin

[Lin Evans]

Hi Eric,

Thanks for this excellent report. Here's my take....

1 Voice Over for HMS Trincomalee using Zoom USB mike.

Clear, but a tad "booming" on the bass register. Perhaps because of the Zoom USB mike?

2 Voice over for Ripon Cathedral using the Olympus LS-10, as are all the following.

I prefer the sound on this one - was this using the built-in condenser mike on the Olympus?

In either case, the sound was clean, crisp and of excellent audio quality

3 OB in local Chemists shop.

As would be expected - lots of background noise but still quite possible to discern individual voices.

4 OB in Mini Supermarket.

Again - as you explain, lots of background but still clear.

5 OB in local hardware shop.

Less objectionable background but nice audio quality

6 & 7 OB Ladies choir in village hall.

Able to clearly discriminate voices and music. Not bad at all for a very portable digital recorder.

Can you tell me if this unit is configured so that you could plug it in to your computer and it would act as the microphone for a "live" AVI recording session of on-screen activity such as speaking when demonstrating PTE or other software? I've had a dickens of a time trying to find something which works consistently for me for this purpose...

Best regards,

Lin

[coopernatural]

Hi Davy,

I think for serious audio work, there is no question that Audition 3 is far superior to any free product - no question in my mind. The only real issue is "cost." When a product is well over $300 (perhaps closer to $400 U.S.D.) it seems to be reserved for only those who really need the bells and whistles. For simple editing, Audacity seems to be quite sufficient for most.

I would love to have Audition myself, but since I don't do a lot of demanding audio work, I use Audacity for most of my editing. For clubs where perhaps users can combine their funds to purchase a software for a commonly owned system, as long as it's not in violation of the software license agreement, I think Audition would be a wonderful addition.

For individuals like myself who are teetering on the "poverty" level with a fixed income, it's a bit over the present limit. Costs are one reason why I've not upgraded from Photoshop CS. It is "sufficient" for my purposes and within my budget right now. For those who have sufficient discretionary income, Audition would be a wonderful aid, no doubt!

Best regards,

Lin

Hi Lin,

You are quite right of course. Depends on what you want or need to do. The big one too is whether there are funds available for some of the overpriced software.

I needed to buy some expensive sound software recently. Sonar8 Producer.I contacted their sales people complaining about this think of a number pricing.

I plagued them and in the end they let me have it for half price!

Having seen one of your AVs it didn't lack anything in the visual or sound department.Quite the reverse.

Being friendly with one of the Adobe people,if I can track him down,I will see if I can blag a later release of Photoshop.

If so,it will have your name on it.

Regards,

Davy

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Hi Eric,

Thanks for this excellent report. Here's my take....

1 Voice Over for HMS Trincomalee using Zoom USB mike.

Clear, but a tad "booming" on the bass register. Perhaps because of the Zoom USB mike?

2 Voice over for Ripon Cathedral using the Olympus LS-10, as are all the following.

I prefer the sound on this one - was this using the built-in condenser mike on the Olympus?

In either case, the sound was clean, crisp and of excellent audio quality

3 OB in local Chemists shop.

As would be expected - lots of background noise but still quite possible to discern individual voices.

4 OB in Mini Supermarket.

Again - as you explain, lots of background but still clear.

5 OB in local hardware shop.

Less objectionable background but nice audio quality

6 & 7 OB Ladies choir in village hall.

Able to clearly discriminate voices and music. Not bad at all for a very portable digital recorder.

Can you tell me if this unit is configured so that you could plug it in to your computer and it would act as the microphone for a "live" AVI recording session of on-screen activity such as speaking when demonstrating PTE or other software? I've had a dickens of a time trying to find something which works consistently for me for this purpose...

Best regards,

Lin

Hi Lin

Thanks for the comments.

The built in stereo mikes with foam mufflers fitted were used on all the LS-10 recordings.

Re can it be used as a mike via USB, I have asked Olympus that very question, unfortunately they haven't replied. My guess is no using the USB connection, but probably yes using the LS-10 earphone jack to PC mike jack. The previous H2 I had could be used as you mention with USB, however when the LS-10 is connected via the USB connection it locks the controls & only allows the recording to be downloaded. Before plunging on either an LS-10 or an H2 I would suggest handling them, The LS-10 is more user friendly and gives better results. I will test if the mike jack can be accessed via Audacity & come back to you.

Bed time now.

Regards Eric

Up date

Hi Lin

Audacity picked up the LS-10 via the jack connections, so yes you could monitor recordings onto the LS-10 cards via Audacity.

Regards Eric.