Image Colour

[baldsparky]

Hi

I have just inserted an image into a new show I am beginning to make,

The image when inserted into PTE is a completely different colour to when viewed in windows, photoshop etc. This has never happened to me before.

I am using PTE 5.6.3

I have an Nvidia geforce 7600gs video card.

My monitor is calibrated with a Spyder 3 Elite calibration system.

I have uploaded 2 images showing the difference, especially noticeable in the stonework of the church and the colour of the grass.

Is there anybody that can point me in the right direction to help solve this problem, any help would be very much appreciated, as I say I have never had this problem before with this set up.

Kind regards

Paul

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Hi

I have just inserted an image into a new show I am beginning to make,

The image when inserted into PTE is a completely different colour to when viewed in windows, photoshop etc. This has never happened to me before.

I am using PTE 5.6.3

I have an Nvidia geforce 7600gs video card.

My monitor is calibrated with a Spyder 3 Elite calibration system.

I have uploaded 2 images showing the difference, especially noticeable in the stonework of the church and the colour of the grass.

Is there anybody that can point me in the right direction to help solve this problem, any help would be very much appreciated, as I say I have never had this problem before with this set up.

Kind regards

Paul

The only thing I can think may cause this is image size & how PTE is set up??

Yachtsman1

[baldsparky]

Hi

after further investigation I might have found what the problem is, I would appreciate it if someone could confirm if it might be the cause.

My original photo was saved in the prophoto rgb colour space, when I conveted this to srgb working colour space I get the difference in colours as shown in the PTE photo.

If this is the problem, does this mean that photographs used in PTE can only be saved in the srgb colour space and not any other?

Kind regards

Paul

[xahu34]

... If this is the problem, does this mean that photographs used in PTE can only be saved in the srgb colour space and not any other...

I think that you are on the right track! As far as I know: Most projectors can only produce sRGB images.

Regards,

Xaver

[davegee]

Paul,

Images need to be sRGB for PTE and for uploading to the web.

To see the difference it makes, use "Save for the Web..." and use an RGB image.

Then set the interface to "2-up" - you will then see the difference between the original and the JPG when saved.

If you change to sRGB before "Save for the Web..." there is no difference between the "2-up" images (colour-wise).

DaveG

[JRR]

Paul:

sRGB is the colour space generally used when the image will be used in non-colour managed software. Computer screens best deal with that when not colour managed

PTE is not colour managed, nor are most web browsers (I know there have been some attempts to do that - but generally most publishing to the web strips off the exif info that has the colour space info so it is a moot point)

PhotoShop, Bridge, Adobe premiere etc are all colour managed of course. Thunbsplus is, I am not sure about ACdsee.

Many people use RGB as there default colour space, some like you use Prophoto RGB as it is a very wide space. If you are doing prints, then it is important to use RGB, if not then many people tend to use eRGB as their default so they don't have to convert their images when being used in a non-colour managed space

[Guest Yachtsman1]

Re prints & colour mode, our local colour lab who are coincidentally called RGB state the following for prints from them:

Preparing Digital Images for printing (Needed for Level 1)

1.

Size the image to required print size (eg 8x10 inches) and set the image resolution (dpi/ppi) between 250 and 400ppi.

FIND OUT HOW, CLICK HERE

2.

Supply all files as JPEG (at maximum quality) or 8 bit TIFF files, with no tiff compression. (We prefer jpegs)

3.

Make sure all your images are saved as an sRGB colour profile (you may see this as sRGB IEC61966-2.1).

AdobeRGB & ProRGB will give dark, flat results HOW TO CONVERT, CLICK HERE

4.

Place all images into folders with the print sizes forming part of the folder name. Eg folder name: "6x8_Lustre_1off each".

Where multiple copies of an image are required at the same size, create a new folder with a name to reflect the quantity

of prints required, eg "6x8_lustre_3off each.

I know it's off topic but contradicts what one post said.

Yachtsman1

[JRR]

I know it's off topic but contradicts what one post said.

Yachtsman1

yes some commercial labs work in sRGB, home printers (which I was referring to, but did not state) tend to use RGB

Always check with your local lab

Different strokes for different folks

[Peter S]

If you shoot RAW and you use Lightroom you may notice that Lightroom actually works in ProphotoRGB (or something very close to that) because that provides a much wider colour gamut. If you print using Lightroom you do NOT have to concern yourself with converting to sRGB. BUT....if you want to display/project images and/or send them to other people who do not have colour managed systems you should always convert to sRGB and this is true for all PTE shows.

Kind regards

Peter

[potwnc]

3.

Make sure all your images are saved as an sRGB colour profile (you may see this as sRGB IEC61966-2.1).

AdobeRGB & ProRGB will give dark, flat results HOW TO CONVERT, CLICK HERE

This can be true if you don't know what you're doing and/or if you print on low-cost paper using a low-cost workflow. It sounds like this company does all the above.

When I print I want the printed version to be as close as possible to the original photo. Since my printer is an Epson (Stylus Photo R1800), it came with color profiles for various Epson papers. So if I'm printing to, say, Epson Premium Glossy Photo Paper I will assign the image in Photoshop (as well as set my monitor) to that color profile (and not sRGB) so I can see what the printed version will actually look like. If it's too dark I will increase the brighness in Photoshop. For this company to make a flat statement that "AdobeRGB & ProRGB will give dark, flat results" as though that's somehow inevitable shows they either don't understand color management or just can't be bothered to take the steps necessary to get the customer's print looking good/right.

As for "Images need to be sRGB for PTE" I'd like to know what that's based on. Unless I plan to produce a .exe file none of my images are sRBG and PTE works fine for me.

If you're producing video output it makes no sense to use sRGB as your color space. You'd want to use NTSC, HDTV or PAL/SECAM.

I hope Igor can/will confirm that, for video output, PTE preserves the input color space of the original images. If it doesn't that's a very serious design flaw.

[Guest Yachtsman1]

We had a new member in our club this year, he uses RGB Colour Labs for his prints. Is it a coincidence that he won 3 & was highly place in all the club's competitions??? For a colour lab to go through the process you suggest for each individual print would be impossible and not cost effective. The suggestions they make for preparing images for printing must compliment their equipment not a run of the mill printer.

Yachtsman1

This link will take you to their site, you need to register for their Professional information.

http://www.rgb-labs.co.uk/lab/3

[davegee]

potwnc,

Images don't HAVE TO BE sRGB for PTE or the web.

However, if you compare the RGB images saved as JPEG with the originals (side by side) you will see a difference in the colour between the originals and the JPEGs (mainly in the skies).

PTE shows made up of RGB JPEGs will, I'm pretty sure, look magnificent but will not display the same colour characteristcs as the originals when viewed side by side.

Please see my previous post (#5) and, if you are so disposed, try it for yourself.

The OP saw the difference and was looking for an explanation.

DaveG

[mbskels]

Paul:

PTE is not colour managed ....

The issue raised by OP has been raised several times before with much the same outcome - several replies regarding colour management that tend to cloud the issue rather than clarify it.

Perhaps it is time to have a definitive statement from the software creators regarding this issue. Is JRR correct in his assertion that PTE is not colour managed ie embedded profiles in images in PTE slideshows are disregarded when the final exe file is displayed?

[baldsparky]

Paul,

Images need to be sRGB for PTE and for uploading to the web.

To see the difference it makes, use "Save for the Web..." and use an RGB image.

Then set the interface to "2-up" - you will then see the difference between the original and the JPG when saved.

If you change to sRGB before "Save for the Web..." there is no difference between the "2-up" images (colour-wise).

DaveG

Hi

Dave thanks for your explanation.

I would like to run something by you if I may.

If I process my photo in RGB colour space in photoshop and then use your method above, you are right there is a very noticeable shift in colour to the image that gets saved.

The thing I don't understand is this, when I use the new colour shifted image in PTE it then looks exactly the same as it did when I processed it as the RGB image in photoshop.

So my conclusion is this, if I process an image in photoshop in the prophotoRGB colour space until I am happy with it, then use the save for web feature, save the image, although the colours have altered, if I then use this new saved image (altered colours) in PTE, it displays in PTE as the original did in photoshop.

Is this how it should be, or have I not grasped something?

Many thanks

Kind regards

Paul.

[davegee]

Paul,

I always shoot in sRGB in camera and process in RGB. There's a reason for this, but it is irrelevent here.

The process for creating a JPEG for PTE is as follows. (For printing it is different).

NX2 converts the RAW file to RGB and I do my initial PP (as much as possible) before sending to CS4 as an RGB TIF file for final processing, cropping etc. (My default colour space in NX2 and CS4 is RGB).

Two things need to be done before saving as JPEG:

1) Convert to 8 bit

2) Convert back to sRGB

This can be done manually but I choose to create an action which I assign to the F4 key and it converts to 8 Bit, changes the colour profile to sRGB and opens the "Save for the web..." dialogue ready for making final adjustments to JPEG quality and assessing any JPEG artifacts by using the "2-up" option. It also has the advantage of showing immediately if there are any (accidental) colour issues. I find that a clear blue sky is usually a dead giveaway.

1 Button press and it is done.

Save the JPEG and in PTE the sRGB version will look identical to the RGB version in CS4.

DaveG

[mbskels]

Hi

So my conclusion is this, if I process an image in photoshop in the prophotoRGB colour space until I am happy with it, then use the save for web feature, save the image, although the colours have altered, if I then use this new saved image (altered colours) in PTE, it displays in PTE as the original did in photoshop.

Is this how it should be, or have I not grasped something?

Unfortunately it is not possible to discuss your issue properly until we know for definite if PTE strips/ignores embedded profiles as JRR asserts.

[baldsparky]

Hi

Dave, thanks for your reply and explanation in post 15.

I find though that if I follow your step no2 and convert the rgb back to srgb before using the save for web feature of photoshop then the resulting saved jpg when displayed in PTE shows a colour shift.

I find though that using the save for web feature on the rgb file direct although the resulting saved jpg exhibits a colour shift, when displayed in PTe it shows no colour shift at all, and looks the same as the rgb did in CS3.

Thanks for all your help

Kind regards

Paul

[mbskels]

I find though that if I follow your step no2 and convert the rgb back to srgb before using the save for web feature of photoshop then the resulting saved jpg when displayed in PTE shows a colour shift.

I find though that using the save for web feature on the rgb file direct although the resulting saved jpg exhibits a colour shift, when displayed in PTe it shows no colour shift at all, and looks the same as the rgb did in CS3.

As I said in a previous post surely it is now long overdue for a definitive statement by the software team on how PTE handles untagged images and images with embedded profiles before any more confusion is created?

This issue crops up repeatedly on the forum and is followed by all sorts of misinformed statements regarding colour management in PS, PTE, printing, and web which can only serve to confuse.

Surely it is time to clear up this issue?

NB: to discuss the save for the web facility in PS it is necessary to define the PS version being used and the options selected in the process. They radically alter the output in terms of colour management.

[davegee]

Paul,

I don't get the same result as you.

No matter what version of Photoshop going back to PS6 I have always had the same result as described above.

Change to sRGB immediately before going to "Save for the Web.." - the before and after will always show "identical" colour in the "2-up" display.

The saved JPEG (sRGB) when viewed in PTE always looks like the sRGB version before saving. If I don't change from RGB to sRGB then the saved JPEG will display a different colour in the "after" version of the "2-up" display and also when the JPEG is used in PTE.

I always use a blue sky to judge whether there is a change in colour and this is where I think it will be most pronounced if the change to sRGB is not done.

I don't know what I'm doing wrong but I can definitely say that I must have been doing it consistently wrong since PS6, PS7, CS, CS2, CS3 and now CS4.

DaveG

[baldsparky]

dave

when you change fron rgb to srgb before going to save for web, does this not alter the colour of your image dramatically?

Paul

[davegee]

No Paul,

....and possibly the answer as to why is that I shoot in sRGB in camera and when this is changed to RGB in NX2, no colour shift takes place because RGB is a wider colour space.

Any alterations I make in NX2 or PS are possibly going to take colours outside of the sRGB space - I don't know for sure.

It seems likely that any changes to a blue sky are going to be influenced because that's where the differences are (to me) most evident when changing to JPEG.

Changing from RGB to sRGB before saving as JPEG doesn't seem to influence the colours that much, but the process of changing from TIF to JPEG does have an effect on colours especially blues.

I would emphasise that I am refering to images (JPEGS) introduced into PTE or the Web - none of this refers to images for printing.

These are purely my observations - nothing technical.

DaveG

[mbskels]

As I said in a previous post surely it is now long overdue for a definitive statement by the software team on how PTE handles untagged images and images with embedded profiles before any more confusion is created?

Well I guess the answer to my request is - No.

So we can continue to have fun chasing shadows.

Paul,

I don't know what I'm doing wrong but I can definitely say that I must have been doing it consistently wrong since PS6, PS7, CS, CS2, CS3 and now CS4.

DaveG

DaveG - I believe (do not have it myself) that the default options in SFW in CS4 are radically different from previous versions. If you have not changed the defaults SFW in CS4 automatically converts to sRGB and strips any embedded profile. Previous versions did not convert to sRGB by default - you had to tick the box "convert to sRGB" if you wanted that to happen.

Your workflow as described (convert to sRGB and strip profile) is adopted by web designers because many browsers apply a default monitor profile (usually sRGB) to untagged images. I suspect PTE may also do so although without further info it is almost impossible to determine. Whether there is a difference between v4 and v5 also - who knows? Only the developers.

[davegee]

mbskels,

I believe that you may have a point about SFW!

I described the SFW "2-up" method because I thought that it best described the differences without having to insert the images into PTE to see the differences.

Leaving SFW aside for a moment, there is a definite shift in colour when an RGB image is saved as a JPEG without first changing to sRGB and using "save as".

If the image is changed to sRGB then the process of "save as" JPEG does not introduce a colour shift. Side by side viewing in PTE makes the differences obvious, particularly in blue skies.

This applies to un-edited images.

DaveG

[MikeL117]

@mbskels

It has been stated many times (and by Igor himself) that PTE is NOT colour aware/managed.

PTE does not alter the colour information in any way so if you have set up (and even calibrated) your system as sRGB, as most resemble 'out-of-the-box', then you sRGB profiled files will be seen exactly (well as near as...) as they were After they were converted to sRGB in Photoshop or your preferred program. If you are lucky enough to have a system calibrated to AdobeRGB then you should use AdobeRGB calibrated files and they will look the same (unfortunately only on your system, they will look different on most other systems). The above ignores the ATI bug of throwing away the System calibration Before you run your PTE show.

@davegee

You don't NEED to convert to sRGB for your images to work but you do NEED to convert to sRGB for the colours to be as close as possible to you original, wanted colours. As you have noticed most colours in the AdobeRGB colour space are also in a similar place in the sRGB colour space so for many images you do can 'get away with' not converting. Photoshop has tools for 'soft proofing' to see the effect of converting and not converting so you can see what the final result is likely to be. If you are working in ProPhotoRGB I would suggest you ALWAYS NEED to convert as the colours (and luminosity) can be VERY different most of the time.

It would be nice if it was colour managed but for the main use of PTE it is not needed, in fact as you may know, being colour managed opens a whole new 'can-of-worms' including what rendering intent do you used. There is enough, often misinformed or over critical, debate regarding PTE's rather good resizing ability.

Colour conversion is something that really should be done by a person rather automatically, most images will convert without any unfortunate colour shifts depending on you choosing the most appropriate rendering method (usually a choice between Relative Colormetric and Perceptual) but some, particularly if they have been edited in a wide gamut profile such as ProPhotoRGB, will need some attention after converting to get some colours closer to what you intended.

As for Photoshop and 'Save for Web', version CS2 and before do not convert from the original colour space before saving as JPEG so your images WILL be wrong (however they look) if you have not converted before trying to save. From version CS3 Save for Web does convert to sRGB so the colours will 'correct' but may not be quite what you want.

Colour management is a mine-field as colour is perceived and interpreted by the brain and each different brain will interpret this information in slightly different ways and the relationship between colours even more so (try taking the colour test at x-rite). As anyone who has been involved in club competitions will be fully aware colour combinations that are perfectly acceptable to one person are totally hideous to another.

I seem to have got a little carried away - again- to get back to the original post.

As others have already said you do NEED to convert to sRGB before you save to get the colours as you would prefer.

As you are using ProPhotoRGB I will assume (I cant read your original post from here) 16 bit (there is little point in using 8bit and wide gamut) so the process I would recommend is:

1. Duplicate and flatten your image

(duplicating prevents you accidentally saving a flattened version over your original file, flatten as converting profiles can and does affect how the layers interact)

2. Convert to sRGB using Relative Colorimetric intent

(if you are not happy with the conversion try Perceptual intent - the other intents are unlikely to improve on your conversion for a photograph. If you are still unhappy then you will need to bring the affected colours closer to what is available in the small sRGB space. There are many methods of doing this some completely counter intuative and far too involved to go into here- I have gone on much too long as it is -

3. Convert to 8bit

(with dither)

4. Resize to your final size

(you may prefer to resize before converting to 8bit, I see little difference YMMV)

5. Apply your final sharpening

(by whatever method you choose - If you resize using Bicubic Sharper you may not need any extra, in fact it may be too sharp - Both resizing and reducing to 8bit remove some of the edge data and soften the image so may need to correct for that)

6. Save as JPEG

(again using your preferred method, I use Save for Web as it gives me a direct preview of the final result quicker than Save and lets me choose the optimum compression for the image and use)

If anyone has waded to the end here, well done. As always these are my ideas and methods but with many years of experience and often learning the hard way

Mike

[davegee]

Well put Mike!

I have been doing things in a rather different order regarding your last 5 out 6 points but it might be worth experimenting with a change of order.

Your point about Luminosity is also relevent as I am seeing a consistent change in luminosity when using SFW between original and output (lighter).

I will continue to use my little action to change from 16 bit to 8 bit, flatten the image and change from RGB to sRGB before "saving as" but with caution.

DaveG